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TFA TLJ Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by dlbates, Dec 20, 2015.

  1. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    It is the argument. Just not for solipsists.

    We learned very little about Sids in 8 films counting TLJ, 2 animation series, and a couple of novels.

    If he’s a carbon copy he doesn’t get killed by his apprentice sacrificing himself in the second film. And we know so much more about him. And then no whining.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
    lawton likes this.
  2. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    I'd ultimately like to know more about Snoke because Serkis made his character fascinating, not because I need plot holes filled.
     
  3. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    @The Legions of Lettow - If you end up banned one week for each personal insult you insert in every single post you might make it back in time to discuss Episode 35.

    Discuss the topic without inserting your oh so witty assessments of others.
     
  4. Darth Geezy

    Darth Geezy Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016
    I fail to believe that they created this character simply to kill him off with no explanation. More is to come.

    "To cheat death, is a power no one has been able to achieve but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret."

    "He could save others from dying, but not himself."

    Sounds to me like someone didn't know what they were talking about. Perhaps someone did figure out the secret, in the afterlife (which we all know clearly exists in this universe).
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  5. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Haven't I already told you who Snoke is? Sheesh!
     
    TCF-1138 likes this.
  6. KamNale

    KamNale Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2012
    So Snoke became my all time favorite sequel trilogy character because he's something we've never imagined before.

    Remember back when TFA was around the corner and there were reports that he was 30 ft tall? That made him interesting. By the time TFA was out his page on the TFA section of our forum was over 400 pages long. No character has one that long. Why? Why is he so interesting to us?

    After 2 more years of speculations and guessing that he was every character under the sun, it mattered not. He was killed in TLJ and we received nothing more. The novel (I won't spoil anything) gave a small look into his past. That's it. In reality, Snoke could've had a different path in what JJ imagined or if someone else was in charge of TLJ. I don't blame Rian for killing him. Yeah I was pretty bummed he died, but I understood that he was important to Kylo's development.

    I know that we have next to nothing about Snoke, but we can't really do the whole "we knew nothing about the Emperor during the OT". I'm pretty sure that GL was gonna go into details about Palps in the future. Now, we actually don't know Palpatine's past because it has not been told from a canon perspective.

    Basically:
    Palpatine- Naboo senator who is a Sith Lord and took over the galaxy.
    Snoke- Guy from the Unknown Regions who used the dark side and the Imperial Remnant for his own goals.

    That's kinda it. That could be all we know and they'd have us to fill it in ourselves, but may I remind everyone that they're still remaking the canon. We'll get our story on Snoke somehow. It may take years, but it'll happen. I'm sad a lot of people hate Snoke, but he really is an interesting character if you look past his limited role. Plus, Andy Serkis did a great job portraying him.
     
  7. Mungo Baobab

    Mungo Baobab Woefully whimsical Whill of New Films star 4 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2014
    From the novelisation....

    It seems that Snoke had been deliberately confusing and misleading Luke's quest to build a new Jedi Order, from the very beginning...

    “Like his father, Skywalker had been a favored instrument of the will of the Cosmic Force. That made it essential to watch him. And once Skywalker endangered Snoke’s design, it had become essential to act.

    And so Snoke had drawn upon his vast store of knowledge, parcelling it out to confuse Skywalker’s path, ensnare his family, and harness Ben Solo’s powers to ensure both Skywalker’s destruction and Snoke’s triumph.”
     
  8. Oryx-I

    Oryx-I Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    About that old "Oh, but we didn't know anything about Palpatine in the OT, so it's fine" argument, the real problem here is that if someone as powerfull as Snoke can just pop up at any time without any explanation, then there is no end game, no actual stakes. After him, another dark side master can appear, and then another. Copies of copies of copies of Palpatine. The problem is that it is a short term narrative decision. Every time you'll pull something like this, people will care a little less.
    The entire Star wars saga suffers and will suffer again from this kind of decisions, because it makes it less relevant.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  9. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Are we allowed to post links to the odd screen capture of pages now that the extended edition is out in stores?
     
  10. Darth Caliban

    Darth Caliban Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Wow. Now we have Romulans in Star Wars
     
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  11. Mungo Baobab

    Mungo Baobab Woefully whimsical Whill of New Films star 4 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2014
    As long as you spoiler tag them. Nothing from the book should be posted without spoiler tags.
     
  12. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    5 paged on Snoke’s past found here in the extended edition. Go to link to see more.

     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  13. themoth

    themoth Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    All sounds good to me.

    I still love how Snoke read Ben’s exact mind (how he was going to turn the light sabre and strike down his true enemy) but he was so smug to think it wasn’t him.
     
    lawton and Martoto77 like this.
  14. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Thanks! Great find!
     
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    "That lightsaber..... It belongs to me!"
     
    themoth likes this.
  16. Darth Geezy

    Darth Geezy Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Agree...the next boss after Palpatine should have been the person that was watching this whole thing, the mastermind (paraphrasing Lucas).

    I still say that Lucas' original plan and reason for dropping the whole Plagueis line into ROTS (along with Palpatine's creepy head turn towards Anakin when mentioning he could create life) was to foreshadow a potential sequel trilogy's content. Exploring Anakin and the Skywalker lineage's origins and finding out that Plagueis did indeed figure out how to cheat death would have been a far more interesting story than the mess we have now IMO.
     
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  17. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Interesting speculation. And didn’t GL have a Sith Ghost haunting Luke?
     
  18. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    After just I-VI we learned everything that is truly important to know about him.

    The rest is just interesting support. The deeper "origin" is contained in the Plagueis novel and while interesting it's hardly essential.

    The over-arching antagonist's role is less the personal journey but about setting up the circumstances. We know how Sidious set the galactic scale which the story plays out in and what he had to do to get there. In the ST Snoke should have been there to do the same. To get us from the end of VI to the start of VII.

    We don't need to known Snoke's deep background origin. What is necessary is his relation to and what he was doing during the events of I-VI. That too can be extremely generalized with details in support media.

    Even if they want to treat him less like a Sidious and more like Maul, Dooku, Jango or Grievous.

    What is actually of importance is a basic broad arc that is really almost laughably easy to do over the ST and even in the two films of the 3.

    Even an absolute bare bones version (which would be somewhat underwhelming) would be preferable to the next to nothing that has been provided.

    Sidious gets killed by his apprentice and Snoke gets killed by his apprentice. That in itself isn't the problem. The problem is that for the former it's done after a build-up that is based on story, character and motivations that have been defined and are understandable. The latter is done for momentary surprise and shock which at the very, very least could lead to actual growth and change for Ren but it's immediately thrown away and he's the same old guy (or rather the same new guy who was introduced in TLJ as opposed to the largely similar character from TFA except for the motivations he had being stripped away).

    Possible but I doubt it. More likely Lucas' "Uber" was some other powerful Force user. As Lucas said:

    "Now, there's a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force."
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  19. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Now that the extended edition has made it clear that he out-thought, killed or outmaneuvered the Aftermath protagonists and was the last person any of those people would have suspected would rise to the top, it's going to be very interesting to learn of the initial role Snoke had at the start to sneak into this operation and then slowly puppeteer everyone all the way to the top.

    My guess is that he pitched himself initially as an Outer Regions expert and a consultant who could help them achieve their goals in the Out Regions that they completely underestimated. That Skywalker also crossed his path earlier in his career is also interesting while both were discovering Force artifacts.

    It wouldn't surprise me if it was something like that or perhaps that we will learn in new cannon that he personally trained the Emperor's original Royal Guard years ago and that he pitched his services to build a new guard for the next leader and then started maneuvering and influencing others until he rose to the top in the power vacuum with his new guard loyal to him. Even after death.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  20. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Snoke's background in terms of outmaneuvering and manipulating old Imperial brass to take command of the First Order makes sense to me, but it still seems like he popped up out of nowhere. To me, it feels more important to understand where he was during the time prior to the end of the Empire. His ascension after ROTJ feels more straightforward, given the power vacuum.
     
  21. Darth Geezy

    Darth Geezy Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016
    It's also possible that there never was some elaborate political plot a la Palpatine and Snoke just rose to power because everyone was afraid of him.

    In other words, he got where he was so quickly just because he had the ability to punk any person that stood in his way, like a bully. This is a guy that literally had the power to force lightning any person at any time - yeah, I am pretty sure he didn't need a lot of political clout to get where he got.
     
  22. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    It's most likely. Without a similar political situation to exploit, why would it be a similar backstory.

    The FO rose from the ashes of the Empire. Essentially a community of political refugees with a power vacuum to be filled, residing at the boundary between the old republic/empire and the unknown regions from which a new leader has emerged to fill said vacuum.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  23. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Yeah, it’s super cheap.

    I’m not the “Just adapt the Zahn Trilogy!” type, and I think it doesn’t really translate well to a movie, but I thought they made a great decision creatively by making Thrawn and some obscure lost Jedi the main villains without being Palpatine ripoffs.

    I don’t even think this trilogy needs Snoke. They could’ve had Hux as the main villain and had him turn Kylo, had Kylo usurp Hux in Episode 8, and you would’ve gotten the same plot points out of it with a naturally flowing story from Episode 6.
     
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  24. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
  25. Mungo Baobab

    Mungo Baobab Woefully whimsical Whill of New Films star 4 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Excellent. Well, that narrows it down a little further. 200 years old. So not ancient, but he's been on the scene for quite a while. And the scars and injuries have been with him for a long time.
    which taken along with a line from the novelisation about learning a harsh lesson about Force visions in his youth, might suggest that he's been this way for well over 100 years or so.