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TFA TLJ Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by dlbates, Dec 20, 2015.

  1. MrElculver2424

    MrElculver2424 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2014
    This is ridiculous and false.
    We have an entire saga that explains his rise to power. Don't play that game. It doesn't have to be origin information; just something...rise to power, anything.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  2. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Well, we know he’s from Naboo, met Tarkin while a senator, and had a master named Plageuis. And he took in Maul. I believe his tricking Mother Talzin. We know that after 7 GL films and a TV series. Not much.

    As for the OT we know he created the Empire and seduced Vader, but we don’t know how.

    The ST trilogy by definition won’t be 7 movies. So far we know he created the First Order ans seduced Ben.
     
  3. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Wrong. Politician from Naboo. (Later added: from an aristocratic house)
    He was a politician who made his career up to be supreme chancellor.

    Snoke: ....
     
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  4. MrElculver2424

    MrElculver2424 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2014
    Except we don't really even know if he created the FO or just forced his way into power once it had already started up. We know nothing at all. And yes I know the Emperor was given no information in ESB or ROTJ either but at this point in the story I just think it would've been a benefit to have some backstory in the story. Why darkness has risen again...a better explanation than just "randomness" and a plot device. Something more than him just getting up from his throne, walking around a little and sitting back down.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  5. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    What the audience need is Sheev's place of origins and how he became the Emperor. TPM answers that firmly. He was a Senator from Naboo who is secretly a Sith Lord. And he orchestrated the Trade Federation's blockade on his own planet to give the Senate a reason to vote for him as Chancellor. From there, he proceeded to erode Democracy and become Emperor. Additionally, TPM also gives a brief background about the Sith and their beef with the Jedi. You don't need to know why they hate the Jedi other than the fact they are evil and were nearly destroyed by the Jedi.

    AOTC answers how Sheev got dictatorial powers and an grand army that will become the future Stormtroopers.

    ROTS answers how Sidious turned Anakin into the Dark Side, wiped out the Jedi, and officially established the Empire. It also affirms that Palpatine is part of a long line of secret Sith Lords hiding from the galaxy, which TPM already established as fairly well-known organization at least in the Jedi's eyes.
     
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  6. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Sheev actually might be my favorite character. Or Anakin/Vader. And I love the PT. However, Snoke parallels OT Palpatine, not PT. And OT Palpatine raised a lot of questions.

    Now maybe IX will go into more detail. Maybe Ren and/or at least one other apprentice will shed light. And it’d be great if the new Filoni series describes the rise of the First Order. Not to mention comics/novels.

    I loved the PT. But I was a bit disappointed we didn’t get to see much of the Clone Wars. Then GL made what is in my opinion one fo the greatest animated TV series. And it’s canon.

    His being an aristocrat is canon?

    But OT Palpatine...
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  7. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2016
    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...-year-possibility-bringing-snoke-back-1088603
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  8. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    The key difference is that George Lucas had the foresight to establish a prequel trilogy preemptively by the time The Empire Strikes Back came out. TESB opens with Episode V, retroactively making Star Wars (now called A New Hope) into Episode IV. For the audience, that means that there exists three prequel episodes and since it became clear little is known about the Emperor's rise to power or Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader, it was generally accepted that the mystery behind Palpatine and Vader lies in those hypothetical prequels.

    No such thing exists in ST. ST starts off with Episode VII, leaving no room for an ST prequel trilogy explaining how Snoke rose into power like Palpatine.
     
  9. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Weak. We had to wait 16 years after ROTJ for TPM. It seemed like they never were going to be made. And there was the EU. Which turned out to be misdirection in effect. Then we had to wait 6 more years for ROTS. And we get a morsel about Plagueis. The DP
    novel was announced, canceled, released, and then declared not canon. We know so little about Sheev. Too many unanswered questions. Wonder if we’ll get anything about that woman who broke his heart.
     
  10. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Additionally, OT started a new universe. The foundation was new and suffice to say, no one knows what Star Wars was going to be. The Emperor can afford a lack of a backstory because he is the status quo of the universe and the true villain of the story. Destroy him, and you destroy the Empire. Same cannot be said for Snoke, who appears long after the Star Wars established that Palpatine was the ultimate evil in the galaxy and that the only Dark Siders that mattered were the Sith. Lucas made it clear he always wanted to explore PT on his own terms, which is why no one was allowed to explore that era before Lucas does so.

    If Snoke was from a new franchise, had a brief backstory of how he at least corrupt Ben Solo (since there are no plans for a ST prequel trilogy) or didn't come off as a cheap Palpatine clone in TLJ, he might have been a welcome addition to the Star Wars in spite of his sudden appearance and death in TFA/TLJ.
     
  11. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    So the argument has changed from Palpatine being firmly established to little backstory.

    Again, this comes down to head canon.
     
  12. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    The argument is that Palpatine has a great advantages over Snoke due to various factors. The first is that Palpatine is introduced before the world of Star Wars is firmly established in people's minds. Thus no one feels the need to learn about Palpatine's rise to power just yet. Second is that Lucas had the foresight to introduce the concept of prequel trilogy, thus enabling him to make Palpatine a deeper and more realized character and make it seem it was there all along. But by doing so, Lucas didn't really leave much room for a new villain to rise after ST given that Lucas also established in PT that Palpatine was the ultimate baddie and the two Sith Lords are all that matters.

    Snoke cannot enter the same way as OT Palpatine. Snoke needs explanation as to how did he succeed Palpatine as the new villain given that Lucas killed off the Sith Lords and made no allusions to being more powerful than Palpatine in the movies other than Darth Plagueis. Additionally, by starting off with Episode VII, there is virtually no chance of retroactively making a new trilogy explaining how Snoke rose to power and corrupted Kylo Ren. We are missing huge chunks of information that would be useful to connect ROTJ to ST.
     
  13. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    RO shows this isn’t necessary. A great anthology film of some kind that shows Sebastian Stan as a younger Luke and gets into aspects of Snoke would fill in the blanks just fine as RO did the Death Star’s construction.
     
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  14. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    The Death Star was already under construction in ROTS. The plans were shown in AOTC. The Death Star didn't came out of nowhere. Snoke virtually came out of nowhere. If he was Sly Moore the whole time, it would have be jarring, but at least we couldn't say Snoke appear out of nowhere the whole time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  15. lawton

    lawton Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    May 12, 2015
    You never know. I do think Ep 9 is kind of limited with just Rey and Kylo. I thought the best way to do things would have been for Snoke to be killed in a backhanded Sith way in the middle of Ep 9 with maybe Luke sacrificing himself then also to help kill Snoke.
     
  16. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    He could've just been some mystic that slipped under the radar of Palpatine and his Empire and filled the power vacuum of the chaos of Operation Cinder and the end result of ROTJ. Usually Dark Siders are always given massive powers to just end miserly in these films cause the good guys have to win and or they just misdirect the audience to keep things moving so the good guys eventually win.
     
  17. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    You take liberties attempting to speak for everyone. I always wanted to know more about the Sith and Palpatine. I wasn’t alone. Hence the Luceno novel.

    Also. The story of the PT in general and Palpatine in particular raises unanswered questions about Palpatine’s past, seduction of Dooku, relationship with Sifo Dyas, how he became a Sith, and the Sith’s oppression and defeat. Or the Rule of 2. Or who creates Anakin. How did Qhi Gon cheer death and the Sith can’t. Who’s Plagueis?
     
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  18. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Again it's not hard, I DON'T CARE what the OT did with Sheev because this isn't the OT (no matter how much Disney/LF seem to want it to be). This isn't 1877-1983, this is 2015-2019. IT'S DIFFERENT KNOW!! We didn't have FORTY YEARS of backstory in the OT. Nor did we have heroes that we followed for three movies and saw grow and develop and get wiser. And in the 30+ years since, presumably they've grown and become wiser even more. AND we didn't have a PT that solidified Sheev as the ultimate big bad of the SW universe, as well as also giving us the backstory (for better or worse) of Darth Vader (the other big bad of the SWU) as well.

    So if you're going to say "well forget all of that, this new guy just showed up that's more powerful than Sheev and Vader, and he was able to corrupt the OT heroes's son (Han and Leia) and nephew/student (Luke) from right under their noses (despite them being older/wiser than they were before), built up a New Empire, and wrecked EVERYTHING that the OT heroes built (and disillusioned Luke Skywalker in a way that Sheev and Vader failed to do as well), you need to explain who the heck this guy is, where he came from, and why he was able to do this.

    "Well the OT didn't tell you anything about Sheev," again I don't care, this isn't the OT. You could get away with it back then because the context was different. Now, it feels LAZY!! Snoke is a lazy/cheap plot device to reset the status quo but they put no real thought into his character whatsoever. And when it would have been pathetically easy to explain all of this, the lack of one is even more lame imo.

    But that's the ST as a whole I guess, try and do the same stuff all over again, but without the care or thought put into it.
     
  19. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Taking liberties? My expectations for Snoke is a simple matter of where and how did Snoke appear as a major and "important" figure in the ST when there is nothing about him that was hinted or foreshadowed in the OT or PT. It's not hard. I'm not expecting him to suddenly proclaim that he is secretly Darth Plagueis back from the dead. I dropped that theory a long time ago. What I expected was something to smooth the transition between OT and ST as this is something you want for Episodic films.

    Plagueis and the Sith are mysteries deliberately left to the persons' imaginations because they happened a very long time ago. And the basics of their purpose are there. They are the predecessors of Darth Sidious and Sidious is trying to fulfill their ancient revenge against the Jedi and ambition to rule the galaxy. Snoke came out of nowhere and everyone acts like they know him on a personal level, yet we are given no explanations about him whatsoever. Nothing. Not even a little dialogue exposition from Luke explaining how Snoke got to Ben, which would have been natural and waste nobody's time since Rey supposedly doesn't know how Ben fell.

    Snoke could have easily been an elder scholar of the Dark Side would worked under Palpatine and now finds himself leading an Imperial resurgence known as the First Order. He wants revenge against the Republic for Palpatine's death and uses Ben Solo to do it. He tries to rebuild the Empire in Palpatine's image but Kylo Ren has greater ambitions and kills Snoke upfront because Snoke conflicts with his own interests and he no longer needs any training anymore. And then he throws Snoke's body before Hux just to make it clear who's the boss around.

    That is easy and requires no intentionally raised mystery behind this figure. No need for hype that Snoke is more powerful than the Emperor or older than the Emperor. He's just a dangerous and cunning leader who follows Palpatine's guidebook for Evil Overlords because he used to work for him. And you know where I got my inspiration for this headcanon story? From another Andy Serkis character, Ulysses Klaue AKA Klaw from Black Panther.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  20. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    I always love how people use “lazy” to describe RJ. They aren’t trying to do OT 2.0. Au contraire, TDA has themes and variations that Klimo pointed out with the Ring Theory. TLJ has its own themes and variations, albeit subverting some themes and ruining the head canons of some viewers, much like GL did with TESB and the PT.

    For me, there’s a lot of intellectual and imaginative laziness on the part of those who criticize RJ, whom I think is not lazy at all in his imaginative contribution to the GFFA. Imagine if Anakin had killed Kenobi and then the Emperor and then run, “my empire.” Or if Vader and Luke had teamed up and killed Palpatine to rule as father and son. Wonder how Sis would have figured in all this as there was no Rule of 2.

    But Kenobi survived III and Anakin/Vader sacrificed himself in VI.

    Now we got Ren taking out Snoke and taking over. Rey doesn’t join, while it’s Luke who sacrificed himself. Not rehashing. Themes and variations and twists. And the possibilities for IX are many.

    This is the story of Ren, not Snoke, just as the PT was the story of Anakin, not Vader (more destroyed head canon).

    Snoke served his purpose. It’ll be interesting if in novels, animation, comics, we learn more about him than we have with Palpatine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Unknown regions

    Imperialist refugees with a power vacuum needing filled

    Vader progeny vulnerable to being tempted with an ill gained higher destiny.

    The blanks are interesting. But not essential to the plot of the ST.
     
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  22. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Which isn't the argument. In two films they had more then plenty of time to establish his story that could be expanded upon in other media.

    I can just about guarantee we will learn more because there is next to nothing in the actual movies unlike Sidious who we learn a ton about in the movies.

    That is unless he returns for IX and they actually do something with him.
     
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  23. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Porg of New Films & Fan Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    The way I see it, we don't need to know more about Snoke than we do. But I still would have vastly prefered it if we had gotten at least a little exposition about him.
    It is a bit jarring that he's just there, with no explanation, and that we know that our old heroes know (of) him since before the films.
     
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  24. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    The problem with Snoke having no backstory, is that there's nothing to define him as different from Palpatine. That's why I wanted some interesting backstory. To make him different, and thus interesting. As it stands, there's nothing Snoke does that Palpatine doesn't. He's just a carbon copy.
     
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  25. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Malleus Maleficarum star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    I really only care about more info on Snoke insofar as it would go a long way toward explaining the actual origin of the First Order. In terms of it being a direct continuation of the Empire or an unrelated group attempting to model themselves after the Empire. If it was the former, knowing who Snoke was in the Imperial apparatus would be clearer.
     
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