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TFA TLJ Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by dlbates, Dec 20, 2015.

  1. Mungo Baobab

    Mungo Baobab Woefully whimsical Whill of New Films star 4 Staff Member Manager

    Dec 2, 2014
    Another article on the technical process involved in realising Snoke, including some more insight into how the look of the character shifted from TFA to TLJ.

    "Neal Scanlan, Creature And Special Make-up Effects Creative Supervisor, was given an opportunity to make a new maquette of Snoke for the new Star Wars film, and that took the character towards having more human skin, withered with aging. For the Snoke's previous appearance in The Force Awakens, that film's director J.J. Abrams and Neal Scanlan didn't want the character to look old and decrepit like Darth Sidious. Ivan Manzella sculpted at least two busts for the original look of the character, and his skin was far less human. The new Snoke required a technical reworking by the ILM team. "That really pushed us into a different world", comments Morris. "Snoke is more damaged but in a far more subtle and refined way".
  2. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 14, 2015
    Sorry. That was a quick response. Unedited too. No, I’m not Legends. Though the Legions of Lettow.

    I believe Plagueis being alive during TPM is a mistake.

    I like Luceno and was happy to hear he’d be doing the Plagueis novel. We’d learn more about this mysterious master of Palpatine—and more about Palpatine. And I was disappointed when the novel was cancelled.

    The novel when finally published was very good. It wove togetherany things and we learned a lot about the Sith, particularly Sidious, his master, and his master’s master. And we learned about how they functioned in the GFFA in their public identities. We also learn about how Anakin came into being. And who isn’t in this novel, Sith or Jedi?

    Plagueis is a very interesting character too. And he would have been a mastermind for the events for the PT to unfold. Palpatine, nameless in Darth Plagueis and Sheev in Tarkin (both worked for me), in the latter novel pays respect to his late master’s genius as a mastermind.

    However, I think Sidious should have killed Plagueis long before TPM. I think it’s a bit anticlimactic that he still is No. 2 then.

    Fortunately, DP isn’t canon.

    And I was worried Snoke might upstage Palpatine. Perhaps Snoke is more powerful than Palpatine and was the dark side power that contacted/was discovered by Palpatine. I worried given the speculation that Palpatine May have become unwittingly the puppet of Snoke and least was manipulated.

    So, while a DP-esque novel for Snoke would be great, I hope the Legends DP isn’t resurrected. Or at least his being around during TPM shouldn’t be resurrected.

    And as this is the Snoke thread, it’d be great to learn how Snoke knew of the events of the PT, in particular the throne room scene in ROTJ. And if he was that dark side source in the UR.
  3. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 1, 2005
    I'm intrigued by how a big part of the change was to the texture/color of his skin as opposed to just structural/scarring changes made to make him more threatening. Once again we also hear how they "corrected" the more deformed posture and gait that Serkis performed. I think it likely that Serkis was working with the character that he and JJ had developed together during TFA. I wonder whether Rian gave him much input on Snoke or instead left Serkis to perform the character as he thought best, since he had more experience with it.

    These lines especially drew my attention:

    "There was something almost gelatinous and zombie about Snoke's Hologram-look before . . ."

    "Snoke's eyes are essentially human, as the Director always saw the character as a 'messed up human'."

    I do not imagine that is literal, since Snoke's height was still up in the air. But it's intriguing that his look went from something less human and more ghoulish with JJ to something that is more "real." Some of this is likely for his character to actually feel more real, but I wonder if any of this corresponds to a change in backstory.

    What I gather from what we knew of Snoke from TFA and JJ's development is that he was a more monstrous, horror creature, deformed by the dark side over time but originally more beautiful, in an inhuman sense, like a marble statue or an elvish version of the Engineers from Prometheus. If you look at that concept art of a younger Snoke, he's even mostly hairless in the past, which I think lends him an angelic quality, and maintains that aesthetic of the marble statue. This is reflected in merchandise art that is more closely based off the old model. That Snoke seemed almost closer to a dark side creature, like a dark version of the Bendu, or a more concrete instance of the Son of Mortis.

    Once we see him in TLJ, he is more humanized. Some of his scarring is slightly diminished and his face acquires a somewhat more regular shape and hue. He looks like an evil old wizard, more human though still alien in many ways, he even has hints of facial hair on his jawline and scalp, if you look at the more high definition version of this image that is in the Visual Dictionary. Johnson said he viewed him as more of a Wizard of Oz figure, with a lot of theatricality set up around him to compensate for his diminished strength.

    I'm not saying this is an inconsistency in terms of story, canonicity, or even character. These are film directors, so their comments mainly reflect the impression that they want the character to give, visually and thematically. It makes sense for Snoke's initial appearance to be more ethereal, distant, and inhumanly evil; almost like an incarnation of the dark side, because that's his role in that movie. He's still the same character in TLJ, but we meet him in person, and Johnson's task was to make him real even when he shares the same space as human characters, which I think he did splendidly. After all, Serkis's comments have remained consistent. He is a powerful figure who was severely injured in the past and those scars have stayed with him psychologically too. So he was clearly always more mortal than not.

    What I do wonder is if his "original" look, if we ever get to see it, will be changed from something significantly more alien to something that is relatively human. So, whether he was, instead of a mostly hairless statuesque elf, more of a human wizard who would not have drawn too many looks from others. It's definitely hard to imagine now that he was always bald, though picturing his current look with hair is almost humorous. Who could pull off acting as a young Snoke?
  4. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 27, 2012
    What of Snoke dying in TLJ was done simply so the audience could witness him cheating death?
    Darth Caliban and DarthTalonx like this.
  5. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 12, 2014
    But he's dead now. Would have been better with flashback of Palpatine Lightning "killing" him. "Have you ever heard the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis the Wise?"

    This is interesting:

  6. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Jun 16, 2016
    Snoke = Plagueis has been debunked for over a year and a half now. Maybe even two years.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  7. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Aug 19, 2003
  8. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 3, 2014
    I haven’t clicked on the video, but I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that I guarantee that the answer to the question posed in the title of the video is “No”
  9. MotherNature's SilverSeed

    MotherNature's SilverSeed Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Feb 4, 2013
    Well, I just watched it.

    I can't figure out what's "interesting" about it--I failed to notice one single idea that hasn't already been mentioned a hundred times by the "Snoke could still be Plagueis!" wishcasters.

    Can anybody clue me in?
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  10. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 14, 2015
    There are people who’ve never kissed a girl—and never will.
  11. MrElculver2424

    MrElculver2424 Jedi Master star 4

    May 11, 2014
    Remember in TFA when Snoke appeared to have mysterious motives? Upon hearing about Rey, he demands Kylo bring her to him. In TLJ, all he does is say "Hi, tell me where Luke is and then I'm going to kill you." But she didn't have the location of Luke in TFA and Snoke had no reason to think she did. So why did he want to see her in person? If he just wanted her dead wouldn't he have just had Kylo do it, just as he ended up doing anyway?
  12. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 1, 2005
    I think we was interested in her power, in corrupting her and turning her into an ally. He still wants her in TLJ, and when Kylo finally brings her to him, and he tests her, he sees enough to know that she will not be corrupted. Remember that in that scene where he learns where Luke is he pretty much sees everything about her. He says something like "Give me everything" beforehand.

    And he does get everything, he learns about Luke, his whereabouts, and his plans to end the Jedi. Snoke learns that Luke is no longer the threat he feared. That boosts Snoke's confidence, makes him feel like he has already won. And that's why he has Kylo execute her, because she is already too much of a true Jedi, and is perhaps the only Jedi who remains who can pose a threat to him. She is the light that rose to meet Kylo's darkness, not Luke.

    Of course there's also the role he sees for Rey as an instrument to further teach Kylo. He manipulates their bond and strengthens it so they'll be exposed to one another. Partially to tempt Rey to the dark side, but also to tempt Kylo with the light, and thereby push him further into the dark. Especially if he follows Snoke's final order to kill Rey. It would mean Kylo sacrificing the compassion and light that remained in him, and which had disappointed Snoke most recently.

    And it backfired. They both learned their lessons from their masters, and graduated in the way most fitting their respective side of the Force. Luke sacrificed himself for the new generation, while Kylo sacrificed his master in his moment of greatest victory for his own ascension. In some ways, Snoke is a more successful dark side teacher than Palpatine, in that his student actually graduated.
  13. MrElculver2424

    MrElculver2424 Jedi Master star 4

    May 11, 2014
    Ok, fine.

    Then Snoke orders Kylo to kill Rey to "complete his training." Yet Snoke was totally unimpressed by Kylo killing his own father, a family member whom it was incredibly hard to kill. But killing a random lightsided girl will "complete his training"? Either Snoke is stupid, or this writing is severely lacking in common sense.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
    PCCViking and DarthTalonx like this.
  14. Mungo Baobab

    Mungo Baobab Woefully whimsical Whill of New Films star 4 Staff Member Manager

    Dec 2, 2014
    I think Snoke's principle interest in her is that he senses Kylo's feelings for her, and intends to have him kill her, just as he tries to do in TLJ. It's about snuffing out those positive emotions, or 'weaknesses' in Kylo.
  15. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 11, 2014
    ^Which was so disappointing.
  16. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 23, 2018
    The writing for Snoke was consistent from TFA to TLJ.
    He wanted to end Kylo's weaknesses which was Han in TFA and Rey in TLJ.
    And he wanted Luke dead.
    Thats why he kept taunting Kylo.

    Kylo was Snoke's favourite apprentice he said so in TFA and TLJ.

    He wasnt interested in turning Rey at all.
    He told Kylo to bring her bcoz he wanted to confirm that she was Kylo's equal in the light and then wanted to kill her.

    And thats the biggest WTF of ST, nobody is intetested in Rey at all.
    Everybody is interested in Kylo.

    Snoke is all about Kylo.
    Han, Leia were all about saving Kylo.
    Luke was all about Kylo too.
    Even Rey was all about turning Kylo.
    Every big Rey moment is with or related to Kylo.

    Our villian holds more importance here rather than our hero.

    Rey is just doing things just bcoz and pokes her nose in the matters that have nothing to do with her.

    That kind of writing is bad.

    Bcoz people made certain expectations for the hero but turns out she is not that relevent to our OT heroes and Snoke too.

    They dont care about her.
    So why should we?
  17. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 12, 2014
    How has it been "debunked". There is no on screen movie explanation yet giving us a yes he is, or no he isn't. Don't just write a sentence and assume it's fact.

    I think the latter yes. It really lacks any consistency at all. A good scene otherwise. But lack of backstory such as the HISHE video suggested, makes this a baffling sequel trilogy which is meant to continue the story.

    Has no one seriously heard the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis the Wise? It doesn't sound like a story the new writers (who ditched the Lucas story) would tell us.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
    DarkGingerJedi likes this.
  18. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Jun 16, 2016

    @Daniel_Outhier @Gary_Thursby @timvitkuske Sidious killed Plagueis. Ascending to master. As is the way of the Sith.

    — Pablo Hidalgo (@pablohidalgo) May 8, 2016

    But Pablo, is he really, really dead? The answer is yes.

    @MarissaTalchi @Daniel_Outhier @Gary_Thursby I said Sidious killed Plagueis. He killed him. Killed. As in "to kill". Like, there was killing

    — Pablo Hidalgo (@pablohidalgo) May 8, 2016

    @MarissaTalchi @Daniel_Outhier @Gary_Thursby he is dead. There you go. Three words.

    — Pablo Hidalgo (@pablohidalgo) May 8, 2016

    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
    oncafar, TK327, 11-4D and 2 others like this.
  19. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 21, 2012
    I'm adamantly against the idea that Snoke is Plagueis, and have argued against this for 2 years. But you know what...if the movie isn't going to give us anything about his character background, or how he came to be, and insist that Snoke's background is actually so unimportant that it doesn't even deserve being mentioned, then there's nothing to say to fans who think Snoke is Plagueis. That 'theory', as lame as it might be, is just as likely as anything and doesn't really contradict anything the movie does tell us. It's no different than anyone who pulls in various other outside material to give explanation to the movie when it lacks telling something. If Luke can project himself across the galaxy, who's to say Ol' Plagueis was doing the same when Palps 'killed' him that fateful night. Real Plagueis, wherever he was, dies just as Luke does, and sure...he's no longer a Sith anymore. Or dies and comes back. I dunno. Whatever.

    I thought TLJ would illuminate something about Snoke. Something at least interesting to explain how this guy suddenly fits into the larger story. But since it literally says nothing... anything could be possible. I'm still against it, but can't rule it outright. That is until, at some point, if they choose, Lucasfilm decides to tell Snoke's background.
    Dandelo and Shadao like this.
  20. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 1, 2005
    I think the statement, "Snoke is not Plagueis" is not an absence of information. It says almost as much, if not more, than saying he is Plagueis. Because ultimately we don't know too much more about Plagueis; in fact we know more about Snoke than about Sidious's old master.

    So yes, saying "Snoke is not Plagueis" is a perfectly valid response, because that's part of what we were told about Snoke. We don't know a lot about him, he is mainly a mystery and that was a conscious choice by the filmmakers. They don't want to give his backstory because it's not relevant to what he is now. Or because nothing they introduce would do more than lead to more questions that they don't want to focus on.

    Many fans want to know more for obvious reasons. But it isn't honestly necessary to know his backstory in order to understand who Snoke is, what he wants in the films, and why he did the things he did. All of that comes through in the performance. We learn some more from interviews, though that's already additional material.

    So what are those obvious reasons for wanting to know Snoke's story? We want to know fill in the (deliberate) blanks between the OT and the ST. We want to know how the First Order came about, how Ben became Kylo, how Snoke came into the scene and messed everything up for our heroes. But those are not necessarily things we need to know, if I'm honest, that's my being a completionist and wanting to plug every mystery with some kind of answer. The filmmakers made an aesthetic and practical choice to not go into all that detail. Sometimes it can be confusing, but often the simple answers we get really are enough, and we get confused by trying to form complex theories that spin a web that is more confusing than helpful.

    Snoke is not Plagueis. He is not a Sith. He is no one we've known of before and He was not involved in the past movies. He is a master of the dark side, a powerful but vulnerable Force wielder, and he corrupted and made an ally of Ben Solo to further his plans for control of the galaxy we know, as head of the First Order. He was afraid of the Jedi, so he used subterfuge to take them out of the picture. We know this and more about him.

    I would love to know more about his story, but I do think that it's fitting we don't know more about him yet, just as we don't know more about the First Order because some of that may yet be explored in the future. We don't need to fully map this threat from the Unknown Regions to have a decent understanding of it, I think.
  21. PCCViking

    PCCViking Force Ghost star 10

    Jun 12, 2014
    I still think Snoke somehow survived.

    If what we said is true, about him forging the Force connection between Rey and Kylo (judging by their reactions the first time it happens), then if he's dead, they shouldn't experience that on Crait. Yet, it continues to happen, and surely Kylo would be strong enough to stop it, even if Rey isn't.

    The only other explanation between their continuous connection is akin to Vader-Luke (TESB, ROTJ) and Leia-Luke (TESB), but that would probably make them related ala Jacen and Jaina (even if not twins).

    Of course, in all likelihood, it's possible that I'm wrong. So, why knows?
    Darth Caliban likes this.
  22. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 1, 2005
    True, that connection was still there, though it’s possible that it was either running on its own by then or that Kylo and Rey had at that point developed a strong enough bond that it depended more on their joint power. But it does make one wonder.

    I’m also wondering if we might see Snoke again in the form of a holocron. Imagine if Ben found Snoke’s archive of lore, and among this horde was Snoke’s version of a holocron. Since holocrons store digital personalities, this would allow us to see more of Snoke and possibly show us a contrast of influences if Luke’s Force ghost also decides to appear to Kylo (“See you around, kid.”) It would allow him a sort of afterlife that doesn’t violate what we known of the dark side.

    It would even be great if the Snoke holocron were actually pleased with Kylo for killing him (the real him), and took it as proof that he was ready for a higher level of knowledge. That would certainly cement Snoke’s primary role as a master, and possibly give him the opportunity to give more information so that Kylo could continue his legacy.

    I don’t think it’s too likely this would happen, though. Kylo is done being a servant. The only way I do see it happening is if Kylo needed to learn something specific (and plot relevanf) from the holocron, but otherwise kept it locked away and refused to learn more from it. If Luke were also reaching out and Kylo is also ignoring him, it would be an interesting and strange way to show Kylo batting his demons as he tries to “let the past die.”
    PCCViking likes this.
  23. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Jul 3, 2016
    How does making these things known deteriorate the quality of the film? Considering some of those things have direct relations to Leia, Han, Luke and Ben's arcs throughout the trilogy.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
  24. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 12, 2014
    What are you talking about? There is no ON MOVIE SCREEN explanation officially from Lucas or Lucasfilm stating any of this.

    Thus in theory, it is entirely possible Plageuis survived. We only have Palpatine's word for this dark lord to have been killed entirely.
  25. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Jun 16, 2016