ST Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in the ST

I

I think Snoke is afraid of being overthrown by Kylo. He trained him enough to be his enforcer when there wasn't any Jedi around. I don't think he ever planned on completing his training. Now that someone who is strong with the force has challenged him, Snoke knows it's absolutely necessary to complete his training. Both of them will also try to seduce Rey to the darkside for their own purposes

 

I don't disagree that it foundation of the Jedi collapse was largely based on their own actions. Those are all great points.

I do disagree with the idea that the force being in balance means no sith or dark Jedi, or just generally dark force users. Too Much of one thing can be a bad thing. Look at the reign of the Jedi and in episode 3 how off-guard, complacent, and away from their true selves they became as a result of this imbalance.

Cap it off with yoda saying "a prophecy misread could have been", and maybe the result of Bringing balance to the force was a message that said "get up on your feet, be aware, don't get comfortable, wake up".

There are going to be threats to peace. Palpatine, And Snoke after that.

With that being said, I think Snoke is a new character with a much storied past. I do hope his intentions are more than just seeking power or that would be boring. I am excited for more to be revealed in the next movie. He seems to definitely be after Luke. Maybe he has something that Snoke wants, maybe something related to a means of immortality.

 

Has anyone mentioned the possibility of Snoke being the Grand Inquisitor from Rebels? The Grand Inquisitor was a bad ass dark side of the force user. Trained by Vader, never intended to be a Sith. Logical, analytical, not really into all the mystical stuff. A guy who really thought compassion was the worst thing. Snoke is the same way. Thought that Vader's sentimentality destroyed the Empire. I mean, Palpatine, I think he destroyed the Republic and created the Empire because he was a sicko that got off on his own power, who hated the Jedi. But the Grand Inquisitor? You feel like he really loved the Empire. Snoke looks like a severely injured Grand Inquisitor. Couldn't he have survived his supposed death? And laid low, being damaged and unable to defeat Sidious and Vader, until the Empire fell, at which point he got to work infiltrating the Solo family and corrupting Ben Solo?

Plus, no name change is necessary. This is easily the most likely scenario to me.

C'mon now, Where do you think Kylo Ren learned his interrogation technique from?

I think we're going to see a lot of the mysteries of this film fleshed out in the animated series' and Anthology films. I suspect we'll learn more about Lor San Tekka in Rogue One. Maybe Rey's mother as well.

 

That idea of the Grand Inquisitor being Snoke ravaged my small brain Saturday night so much that I actually couldn't sleep LOL. I am working on a piece on it but my conclusion is it's not him. But boy does he really fit.

 

I think I read somewhere he was corrupting Ben for pretty much his whole life. I'm thinking he was a politician who was at the beginning working with the whole republic. He probably was keeping tabs on Luke and company by acting as a friend. He probably started siding with the Empire friendly governors and began corrupting Ben from birth. At some point he made his powerplay to take control of the Galaxy and revealed his intentions. He transformed Ben into Kylo Ren and sent the KOR to take out the Academy while Luke was in search of him. He fought Luke and barely escaped with his life (reason for his scars). He moved back to the outer rim were he has had the First Order waiting the whole time. Instead of moving into control through the government, he had to go with plan B (Starkiller base and taking over by force).

 

Let's begin with who is involved. JJ Abrams has made clear that he intends to honor the prequel trilogy and that he will not change the canon of anything Lucas did. Lawrence Kasdan and Kathleen Kennedy were involved in Star Wars as much as anyone besides Lucas. Disney, for their part, still want to cash in on the whole series. All of it. Not just the old trilogy or the sequel trilogy. They purchased everything and I can guarantee they want to cash in on merchandise from the PT just as much as the OT. So let's just summarize and say that for all parties involved, creating a final three episode sequel trilogy that includes the prior six films as part of the lore makes more money, and pleases more people, than creating a trilogy that only honors the OT.

With that in mind, let's also remember that one of Lucas's ideas with the prequel trilogy was that you could watch it first, or the OT first. It doesn't matter. It tells a compelling story either way. The new filmmakers will want to stick with that idea as well. They want viewers of the sequel trilogy, especially young audiences, curious about the precursor films enough to buy them. There is a reason they are sticking with the episodic structure - and is not only about making money, but also about properly finishing the story or the circle so to speak.

How do you do that?

It has to be poetic. It has to be epic. It has to be fun. But most importantly, it has to have a beginning and an ending, especially if that ending leads you right back to where everything started. The story of Anakin Skywalker. Now I know for some people the "true" story begins with Luke and Leia. If you see it that way that's great, then the prequels serve as a prologue and are still part of the lore and this sequel trilogy must properly address that.

So who is Anakin Skywalker?

In my opinion, the best thing about the prequels (aside from Ewan McGregor, and ring composition if you're into that) was the ambiguity of Skywalker's birth. Qui Gon Jinn and the Jedi believe Anakin is the "chosen one" created by the force itself to bring balance. Conveniently for the Jedi, they believe balance means only Jedi exist and there are no Sith or dark side users. Lucas did a good job here in the prequels of letting the audience implicitly believe in the Jedi. Why? Because they're Jedi. But then the narrative plays out and we realize the Jedi are flawed; extremely flawed in many ways. They are insular and borderline arrogant. Remember the scene with Obi Wan in the library where the Jedi librarian dismisses the Kamino system as not existing because it isn't in their archives. Even Yoda concedes in ROTS that the prophecy may have been misread regarding Anakin.

Which leads directly into Palpatine's seduction of Anakin at the Opera. This scene, in my opinion, is the most important scene in all of the prequel trilogy. In the background Anakin and Palpatine are watching some sort of light show opera that ominously resembles an egg and sperm - the makings of life. It is also in this scene that Palpatine reveals the history of Darth Plagueis the Wise. This Sith Lord, according to Palpatine, had the ability to cheat death and even create life. The implications here are huge. This reveal turns Anakin's whole existence into an anti-prophecy of sorts. Now, Anakin clearly has no idea that Palpatine is hinting at his own creation and is focused more on saving Padme so he thinks nothing of it. The audience, however, is left with uncertainty regarding Anakin's creation. Did the Force create him? Did Plagueis create him? Is he the chosen one?

Let's skip ahead (or back) now to Return of the Jedi. Vader destroys the Emperor bringing supposed balance to the force as was prophesied. But was it exactly as the Jedi had foreseen? They were wrong about a number of other predictions and understandings. Isn't it possible, or even likely the Jedi idea that balance means only Jedi exist is wrong. What if balance means one Jedi and one Sith? We, as an audience, have incorrectly trusted Jedi statements in the PT when in fact they have been wrong on multiple occasions. Why should this be any different? Moreover, if you think back through the films no Sith that I can remember has ever told an outright lie. When Obi Wan is confronted by Dooku on Geonosis Dooku tells Obi Wan the truth - that the republic is being controlled by a Sith Lord. When Luke meets Vader for the first time, Vader tells Luke the truth - he is his father. When Luke confronts Palpatine, Palpatine tells Luke the truth - it's a trap. The sith, at least in the films, don't appear to be liars. Moreover, Palpatine tells Anakin that he, Palpatine, killed Plagueis in his sleep after Plagueis lost his power.

Now let's pause for a moment and talk about Obi Wan Kenobi. Lucas and others have discussed that the battle between Obi Wan and Vader on Mustafar was largely inspired by the battle between the Archangel Michael and the fallen angel Lucifer. Lucifer, in the Judeo-Christian myths was God's favorite angel. But when he turned against God, God turned to his most loyal angel, Michael, to cast Lucifer into hell. This is of course Obi Wan. Loyal to a fault Obi Wan spent the entire prequel trilogy following the Jedi counsel nearly without question. He chastised his former Master Qui Gon for questioning the counsel and obeyed them without question even in moments of discomfort such as when they asked Obi Wan to have Anakin spy on Palpatine (an extremely inappropriate request for those protecting democracy. The chancellor was elected lest we forget).

Where has all of this loyalty to the counsel and the Jedi code gotten obi wan? He has lost everything he believed in. The Jedi have been wiped out. The Republic has fallen into the hands of a Sith dictator. He has nearly killed his best friend, who he viewed as a brother, at the behest of the Jedi order and it has brought nothing but darkness upon him.

Let's skip ahead (or back?) to A New Hope. Here we meet Ben Kenobi. An old man with clear anguish and sadness about him. He is a solitary hermit watching over the son of a man he tried to kill, a man who was once his best friend. Why does he go by the name of Ben? Conventional wisdom says he's hiding from the Empire, but I'm not sure I believe that. Obi Wan has nothing to fear of Vader. He's defeated him when Vader was in his prime. Certainly he isn't afraid of a half-machine. Importantly, Obi Wan never said he was going into hiding - Yoda did but not Obi Wan. Now you have to ask yourself, does Obi Wan Kenobi really seem like the type to hide from Vader? And if he was going to hide from Vader, would he be stupid enough to keep the same last name? Let's combine all of that with the fact that Obi Wan specifically tells Luke "I was ONCE a Jedi Knight the same as your father." This is explicitly in the past tense. With all of that information, does it not seem more likely Obi Wan left the Jedi order after the events of the PT because he lost his faith? In leaving the Jedi he changed his name to Ben as a symbol for his change in piety.

So far my theory has presented that Anakin may have been created by the sith, and Obi Wan may have voluntarily withdrew from the Jedi code after the tragedy that befell him. Let's now look at The Force Awakens. What do we know? We know the new Jedi order was wiped out by Kylo Ren one Snoke turned him to the dark side. We know that Luke has disappeared and withdrawn into hiding. We know that Kylo Ren is dedicated to "finishing what his grandfather started" and that Snoke has taught him to fear being seduced by the light.

What is one thing that could truly cause Luke to lose faith and lose heart? What is one thing that could simultaneously turn a young Ben Solo against Luke and his family in blind allegiance to Vader - with a fear of being seduced by the light. The answer is if Snoke is indeed Darth Plageuis and he revealed to both Luke and Kylo their true ancestry.

Imagine Luke Skywalker finds out that not only was his father Darth Vader, a man of incredible tragedy and evil, but that his father was also created by a Sith Lord. This is essentially the equivalent of learning your father was the anti-Christ. You also learn that everything you have done, all you have sacrificed, has been futile because the creator of your evil father has returned. Anyone would lose faith. Anyone would lose heart. So he withdraws to isolation waiting for a sign that the force is with him once more.

This not only explains Luke's actions, but also Kylo's. If the theory that Snoke is Plaguies is correct, then presumably Snoke has filled Kylo's mind with what Vader could have been, indeed what he should have been save for that pesky Obi Wan who seduced Anakin with the light. Kylo fears the light because he fears it will prevent him from being as powerful as the true Darth Vader - the Vader that should have been.

Enter Rey Kenobi. After Obi Wan lost faith and left the Jedi order becoming Obi Wan he fell in love on Tatooine. He did this only for it once again to end in tragedy and in fear that Vader would come to kill his children he had them sent away. The descendent of Obi Wan Kenobi, Rey Kenobi, was found by Luke but then hidden away after Kylo destroyed the Jedi temple. Because Luke, with his newfound knowledge of his ancestry, has lost faith he has his old mentor's granddaughter hidden away to live a life in peace away from the pain and torment of the Skywalker disaster that has brought nothing but pain upon the Galaxy. Luke leaves a map of his whereabouts and waits for a sign that the force is with him once more.

Let me break for a moment and say that I firmly believe Kylo Ren will turn to the light side. His lack of a menacing John Williams theme was extremely noticeable - even Darth Maul had his own theme.

The sign Luke has been waiting for arrives in the form of Rey Kenobi handing him the same light saber her grandfather once gave to Luke as well. It's a message to once again be the Jedi he was supposed to be. Rey Kenobi then succeeds where her ancestor Obi Wan failed, she somehow turns Kylo Ren to the light and together a Skywalker (Ben Solo) and a Kenobi (Rey Kenobi) confront a destroy the Knights of Ren and the Sith Lord Plagueis. The circle is now firmly compete.

Importantly, if Kylo Ren dies in a sacrificial manner during this battle, as I believe his crucifix light saber foreshadows, then the Skywalkers will have finally brought balance to the force. The Jedi prophecy of the prequels as well as the creation of Anakin by Plaguies will have both been proved true.

One last note. Many people in discussions of Plagueis seem to object to the idea that a "more powerful" Sith Lord than Palpatine has just been hiding. I think this notion is misplaced. Just because Plageuis mastered the ability to cheat death and create life does not make him a match for Palpatine/Sidious in a strait up fight, especially with how Palpatine managed to maneuver himself into the political power that he was. In the same way that Qui Gon Jinn learned to become one with the force, but was by no means more powerful that Yoda or Obi Wan, a Darth Plageuis could also learn mysterious dark powers without being a match for his own apprentice. Moreover, the motivation for Palgeuis in creating Anakin on some backwater like Tatooine makes perfect sense if he was hiding it from his powerful apprentice. Creating a slave boy who was going nowhere and wait for the moment to fake your own death and then use him against a more powerful apprentice seems like a logical and well conceived plan. It failed initially because the Jedi came across the boy first by chance (or the force?) and then war broke out across the galaxy. A Wise Sith Lord like Palgeuis would then simply bide his time waiting for the Jedi and his former apprentice to destroy each other.

 

Direct all talk about Darth Plagueis to one of the threads titled Darth Plagueis. I would say THE thread titled Darth Plagueis but I guess dilusion has no boundaries.

 

Great post.

 

I can go with this. He has a slight resemblance to the grand inquisitor if he was messed up really bad. If it is then he must have became a lot more powerful and gained more knowledge about the darkside. How do you suppose he did this?

 

I really like this idea. Remains to be seen but would be very cool.

 

How about this theory...

Snoke was a dark-side user who attempted to take Vader's place at Palpatine's side, and was thought to have been mortally wounded by Vader between ROTS and ANH...

-He "saw" the rise and fall of the Empire (so he had to be around during at least the end of the clone wars)
-He used the dark-side and led the knights of Ren on a remote planet (sort of like Xizor led the black Sun)
-The knights gained notice from the Emporer and Vader
-Upon meeting the Emporer, Snoke worshiped Palpatine's power and wanted to be Palpatine's new apprentice
-Palps new this, and pitted Snoke and the knights of Ren against Vader somehow
-Snoke attempted to replace Vader, and Vader kicked his tail, slashing his face, leaving him for dead
-He (being a dark-side user), watched the events of the galaxy unfold from a distance, his physical wounds keeping him out of the fray
-He hated Vader for 1-nearly killing him; 2-killing the emporer (who he worshiped and admired) and 3-succumbing to the light
-He has two objectives: 1-restore the empire (he is passionate about finishing what Palpatine started, just as Ben is passionate about finishing what Vader failed to do) and 2- destroy the Skywalker family (what better way than to use Vader's grandson as a pawn to destroy all that Anakin Skywalker held dear, namely his family)

Personally, I think this would be a cool angle. Not only that, it gives them the ability to show Vader slashing Snoke in a flashback scene (I believe they would be anxious to get Vader on screen however they could)

In Christ forever,
Mike
John 3:16

 

That was a great post, I would love to see how this would play out. How would you suppose he became as powerful as he is now? Studying the darkside or process of elimination (Palpatine and Vader are dead now).

 

Thanks! Personally, I would go with process of elimination. This would keep Palps and Vader's status as the best of the baddies.

This could also explain why he seduced Ben. He knew that he could never defeat Luke, as he is too frail thanks to the beating Luke's pops laid on him. That said, he still has more dark-side knowledge than anyone in the galaxy, but needs someone younger, like Ben, to be the muscle of the operation.


In Christ forever,
Mike
John 3:16

 

Oh, almost forgot...

This sets up for an awesome Anthology movie between ROTS and ANH...

Vader v. Snoke



In Christ forever,
Mike
John 3:16

 

I'm really hoping they give an Anthology movie to a character or event referenced in this trilogy. If they don't then it just says they are banking off of the nostalgia and past of Star Wars. I was kind of pissed to find out they don't plan on having any Episode 7 content for battlefront. If they want to make Star Wars great again, they will have to keep pushing the story forward.

 

By the way, it's true that Jedi have lied more than Sith. But, Palpatine does lie to Anakin when he tells him that he killed Padme.

 

Kudos man, that's a brilliant idea/theory.

I'd get behind all of it.

 

It would be cool if Snoke's homeworld is called "Had Abbadon" because that's what Coruscant was called in the OT-era screenplays.

 

Let's not forget that Serkis himself referred to Snoke as "Lord" in a pre-release interview. That title has a very specific application in the Star Wars universe. In the novelization he is in Reys head telling her to kill Kylo, he is vulnerable according to Serkis. 7 foot tall with a reconstructed nose.and significant facial scarring. Given these FACTS about Snoke who do you think he is, remember that Lord Snoke limits the options because unless he is an ancient dark side user who uses that title.outside.the order.of.the Sith (unlikely), he is a Sith Lord. Here is my catch OTHER than Plaguies.

 

The very first Darth, the creator of the Sith as we know them, your avatar!

 

Yes that's my inclination but I am far from debating opposing views I need help to.think outside my self-constructed box. Using the facts we know about Snoke.

 

Pablo himself stated that the scene in clone wars that I used for.my avatar was in fact a vision of Yoda's that it's not.really Bane. So the character is Canon but the fact is he hasn't been proven to have survived so he is dead, and therefore, for now, eliminated from contention.

 

What do you think of the theory that Bane essence transferred into each of Sith master? Maybe Snoke is his true body and Bane was himself one of the people he possessed?

 

Well I.like.it. it evidence.to prove my guess. However, it's not Canon unfortunately.

 

Aren't all "Lord" characters dead as far as canon goes?

Anyway, another theory I've considered is that Snoke was a rival of the Sith and was Palpatine's true master. He had Palpatine infiltrate and then destroy the Sith by apprenticing himself to Plagueis.