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ANH is not as perfect as many claim it to be (discussion inside)...

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by PruneF8ce, Apr 11, 2002.

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  1. PruneF8ce

    PruneF8ce Jedi Padawan star 4

    Feb 5, 2002
    Just passing by for a topic that I felt needed to be read by SW fans...

    You cannot deny that ANH as a whole is very odd and out of place in the SW series as a whole in some respects. It's the least exciting of any SW film to date. Compare the duel to any. Compare the space battles to any. ANH has aged terribly IMO. It may have a good plot about Luke getting off of Tatooine and scoring a huge victory for the Rebellion. It also may have a cool opening sequence with the Star Destroyer fly by and a cool ending throne room sequence, and everything up to that weird fighting claymation game was fine, maybe even perfect, but it stands out in a negative way IMO. That is not to say I dont love it as a SW movie, it's just got faults, contrary to popular belief. Lets discuss.

    1)Complete lack of music.
    As it stands, it has like 7 variations of the force theme and main theme, plus 5 more minutes of music. Lets see, we got the DS imperial meeting chamber, NO MUSIC. Weve got the part where Vader checks if anyones on the Falcon with that long walk toward it. NO MUSIC. Weve got the arrival of the falcon on Yavin. NO MUSIC. Plus many more like this. What gives???? Of course select scenes need silence, but these and many others do not.

    2)Where is the Sith fear factor?
    No trace of Palpatine but a mere mention (dont say it, SHOW it!), and Vader's been pushed into the background. What good is a SW movie if we have no very fearful enemies at the forefront? All we get is some guy in a black mask that is subordinate to some human. Im sure EP4 would not have been written that way after ESB. Theyd push the Sith to the forefront rather than supporting players. Where's Palps and Vader taking their villainous lead in things? In some respects, ANH feels flat IMO, and this is a BIG reason why. I dont know about any of you, but I dont feel that the empire is headed by an incredibly evil and superhuman presence in ANH. In ESB, we got Vader, then we get Palps in ROTJ. Perfect. In ANH we get some governor. What the...? It loses half of its soul right there. Id like to see Palpatine doing SOMETHING in this movie.

    Some people say TPM has things that are different from the rest of the movies that make it the black sheep, well is supposed to. ANH is NOT. It's smack dab in the middle of the Empires reign. No excuse for zero sense of the Sith running the show IMO.

    3)Vaders weird prissy voice when hes not supposed to sound like that.
    He never would say "Take her away!" like that! And what about that super villain speech about "It has seen the end of Kenobi, it will also see the end of the rebellion". Can someone say cliche James Bond villain? C'mon people! That line alone contradicts Vaders style.

    4)Sabre Duel editing mistakes.
    The slow motion fighting that Alec and David do. Are we supposed to buy that? Man. And I dont mean slow-mo in an exaggerated way either. Its an editing mistake. They didnt want to break the glass rods. In the middle, its god awful. The climax lightsabre battle of ANY SW film, even though with old men, should not have mistakes like this. It drags it down. Its an anti-mood agent.

    I always cringe when that scene comes up, then they start battling believable again. Phew! For those who say its because theyre old, go watch the middle of the battle again and closer. Bad take. I couldve swore I heard GL yell "CUT!" ;)

    5)Outstanding editing mistakes,
    I could also mention as well that are hillarious, and NO WAY near as inconspicuous as the rest of the films. Vader's mincy pose when Leiah is brought to him?! The 4 second silent finger waving!? Oh and the middle of the sabre battle again. I already discussed that.

    6)Wheres the fearful monster that every SW film has?
    We get a fancy rope grabbing luke and a plastic eyeball!? What the ***??

    7)Wheres the scope of the DS battle? I think its kinda weird that we dont get to see any other X-Wings and such duking it
  2. Sara_Kenobi

    Sara_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Sep 21, 2000
    First of all, A New Hope is perfect. ;)

    It's as perfect as any film made 25 years ago can be. Sorry, likely close to 27. GL worked on that film a long time before it was released in 1977.

    You say how many years ago cannot be counted for all the mistakes in the film. I'm sorry, but it must be counted, if you want to be actually fair in your judgement of the film context.

    They simpally never had the CGI and all the other wonderful aides in making that kind of film, that they do today.

    Look at any Sci-fi film from 20, even 30 years ago, and you will see the same stupid little mistakes, and likely more.

    GL hadn't even close to the money he has today in making his films. It was given to him to make SW: ANH by the FOX network, and I don't know the amount off hand, but it was next to nothing for a film.

    I don't mean to bash your obvious frustration with the film. Many share your ideas. But I don't.

    You cannot place aside how long ago the film was made. Sorry.

  3. Dacks

    Dacks Jedi Youngling star 2

    Nov 3, 2001
    It has always been my favourite. It just seems to have that sense of adventure. I also think many of your "explanations" are silly, but I'm about to watch res evil so ta ta.
  4. Anonx

    Anonx Jedi Youngling star 1

    Apr 8, 2002
    PruneF8ce is just someone that constantly bashes the OT (only to have his topics closed by a mod/admin) & complains about non-existant plot holes.
  5. Corpsey_The_Ewok

    Corpsey_The_Ewok Jedi Youngling star 1

    Mar 27, 2002
    Basically, you're criticising ANH because subsequent sequels introduced new features/character development/special effects etc that improved on the original.

    Does this strike anyone else as asinine?
  6. Hatter

    Hatter Jedi Padawan star 4

    Apr 16, 2001
    I agree with amost everything you said, PruneF8ce. While I don't dislike ANH quiiiite as much as you do, I do think that it's the worst of all the movies. Frankly, I don't see the "magic", as Binary calls it, of 4 people running around a bunch of grey corridors for 45 minutes. It lacks the epic scope and far-out locales of the other 3.
    I guess I can look at it more objectively because I didn't grow up with it. I'm from the SE Generation. And while it was the first I saw, I enjoyed the other two much more. It annoys me to no end when people call it "perfect" and "magical", and their reason is, "well, I was a kid in '77, and it totally blew my mind. Me & my friends thought of nothing but SW for years." They're just looking at it through rose-coloured glasses. I can see where they're coming from, but it's fustrating when trying to properly debate a film.
    Athough I do realize that it was ground-breaking for the time that it was released. I give it some leeway there, in terms of special effects.
  7. SheGonnaBlow

    SheGonnaBlow Jedi Youngling star 1

    Apr 8, 2002
    You're comparing to today's movies and you can't do that. Just be glad that it wasn't made today. It would be filled with Matrix kicks and bullet time laser fights. The battles would be directed by the people behind Crouching Tiger and the musketeer! Storm Troopers would be martial arts masters and Chewbacca would be friendly and happy with a red bow in his hair to satisfy the "soccer moms". The Music is also some of Williams' finest.

    They did the best they could for 27 years ago. It was a god damn landmark in Sci-fi movie making. The time period and the budget for this movie must be considered if you are going to judge it.
  8. Dacks

    Dacks Jedi Youngling star 2

    Nov 3, 2001
    Well I think ESB and ANH are the best two because they didn't have to rely on fancy duels or a million ships on screen. Even the hoth battle. What do we really see? Two At-At's and a bunch of snowspeeders get destroyed. Yet the tension was still there, that's why it's such a great battle. Same with A New Hope. It might not be as flashy, but it has the right feel. And I didn't see it in 77, I wasn't born, so no "rose-coloured glasses" for me. The only reason I like ANH more than ESB because it's a little lighter, more fun.
  9. DarthDork

    DarthDork Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jan 24, 2002
    Mmmm... free time...
  10. Plo_Koen

    Plo_Koen Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 23, 2001
    I always assumed ANH was a bigtime Hollywood production...

    I almost fainted when I discovered how "cheap" it was made.

    Yes, ANH is perfect, warts and all.
  11. Mason

    Mason Jedi Youngling star 1

    Mar 21, 2002
    I would be willing to bet that Prune isn't old enough to have seen ANH in '77. If he had, he surely wouldn't be criticizing it in this manner. There was no 'Star Wars' before ANH(well..DUH!!). There was NO established paradigm for a 'Star Wars' movie. ANH gave birth to the SW universe, ESB and RotJ fleshed it out. When you factor in the fact that there were 6 years between the three films, with special F/X technology druising along(a-la ILM). Is it any surprise that the effects got better?

    Now, when you compare ANH to OTHER Sci-Fi movies of the time, it's brilliance shows through. ANH broke unprecedented ground in F/X technology, combined with a good story.

  12. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Oct 2, 2000
    Mason: Doesn´t matter, ANH still stands out as a slow movie with bad SFX compared to the other episodes. That´s not how it should be in a series!

    I´m with you, PruneF8ce! Let´s hope GL is as well :D
  13. StarFromIHJ

    StarFromIHJ Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 5, 2002
    I thought ANH was a tad bit slower because it IS the first movie in the series. It spends a lot of time on character introductions. For the rest of the movies we knew the characters so GL was able to just jump into the plot.
  14. SLAVE2

    SLAVE2 Jedi Knight star 5

    Apr 6, 2000
    There are lots of things wrong with ANH, but it was so low budget compared to the others it really wrong to compare. It is my least favourite of the 4, mainly because of the opening hour on Tatooine drags for me. But once they get to the prison block, its really magic.
  15. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Jedi Youngling star 5

    Apr 6, 2000
  16. Dark-Vador

    Dark-Vador Jedi Youngling star 1

    Oct 16, 2001
    I wouldn't compare it to standards of today, even though if you did it is still a kick-butt movie. It was made in 1977 don't forget. How many movies back then could compare to it? Yes it has its faults as all movies do. Excuse minor imperfections, I must say.
  17. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Oct 2, 2000
    StarFromIHJ: ANH is the first movie of the series, yes, but since TPM is the first episode of the series ANH doesn´t need the slow tempo(anymore).
  18. Plo_Koen

    Plo_Koen Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 23, 2001
    But let's not go into purist mode here...

    Lucas himself admitted that ANH could've been better, hence the SE, and I don't think it will be the last version we'll see of it.

    But most of it is to be left untouched!!!
  19. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Mar 19, 1999
    No other theatrical re-release has ever done as well as the SE edition of ANH. And it didn't make all that money because of a few added CG effects. It made all that money because the story has aged extremely well. The action still delivers, and it still delivers precisely BECAUSE of the intimacy of the battle scenes, an close-in, microcosm look at the dogfights that in my opinion is one of the main things missing from ROTJ and TPM. The rapport between our heroes still delivers. The music... well you're maybe the first person ever at TFN to suggest that the musical score of ANH doesn't hold up.
  20. Plo_Koen

    Plo_Koen Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 23, 2001
    <<<the opening hour on Tatooine drags for me.>>>

    The essence of cinematic GOLD, I say, it almost makes the second hour pathetic to me.

    You don't know how sorry I feel for you...
  21. Turkilma

    Turkilma Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jul 23, 2001
    @ PruneF8ce & Lars_Muul

    What do you want ?!?

    A complete RESHOT ANH ?!?
    I wasn´t even born in 77 (one year later though) and seen the movies on crappy Video 2000 bootlegs for the very first time and still think ANH is an OUTSTANDING movie !!!

    Yeah it has it´s flaws (and these are SE faults) here are 3 major changes I think that would make it perfect:

    ! Let Han shoot first
    ! cut out Jabba scene
    ! compose new music for the Mos Eisley "approach" scene and put the used Dianoga track back in the trash compactor scene where it BELONGS (that´s the worst change in ANH SE version IMHO)

    e voilá

    a perfect Sci-Fi Fantasy movie

    P.S. two minor changes should be made as well (but I don´t bother THAT much about these):
    fix Vader´s white saber & a better "Red Leader crashes into DS" shot.
  22. Boba_Darzel

    Boba_Darzel Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 30, 2001
    Clearly Pruneface has no idea of what he is talking about. How can you actually believe you cant take the date into consideration. ANH is in every way a perfect film, and clearly you dont know what a good movie is. If you want flashy lights and colors go watch Resident evil or Monsters inc. You want effects? go to those, because you dont need that junk to make a good movie. You also dont need music blasting every second, especially during talking sequences. A perfect example of lack of music during an exciting sequence is in HEAT, the main shootout has no music and is perfectly done. You dont necessarily need music during every damn scene. The battle scenes were pinnacle for the time, it was breakthrough for science fiction. I wasnt around for that but at least i know this to be true. Take a peak at any other sci fi movie of the time, you will never ever find a movie with as good a sequence (ie battlestar galactica).
    Theres no presence of sith domination because they were slowly being introduced, you want the villains to be laid out for you like laundry watch some childs cartoon if you need the villain to reach out and slap you in the face saying "IM THE VILLAIN FEAR ME".
    Dont use James Bond to compare to SW, you know nothing of Bond so dont use his name. Vader was pleased with his victory over OBI, and was going to be pleased with the end of the rebellion.
    Again you dont like ANH go watch some special effects spectaculaires.

    MAROOTHDROOL Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jul 26, 2001

    I think you may be my unconscious sock.

    I've always wondered what I've done during those blackouts. :p
  24. Plo_Koen

    Plo_Koen Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 23, 2001
    Let's not use a double standard here:

    Yes, some SE changes were disgusting,
    But you can't fool me that even the biggest purist wasn't impressed with seeing the Falcon actually leave Mos Eisley (I was blown away)

    But some people (and I sincerely believe the age difference matters here), are just taking it way too far.
  25. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Oct 2, 2000
    Turkilma: Almost.

    Jabbadabbado: No, he´s not the first....
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