ST Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in the ST

I'm of two minds about this. Sometimes I think we got all we really "needed," even if it wasn't as much as we wanted. I think of what it was like being J.J. and Andy coming up with this character, maybe only seeing the OT as what they needed to focus on and, the OT being much more sparse in terms of character backstories, being content with his rise to power being generally unknown. I try to think of other characters who are similar and have a similarly minimalist backstory.

Maz is the closest counterpart. She's older than Snoke, closing in on a thousand years. Snoke is "a couple hundred" years old, closer to Chewie than he is to Maz. Plus Maz is also Force sensitive, but somehow never became a Jedi or a Sith (at least that we know of). Of course, Maz's backstory is simply that she's been a pirate all this time, keeping low. Strangely that seems like enough, but for Snoke we don't have that, and here's where I shift back to thinking we do need something more.

We know what he's been doing the last 30 or so years, but what about before that? The TLJ novelization shed some more light on this, but it remains ambiguous enough that we don't know whether he was already living in the Unknown Regions or was part of the group of Imperials that Palpatine sent there as part of the Contingency. Simply finding out that he's from the UR would "solve" most issues, since that region seems mostly inaccessible, having its own history that does not often intersect with the known galaxy. But if he was part of Palpatine's elect, then . . . what?

I think one possible clue, regardless of which of those two general tracts (if either) ends up being his backstory, is that we're told that Snoke's strength in the Force, which is mighty indeed in TLJ, only really grew once his physical strength began to diminish. So it's possible that much of who he is by the time of the ST (his reclusiveness, his focus on knowledge, his strength in the Force) is very distinct from who he was in the past. He could've been someone closer to Maul in terms of power, more focused on the physical. That makes sense for a warlord from the UR, or even for a lower-key ally of Palpatine's. We know he had the inquisitors, but that does not necessarily exhaust his alliances, especially if they predate his ascension and the death of the Jedi, as was the case with his tenuous alliance with the nightsisters.

Either way, though I don't think they need to tell us everything about him, I think at least knowing whether he came from the Empire or if he was already in the Unknown Regions could give us a good general idea.

 

It’s a combination of the Aftermath series setting up the beginnings of the FO and the additional info provided in the extended edition of TLJ where they share some of Snoke’s thoughts about how he was underestimated and that nobody would have suspected it would be him who’d become the next big leader.

 

Is Sifo-Dyas' death still canon? It's hard to keep track these days.

 

Yes. To dispute would be guilty of heresy and invite excommunication. Anathema sit.

 

Ah, there goes that theory.

I was thinking of an epic, Sifo-Dyas is Snoke and is also Plagueis reveal that would link the trilogies up and also show who the true mastermind of everything was. The only mention we get of Sifo-Dyas in the saga films is that he went and got the clones ordered, but then that stunning revelation just kind of got brushed aside and forgotten about.

 

Some of Snoke's backstory will probably be in Resistance.

 

Well,

To be shiny seems to be a currently popular Disney concept.




@Darth Geezy,
Sifo-Dyas was a mere tool of Plagueis. He should be happy to get some moments in TCW, S. 6 at all.

 

I should hope so. Between Resistance and the live action series set 3 years after ROTJ, there's more than enough media to further explore the origins of the First Order, and that includes learning more about Snoke. Now we know that the ST is pretty much an ending for the older generation and a starting point for the new. And we know Dave Filoni loves exploring some of the more mysterious and cosmic possibilities of the Force, so that would be perfect.

The TLJ novelization certainly teased that Snoke's rise to power was due to the knowledge of the Force he had uncovered in the Unknown Regions. Read alongside the films, the clearest interpretation is that Snoke was among the Imperial refugees who fled into the Unknown Regions, one of Palpatine's trusted people who knew about both the Contingency and his Sith identity. This also seems to be implicit in the visual dictionary. It specifies that Snoke's attendants originated in the Unknown Regions, which to me says that he himself did not. But if this is the simplest reading, it does bring up the question of what Snoke's role was in Palpatine's Empire. He mentions acquiring knowledge once the Empire fled to the Unknown Regions, so perhaps his strength with the Force grew wholly from that.

Spoiler

In Snoke's narration he says that worlds in the Unknown Regions held knowledge of ancient truths about the origins of both the Jedi and Sith faiths. In many ways, the mythical Jedi Order hinted at in the OT has been restored with the new canon, but it now ties to the Jedi of the (very) Old Republic. Thousands of years before the current era of SW, the Jedi and the Sith had access to knowledge of the Force that gave them abilities that in the current era seem almost god-like. The Jedi had knowledge and perhaps communion with the mysterious Force-wielders of Mortis, and perhaps were even guided by them to create temples that could access or create the time portal of the world between worlds. The Sith were able to build weapons of mass destruction, the like of which the Empire and First Order had only begun to replicate. Other Force traditions were able to transcend death (mortis), and continue to exist as part of the Force.

Most of that is ancient history, probably best left mysterious and only as a legendary past that hints at an unreachable horizon of potentiality for what the Force may help mortals achieve. But what about those who have tried to gain that power, beings like Palpatine who sought greater knowledge (power), even if they did not always achieve it? Could a being of less threatening power grow to what we see Snoke wield in TLJ? Or was Palpatine more flexible with his alliances than we know?

 

Andy Serkis once again kinda teased a return as Snoke in the future in an interview with Joblo.com.

 

The key missing piece about Snoke for me is what exactly made him the center of gravity for the First Order, and why was Kylo was initially drawn to him. In terms of connectivity between OT and ST, and given his considerable Force sensitivity, it still strikes me as if he popped up out of thin air. TFA passed up on explaining anything about Snoke, likely because Abrams intended on revealing more about him in a later episode, and TLJ could have shed a bit more light on him in exchanges between Rey and Luke.

I like Snoke a good deal, largely because of Serkis' brilliant performance. He finds a way to echo a Palpatine vibe, while still making the character his own thing. But in terms of the broader storytelling, the current lack of Snoke's backstory makes for a somewhat jarring narrative gap in between the OT and ST.

 

I've only read bits and pieces but hasn't it been said that he was exploring the unknown regions for ancient knowledge for the past 50+ years before the remnants of the empire found him? His backstory isn't fleshed out but that's where he came from and what he's been doing right?
I don't see why his existence creates problems for Palpatine's narrative, it's entirely possible that he's an extremely powerful dark side user, powerful enough to control and turn Kylo Ren and keep him in check but not be a match for Palpatine. Hasn't Lucas said before that he intended The Emperor to be the most powerful dark sider ever? There's no need for him to be bigger and badder than Palpatine and that would contradict things somewhat.

I took his throwing Rey about and shocking Kylo as him feeling like he has to constantly assert himself because of some weakness, Sidious didn't throw Luke around like that because he didn't need to, he probably could've if he wanted to, I didn't take that as a show of immense power, I took it as insecurity. Vader bowed before Palpatine, that's a much more powerful show of force imo.

I don't think it needs a detailed explanation on screen, he's just not important in the grand scheme of things. There was always going to be more dark side practitioners in the galaxy, maybe the reason he's appeared now is simply because the threat of Vader/The Emperor are gone,. That's most likely why he hasn't been seen before now,

I'm sure that leaves people thinking, why didn't Luke just take him out then if he's not all that. I made another post about it before but basically getting aboard his superstar destroyer and facing off against him/kylo and 7 praetorain guards would be too much for anyone, even if individually Snoke wasn't that powerful with those protecting him he'd be damn near invincible.

Sorry for the ramble, but I just don't get the whole need for a Snoke backstory. It's all there if you read the subtext and have a quick gander at wookiepedia

 

Finally, here is the first meeting between Snoke and Kylo Ren:

Spoiler

 

No, Sidious didn't throw Luke around. He just grilled him a bit with force lightning and hoped meanwhile that he could turn him somehow to the Darkside instead of giving Vader new hands again once more. Luke, "irredeemable", was going to die during this procedure, so I wouldn't say exactly that Snoke did worser to Rey in the end.

 

It's not about us but the story. It didn't get anywhere near as much as was needed in this trilogy as of yet which is supposed to connect to the previous six movies.

There is no minimalist backstory though. There is nothing but a statement of what is evident. In the OT we knew the backstory was in the first 3 movies not the second three. Even then in the OT the basic basics were given out so as to make sense of what was going on.

No one is asking for everything. We don't know everything about Sidious but we know what is important and makes the story move. That he was a Sith and knowing what they do instantly and quickly covers pretty much everything before TPM. He has a master (Plagueis) and wants the Sith to rule again.

Why is Snoke doing anything he does? Why is he using Sith practices? Where was he during the decades the Sith were toppling the galaxy?

It's all really simple to do so for now I'm going to assume that they want to reveal it all in IX. I don't think that was the right way to do it. Building towards a finale is far stronger than just springing one in the last chapter. The problem that often occurs is that writers think it's so great to do but then fear that it bogs things down in exposition so they cut it out and then the tie that should bind the story threads together falls apart.

The OT was in the usual situation where that story didn't need to be told because it was the second trilogy and had one before it. The ST is not in that situation because it's the third and the first two exist.

 

Well, I have the feeling that the ST is in a situation that it is the fourth trilogy, the first two do exist but not the third one.

 

I think an earlier version of the Emperor in ROTJ had him wearing gold.

I still hope we conclude at a trilogy of trilogies. And now we’ve become so divisive. I had hoped the ST would have healed the division that the PT had created.

 

According to Serkis Snoke is more powerful than Sidious. And it appears Snoke had the upper hand between the two of them.

 

Now that's something I would have loved to see.

 

By upper hand I mean Palpatine could only sense a dark presence whom he theorized may have been the source of the dark side. Snoke, meanwhile, was aware of Palpatine and aware of Palpatine’s interest in him.

 

It's clear though that Snoke and Sidious represent to variants of tyranny. Sidious deceived society into adopting "might is right" and then struggled with maintaining his apparent legitimacy until he was able to take "right" out of the equation.

Snoke appears to be significantly less concerned with appearances from the beginning. Either his and the FO's might will rule, or it won't.

 

@The Legions of Lettow: My interpretation of the TLJ novel’s development of this plot point was that rather than being Snoke himself, the dark side nexus/presence that Sidious sensed was a world or worlds in the Unknown Regions.

This would be the same place(s) where Snoke said he developed his Force mastery, which enabled him to become Supreme Leader of the First Order. It sounds more like a dark parallel to Ach-To to me, though if we do see it I’m sure that idea will evolve.

What I’m less clear on is whether Snoke found that place on his own, as a separate party allied with the Empire, or as part of the Empire to begin with. The TLJ novel implies the last option to me, but it doesn’t clarify one way or another.

 

Yeah, that the dark side convergence may be a place is something I’ve encountered as well. My gut feeling is that Palpatine is unaware of Snoke and Snoke was on his own.

 

It'll be interesting to see if Snoke returns via backflash.

I'm less interested in the war in fandom around the 'need to know' factor as I am interested in specifically how his influence drove so many characters to this point.

The films do need to address this if we are to fully understand Ben Solo's decent into the Dark Side.

Luke, Leia, Han and Ben were all personally involved with Snoke. We're running out of characters to drop us a hint that there are depths to this tale.

I would have though Maz would help us? But she's seemed more interested in flirting with Wookie's and (I assume) shooting employees thus far.