main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

  2. Enter the Episode IX Treatment Contest! Details here!

  3. A Rule For Everyone To See:

    The New Films staff strive to create a fun and welcoming environment for all users. This forum is a place for discussing the films, which means that you think the films are worth discussing. Constructive criticism (as deemed by the moderating staff) is welcome and encouraged. Bashing of any kind will not be tolerated anywhere outside The Sanctuary thread. See the new rules thread here. Bans can and will be handed out to anyone who doesn't abide by the forum rules.

TFA TLJ Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by dlbates, Dec 20, 2015.

  1. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Some new information. Have Perri and Denniz been following this thread?

     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
    Darth Caliban likes this.
  2. Darth Caliban

    Darth Caliban Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2015
  3. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    And

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...e-episode-8-9.50035999/page-371#post-54936219
     
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  5. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    From Coke Zeroh



    Talks a bit about Treverrow disagreeing with Snoke dying without a back story. Kinda confused as it makes it sound like he wouldn’t be able/allowed? to tell the back story in IX.

    Also, CT was let go/left in September 2017. Filming for VIII finished in July 2016. Are we to believe that CT wouldn’t change his script and was trying to force RJ to reshoot so Luke ad Snoke live. Minor changes would be necessary for a lining Luke, but major changes would be needed for a living Snoke.
     
    lawton likes this.
  6. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  7. Mungo Baobab

    Mungo Baobab Woefully whimsical Whill of New Films star 4 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Trevorrow likely wanted to feature the younger of the Snoke brothers, seen here with Snoke Sr.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. lawton

    lawton Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    May 12, 2015
    Interesting Serkis making that statement about Snoke being a couple of hundred years old probably. Unless he is well off that probably means he didn't pre-date Yoda I guess. It will be interesting to find out how he got injured like that and stuck out in the Unknown Regions. That kind of throws a wrench into the Jedi causing his injuries also unless they are willing to just create some stuff that somehow was never mentioned before even with Yoda being around.
     
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  9. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Can we do away with this 'we didn't know anything about the Emperor so it's okay we don't know anything about Snoke.' The Emperor works in Jedi because at that point there hadn't been 7 movies before it, we had minimal information about what had happened pre Episode 4. The question of who the Emperor was and how he came to power is there but it's not a very big question, an Empire exists and therefore it has to have an Emperor.


    With Snoke it's different. We know from the previous movies the Emperor supposedly wiped out almost all the Jedi and was seemingly the most powerful Force User in the galaxy. So with the new movies we have this huge disconnect between what happened when we last saw this universe and what is happening now. This naturally raises questions... like where was this ultra powerful force user 30 years ago and why is he only now showing his face?


    It's totally different because in the OT there is no frame of reference for what has come before so you don't need an explanation of where people come from to the same extent. Of course if you consider the 'sequel' trilogy more of a soft reboot than a true continuation then it might make sense. But it isn’t. Which is why it doesn’t. Bottom line is that these good films could have been made into Star Wars films. And GREAT films. A story with one flowing epic arc and GL’s touch was what made Star Wars what it was.

    Has anyone ever told you the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis the Wise?
     
  10. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Hey look, it's Glorm. I expected him to be a lot wider though like Champa to Snoke's Beerus.
     
    DarthTalonx likes this.
  11. Ubraniff Zalkaz

    Ubraniff Zalkaz Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 2014
    Or we could be getting another film showing Snoke's rise to power.
     
  12. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith Legend.
     
    DarthTalonx likes this.
  13. lawton

    lawton Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    May 12, 2015
    Based on Serkis statement It probably puts Snoke's age roughly from 200 - 400 years old I would guess. Is there anything in previous books/cartoons etc. about the Unknown Regions coming into play during that time period - like some Jedi going there possibly?
     
  14. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    You would imagine that the concept of an "Unknown Regions" was included by GL in SW for the very purpose of being able to introduce significant new players without them having to be referred to in previous material. e.g. If a just as formidable antagonist as the Seps or Sidious was required in a later movie, nobody would be wondering "If they were around the whole time, why were the Jedi exclusively concerned with those guys and didn't once mention the need to be vigilant that so-and-so doesn't exploit the situation of the Clone Wars?" Even Palpatine would have cause to be demonstrably wary. Unless these regions are so unknown that nobody considers that any danger could reside there and makes a suitable place for Imperialist refugees.
     
    lawton likes this.
  15. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    LEGEND.

    Well whatever happened to him?

    He became so powerful. Unfortunately for him, he taught his apprentice everything he knew. And then his apprentice killed him in his sleep.

    So certain are you?

    I blasted him with Lightning myself. He was dead. I felt it. It's ironic really. He could save others from dying...but not himself!

    [Watching from afar on a distant planet, word spreads of the death of the Galactic Emperor at Endor] - Overconfidence was also his weakness. A pity. He achieved what none before us could. It seems my apprentice was not as clever as I thought.

    [On Coruscant, whilst observing the Old Jedi Temple...]
    Impressive. Most impressive. R2, pull up the old archives and reactivate the beacon. It's time to get the Jedi Beacon up and running. Master Yoda, Obi Wan...Father! [three ghosts appear]

    There has been an awakening in the Force Luke. Have you felt it? - Obi Wan

    Something's not right. I came to the Temple hoping the knowledge bestowed in the archives could help me discover the powerful awakening felt.

    There is a great disturbance in the Force. It is the dark side. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old Master. But this was much stronger. - Anakin.

    Strong with the dark side he is... - Yoda

    Who? Who could this be? - Obi Wan

    The Emperor was not the last surviving Sith... I can feel him. He is old, he watches, he waits patiently!

    The last Sith he is not. Something else he has become. A power beyond the dark's reach. One even his apprentice did not know - Yoda

    The power over death... - Anakin

    Great care you must take young Skywalker. Go to the First Jedi Temple you must. Knowledge of the secret of the Force you may find.... - Yoda



    That would be somewhat sad given we should be seeing that now. The PT/OT never needed supplementary films or material to explain them.

    Rogue One was most enjoyable but again doesn't focus not the main characters.

    Snoke is a main character. And frankly this isn't a new film, story etc. This is meant to be the continuation of the saga from ROTJ. For him to be a random bad guy seems absurd. It belittles the entire Jedi Order, Sith etc. Makes Palpatine the Patient, all the grand plans looks silly. Now tying him together with the past makes this saga complete. It is its destiny.



    You can't leave that to a secondary film. In particular when this is an era where the characters like Han, Luke, Leia etc know who he is. And everyone seems to know about him, save for the audience.
     
  16. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    That video pretty much nails why this doesn’t really work for the Saga. We go from Ewoks playing Stormtrooper heads like drums to Stormtroopers killing villagers and Snoke is supposed to be the reason for it all, yet it isn’t “important” enough to know how we got form Point B to Point C after we knew how we got from Point A to Point B in the previous films.

    I’m okay with Snoke coming from the Unknown Regions or whatever and not having to have been Darth Plagueis or established in the lore, but that they don’t even bother to explain this at all on screen is pretty lazy and confusing.

    He needed to be introduced in a more organic way. Maybe, instead of a Starkiller Base, you have whatever the new equivalent of Korriban is as the main baddy planet and make the entire goal of the First Order all about freeing this ancient dark side dude (part of why Kyle was seduced to join the First Order, needing a master after leaving Luke). They succeed in freeing Snoke, and the Resistance succeeds in destroying the First Order’s base on that planet or whatever.
     
  17. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    It’s been a few weeks, but after reading enough of the TLJ novelization, watching the Rebels series finale, and catching up with articles, I think there’s a lot of fertile ground and questions to discuss related to Snoke. For simplicity, I will put it all in Spoiler tags.

    The First Order and the Unknown Regions:
    • We do not know where Snoke came from, but we know that he was instrumental in shepherding and saving the Imperial refugees after they fled into the Unknown Regions. Palpatine’s Contingency had prepared them militarily to settle and rebuild a new Empire, but this was not enough against unnamed “terrors” they encountered in that region of space. What did save them was Snoke’s knowledge, and thus he became their leader.
    • We do not know what threats they encountered, but we did learn that there were other hermetic kingdoms in the Unknown Regions at the time of the Galactic Civil War, and that most had been dismantled or destroyed by the First Order over the past few decades. Two of these kingdoms would likely have been the Chiss Ascendancy and whatever threat they faced, though we do not know which of these may have sided with the First Order, if any.
    • The First Order did ally themselves with a group of alien navigators who became Snoke’s attendants, and who were also responsible for saving the Imperials. Snoke is very closely tied to these navigators, despite being from a different species. The aliens are among the few beings who have ever seen Snoke in person (and they seem to spend a lot of time with him), and their knowledge of hyperspace lanes was also referenced as being essential to saving the Imperial refugees in the Unknown Regions. More on this later.
    • Snoke’s ascent in the First Order was something rather unexpected, since he was not a military figure. This ties to the Contingency preparing the Empire militarily, but that not being enough for their survival, and that’s where Snoke came in. He got rid of or co-opted other rivals, including Rae Sloane and Brendol Hux. Armitage is the only leader he really kept, and he uses him mainly as an instrument at this stage of domination.
    • There is a clash of generations among the First Order. Younger officers like Hux feel that the older Imperials were useful in the beginning, as the foundation of the new and vital First Order, but that they were too attached to the familiar model of the Empire to truly be useful in the future. In contrast, the older Imperials feel that the younger fanatics like Hux are useful as revolutionaries, they can wage war and help them regain their lost power, but it is only classic Imperial discipline and strategy, tested by and learned from experience, that will really allow them to maintain and administer a rebuilt Galactic Empire.
    • The First Order’s overall goal seems to be not only to regain what the Galactic Empire lost, but to expand on that and continue conquering beyond the boundaries of the original Empire.
    Snoke’s Rise to Power:
    • Per the Serkis interview, Snoke is a couple hundred years old, and his injuries are a result of accumulated damage from previous battles, as well as his body’s finally starting to succumb to all of that damage. His age means that his body is no longer recovering like it would have in the past, and is starting to break down. Perhaps unintentionally, this ties well with Maz’s brief scene in the novel, where she recounts the large number of wounds, scars, and injuries she has accumulated over her long life, and even comments on how human life spans are a couple centuries too short for them to develop patience as a true habit. To me, this also provides a bit of insight into how Snoke views the world around him, how he designs his strategies in the long term, and how he sees his instruments.
    • As Snoke has aged and his body has weakened, his mastery of the Force has increased. Knowledge of the Force is what truly interests him, specifically the dark side, and the truths he has learned in the Unknown Regions gave him the power to take control over the First Order. Aside from himself and Kylo Ren, Snoke does not command any legions of Force warriors, according to Hux, and he is only interested in Kylo Ren and Rey as potential instruments for his will, instruments that he is happy to discard once they have been used. Indeed, while he saw the fusion of light and dark in Kylo as interesting, he started to think it may just make Kylo unstable rather than powerful.
    • Snoke is very accustomed to using the Force to view the future possible timelines and plan accordingly. However, he is familiar with how deceptive or vague these visions can be, and not knowing this was something that cost him dearly in his youth, when the galaxy was a very different place.
    • Snoke’s only remaining obstacle to power was Skywalker, whom he saw as intimately connected to the will of the Cosmic Force. He seems to have been at peace with Skywalker not training new Jedi and focusing on simply learning more about the order’s origins and other truths about the Force. Luke initially did not want to train other Jedi because he saw that the galaxy was in balance, and that it did not need new Jedi. However, at some point Luke did endanger Snoke’s designs, or perhaps Snoke foresaw that he would, and so Snoke “drew on his vast store of knowledge” to “confuse Skywalker’s path, ensnare his family, and harness Ben Solo’s powers.”
    • So what was Snoke’s knowledge, which allowed him to save and gain control of the First Order and to destroy what Luke had built? My understanding was that this referred to his knowledge of the dark side, to the truths that he had learned in the Unknown Regions and that Palpatine had sought. The book directly connects his knowledge to the dark side nexus mentioned in the Aftermath books, being more explicit about what Palpatine meant by the “source” of his power. “[Palpatine] knew that the galaxy’s knowledge of the Force had come from those long-abandoned, half-legendary star systems, and that great truths awaited rediscovery among them.”
    • Here I see a connection to another passage in the book, where Rey talks about the light side equivalent of this, in reference to Ahch-To. It is evident to Rey that this world is an intense concentration of the light (and the dark), and thus an ideal place to connect to and learn about the Force. While wondering how the first Jedi explorers found the world, she instinctively deduces that they had “followed a whisper in the Force, plunging into the trackless churn of the galaxy’s stars and trusting the Force to find pathways through them.” This sounds a lot like the experience Palpatine had with the dark side nexus that called to him from the Unknown Regions, and once again it ties closely to the idea of navigating through that chaotic area of space by using the Force.
    • My conclusion is that Snoke was an alien warlord from the Unknown Regions in command of the navigators who was looking for more power. If the UR were as hazardous as they sound, he may have been struggling for many decades to truly get an upper hand on the other forces there, and so he could have seen the potential for a game-changer in the struggling Imperials. He allied his group with them to help the Imperials reach the resources they needed to maintain their fleet and survive (something hinted at in the Cross-Sections), as well as to help himself reach the nexus of the dark side that would then allow him to obtain more knowledge of the dark side, and therefore continue on his rise to power.
    • Once he was a much stronger in the dark side, it’s possible his rise to power led him to conclude that Skywalker would eventually seek him out and try to destroy him as a threat to the balance. So Snoke may have started to manipulate Ben’s innate darkness and Luke’s ambitions to train him, setting up the catastrophic confrontation that led to Kylo’s fall and to Luke’s self-exile. Snoke seems to be fairly good at projecting his power across vast distances, so I’m not convinced this would mean he ever met either of them in person. Only from the shadows, and in dreams.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  18. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Yeah, the TLJ book adds quite a bit, so much so I'd be surprised if none of it plays a part in Ep 9.
     
  19. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    TFA novel also give informations about Snoke that made me excited to TLJ... So I will not have high expectations about him anymore
     
  20. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I'd treat both of those with a fair amount of scepticism, the Express is on par with the Mail in terms of being a tabloid rag.
     
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  21. Mungo Baobab

    Mungo Baobab Woefully whimsical Whill of New Films star 4 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Great spot. You're right, this does sound incredibly similar to the call that Palpatine felt, and Tashu spoke about.
    The 'source of the dark side' could well be an origin planet, equivalent to Ahch-To.
     
  22. ImpreciseStormtrooper

    ImpreciseStormtrooper Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    With the shooting title of IX being Black Diamond, should we infer that Snoke's ring will feature (either as something Kylo claims, or that even Snoke will return - or at least his backstory might?).
     
  23. Mungo Baobab

    Mungo Baobab Woefully whimsical Whill of New Films star 4 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Personally, I don't think Snoke will return, but we may get some detail on his backstory, and maybe also this mysterious 'source of the dark side'.

    Kylo may inherit whatever power or knowledge Snoke gained from the source. He's very interested in power, so it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to suggest that he'd dig into his former boss's secrets. Particularly those involving the power of the dark side.
     
  24. PCCViking

    PCCViking Force Ghost star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014
    If he says to Rey, "Have you ever heard the tragedy of Supreme Leader Snoke the Wise? I thought not. It's not a legend Skywalker will tell you," I might just walk out. :p
     
  25. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    I concur. That video nails it. I think this one was also pretty good:



    I concur. ALL previous films explain how we get from point A to point B and to point C and so on. The entire saga (one flowing 6 film saga) is cohesive and makes sense. Each film follows on naturally from the previous instalment. And also fits into one saga with one story.

    EVERYTHING IS EXPLAINED ON THE MOVIE SCREEN WITHIN THE SAGA. There is absolutely no need for ADDITIONAL MATERIAL (be it TV shows, comics, novels etc).

    This is what made Star Wars truly special. We really needed a natural progression which I am sure is what Lucas intended and probably handed over to them. Instead they simply tried to replicate the OT. But if you want the OT, you just watch the OT. In the same way the PT was in a different time period and the OT was not the same period as the PT, the ST is a new time period that should be FOLLOWING ON and CONTINUING from the main saga (6 films).

    So by virtue of that, a random bad guy simply makes no sense in the context of this being one saga of 9 films. Supreme Leader Snoke cannot exist where Palpatine (Darth Sidious the Patient) and the Jedi, or the Empire existed. It makes no sense. I mean Count Dooku is given a backstory. Yoda is given a backstory. Etc. Characters are explained. Darth Vader is given a backstory. But Snoke is not???

    As for who he is, I really thought Lucas seeded Plageuis the Wise in subtly for a reason. And it would tie in the whole saga fabulously. Honestly it sounded good like there was unfinished business. Because like you said, we go from the galaxy celebrating with that uplifting Williams soundtrack in ROTJ. With the Empire apparently conceding, or about to change. Or change on the way. I had hoped Luke would be approached as Vader's heir for a peaceful transition. I personally don't want some corrupt Republic again haha.

    But we just get random galactic state of affairs which is not explained. The OT and PT explain the status quo. Here, when it is CRUCIAL we are told, we are not. Instead we spend time on labor strikes, blue milk and unbeatable new characters. And a main villain who seems unbelievably influential and powerful and has achieved what the CIS could not, what the Rebels could not, and what took Palpatine so much planning and manipulation, all of this achieved in 2 days??

    Frankly I also liked the Snoke is Windu argument. At least some way of tying this all together. Since there must be a reason for the saga to continue given the Sith were meant to have been defeated in Episode VI. There are some good moments, but given the characters and the galaxy appear aware of who Snoke is, and the audience do not is a big big problem.

    That other video explaining how Snoke is different from Palpatine is golden. Some people still seem to try to justify it and blame those who question his characters as haters. I want the ST to work. I love Star Wars. It's just that Darth Plageuis, I mean Snoke, well whoever he is, appears to just be randomly written and lazily (not) explained when he is crucial to the story, given the galaxy of ROTJ and the return of the Jedi has all been destroyed??

    I really wish we saw the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis the Wise. And it's a shame, because the Throne room scene was great. Seems like something that should have been in Episode IX perhaps. I like the idea of Palpatine having been overconfident and using Lightning to kill his master (which in fact didn't work). But some explanation of who he is. Force above, we need that more than we need to see those random debt collectors in TFA! I feel like the ST needed an episode (Episode 7) to actually be like Batman Begins with flashbacks to explain who the players are and what happened in the galaxy after ROTJ.

    And where is the Empire??
     
    Darth Geezy likes this.