ANH is not as perfect as many claim it to be (discussion inside)...

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by PruneF8ce, Apr 11, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, MOC Yak Face
  1. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    Some of us don't judge a movie based on the effects though. As long as its all believable, which the original ANH pretty much is, then its the plot, characterization, etc... of a movie that counts. That's why ANH is so amazing.

    There was a post above explaining why ANH was slower. About introducing the characters, whereas ESB and ROTJ could just jump right in. That's a great point, I think he hit it right on the nose. And ANH did a much better job of introducing the characters and establishing relationships than TPM did.
  2. SLAVE2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    You don't know how sorry I feel for you...

    Why, because I have different tastes to you? Dont act so superior that your opinion is the definitive one thanks.
  3. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Dacks: From your point of view.
  4. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    What ANH has in the music department is fine. The force theme when Luke speeds to the Lars homestead, the ending march force theme. But it needs more.

    Oh and most people missed the point entirely, like I thought they would. They take a portion of your argument (like SFX) and use it to try and discredit your entire mile long post. Pfft. Nice try. Please get the entire 3D scope and ideas of my post before responding to this stereotyped "ANH basher Idiot". Thank you.

    Its understood that it was made in 1977. Im not stupid. What matters now is that we have the opportunity to enhance it. Thats all.

    I thank you Lars_Muul.

    Peace...
  5. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    I was trying to be nice...
  6. stone_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
    prune - So what was your point? You think ANH has problems? Fine. However, people see many of the things you bring as ludicrous because ANH has in fact stood the test of time, and proven to be a landmark film. A quarter of a century after it was released, it's still on or near the top of thousands of "greatest movies" lists. Why change something that doesn't need it? You don't see anyone rushing to go change the blood in the Godfather movies because "it looks too out of date", or rushing to fill the wonderful garden sequence between Vito and Michael with noise because it's too quiet. Things that like are preposterous.

    Umm, I just re-read your number 3, about Vader's voice. I guess he should be monotone the entire time, like everyone in TPM, right? He should never have any infliction come out in his dialogue, is that what you want? You don't elaborate enough to really make any point, so maybe I am wrong in thinking this is what you'd prefer.

    The saber effects aren't great, but it's what they had to work with in 1977. Interesting that Lucas chose not to clean them up in the SE's. Seriously, sometimes I wonder if you think Citizen Kane should be colorized in order to make it seem more modern.

    You don't elaborate on the editting mistakes, so it's hard to comment on them.

    Not every SW movie needs a monster. But if you really want to argue, how about the fact that the entire DS could be viewed as a monster?

    The DS battle is indeed epic. A small band of freedom fighters against a seemingly insurmountable enemy. If the enemy wins, the entire band of rebels is destroyed. If not, the rebels live to fight another day. Plus, we get chatter and close-ups that allow us to get to know the pilots, and actually meet the people that are going to die, making their sacrifices more tragic. Brilliant film-making, IMO.

    Chalk #8 up to the fact that it was 1977, and Lucas didn't have any money to add in filler effects like what you want. Yes, a chase might have been cool, but what we got was still pretty intense, and fit just fine for the movie.

    All in all, what you see as problems, many of us don't. Perhaps if you would elaborate on a few of them a little more, I could offer some better rebuttals. But, without the masterpiece that is ANH, we would never have gotten any of the other films. At least appreciate it for that. :)

  7. StarFromIHJ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2002
    star 4
    I'm a she BTW. Not a he :p. I am the one who brought up the character introductions thing also.
    While TPM might technically take place before ANH it wasn't filmed then. So ANH is still the "first" movie. You know where Anakin ends up before watching TPM. It isn't as slow because you should know about the characters already. GL figured that the people going to see TPM would have already seen the Trilogy. Therefore they know some of the characters, what a jedi is, what The Force is, etc. So he had no need to restate everything he introduced to us in ANH. That is why TPM isn't as slow as ANH.
    And I personally think the music in ANH is fine. Sometimes quiet is eerier than sound. We are so used to hearing some sort of sound while watching a movie that the quiet made you actually pay attention. The best example I can give is in Buffy The Vampire Slayer (if any of you are fans). They had an entire episode where there was no talking. It is considered to be the scariest episode they ever filmed. So as the saying goes, sometimes silence IS golden.
    Also, during the climactic battle between Obi Wan and Vader is supposed to be slow. I personally think that Obi Wan was so slow to ensure that Luke got away from Vader. The longer Vader faught Obi Wan the more time Luke and company had to depart.

    I liked ANH just the way it is. And no I did not see it in 1977. I wasn't even born yet.

  8. Jedi Greg Maddux Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 1999
    star 6
    I agree that ANH isn't perfect (hey, no movie is!) but it's very, very close IMHO.

    I also happen to like how they introduced the baddies in ANH, very similar to the characters' styles. Vader strides in proudly in with Stormtroopers in the beginning of ANH... he's a very to-the-point villain who ensures that things get done his way.

    They made a mention of the Emperor in ANH, and we got a brief glimpse of him in ESB, and finally got to see him in person in ROTJ.
    This gradual introduction is like Palpy's gradual ascention to power in the PT.
  9. Edhel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2002
    star 4
    Although I prefer The Empire Strikes Back (slightly) there is very, very little I would change about A New Hope (a few effects plus the Greedo scene). I do agree with the point about Vader's voice however. It just sounds different to how it does in TESB and ROTJ. Maybe there's a novel that explains how he got a new voice synthesizer put in between ANH and TESB, I don't know, but he does sound different somehow.

    I agree with these people that a lot of scenes don't need music to be effective.

    StarFromIHJ, that is one of my favourite Buffy episodes with the creepy floating "gentlemen"!
  10. Gregatron Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 3
    Lies make baby Jesus cry.
  11. Edhel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2002
    star 4
    What lies Gregatron?
  12. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Obviously, I disagree with PruneF8ce.

    1. Complete lack of music. :confused: I've never heard that one before. The music has always been held, even by critics, to be one of the best things about the movie.

    2. Where is the Sith fear factor? Vader and the twice-mentioned Emperor are portrayed quite differently in SW than in the other films. But this is a good thing! The other films took the story in a direction that is quite foreign to the clean, elemental conflict between good and evil that characterizes this movie. Instead, we are given a tale of temptation and redemption in the sequels and prequels. Read the prologue to the novelization of SW. Also note that Vader refers disrespectfully to the Emperor in the book. Also note Tarkin telling Vader that he is the last of the Jedi's "religion". It was unfortunate that the weak puppet Emperor was turned into someone who overshadows the true villian of the movie: Vader.

    3. Vader's voice. This is the one point on which I have some agreement with you. I don't like the way Vader yells in the blockade runner. I prefer the cold, chilling voice in ESB. I don't however, have a problem with the line about the end of Kenobi and the Rebellion.

    4. Sabre duel. This is easily my favorite of the lightsabre fights. It is the only one that looks real. The others have the fighters perform feats that are appropriate for a superhero. This duel, however, looks like a couple of kendo masters facing off. It is easily the most intense of the sabre fights. Its tension is more than half intellectual, like the tension in a chess match between masters. And this is also similar to old Kendo masters dueling. Remember, one's strength flows away with age; but one's skill can continue to grow.

    5. Editing mistakes. Other than the finger waving, I don't see any problems.

    6. Fearful monster. The monsters have always been a minor background thing for me. I do prefer the "less is more" approach taken here and in the original ESB on Hoth. Compare that to the Rancor and those fish thingies in TPM. Monsters are scarier the less you see them.

    7. The DS battle. The things you complain about are what makes this battle the best action sequence ever. The viewer can follow what is going on in the battle. The tension builds and the battle follows a logical progression. Compare that with most other space battles, in which zillions of CGI ships buzz all around like angry bees, leaving the viewer confused as to what is going on (like a Nickelodeon commercial) and turned-off by the sensory overload.

    8. Stalemate Falcon sequence. :confused: I'm completely at sea on this one. This is a great action sequence. I don't know what to say.

    Terrible SFX? I think that SW already holds up better than the CGI in TPM does.

    Terrible control panels and displays? I like them the way they are. All a "fix" would do is make them look like this-worldly military control panels.
  13. Gregatron Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 3
    Evil lies...such as those that say ANH is flawed...
  14. Edhel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2002
    star 4
    "Terrible control panels and displays? I like them the way they are. All a "fix" would do is make them look like this-worldly military control panels."

    If it were a standalone film I would see no reason to change it, but seeing as the effects in episodes I-III, V and VI are all superior (or "different", if you prefer) then I think they should be changed in ANH for the sake of continuity in the context of the whole saga. It makes no sense for computer displays twenty years later (in the films) to be much poorer quality.
  15. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    StarFromIHJ: I said that ANH is the first movie. But: GL did not take into account that we had already seen the OT, he simply doesn´t introduce every aspect of the saga in the first episode. There you have it!

    EDIT:

    Prune: You´re welcome! :)
  16. HendrixFan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    I agree with you mostly prune.

    ANH is the least favorite of the 4 movies out now, and judging from what Ive seen and read of AOTC, it will soon be the 5th favorite.

    After watching TPM, Mos Eisley in ANH looks very bland. The extras walking in the background are all human, and might as well be on Earth. Its a spaceport, and should have many many different species, but it only does inside the Cantina, not outside of it on the streets. That and the examples you mentioned, would spice up the movie.

    I think the problem most these people here have, is that they think any change is automatically bad. The changes you mentioned really dont affect the story at all, just the feel. Adding music wouldnt hurt the movie at all, unless it was loud crashing music during those scenes. Just a little bit of a nice gentle theme playing in the backgroun. Maybe adding the Imperial March theme somewhere in the movie, since we know it appears in the PT. Adding exterior shots to the Falcon escape from the DS wouldnt affect the story either, just help to enhance the tension of the scene, as would most effect shot additions.

    I think after watching Ep1-3, Ep4 and to an extent Ep5, will have disappointing battle sequences. After seeing the massive scale of the battle in space in ROTJ, then the massive battle in AOTC and presumably Ep3 with the Clone Wars, the "grand" Empire will seem puny. The Yavin battle would play much better with maybe 30 seconds to a minute of added footage. That wouldnt impede the "intimate" feel of the battle as seen mostly from Luke's view. In ESB, increasing the size of the battle of Hoth would be nice. More than 5 AT-ATs approaching. More than 20 rebel soldiers on screen at any given time.

    I just personally feel that adding to the action scenes takes nothing away from the movie. It doesnt affect the storyline, and just helps keep the OT stimulating when compared to the PT.
  17. SLAVE2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Terible SFX? I think that SW already holds up better than the CGI in TPM does.

    [face_plain] Sorry but seeing the Tantive 4 get fired upon at the start is just nasty, the lighting is bad and its so obviously a model.
  18. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    ANH's low budget is both its strength and weakness, IMO. Strength, because it means Lucas focussed more on the characters and plot, and created a movie that was pure fun (which is why it became the most successful film ever, in case we forget). Weakness because ANH lacks the texture and epic scope of the other films.
    Binary Sunset may enjoy a Star Wars film more if it has humans in the foreground with aliens and monsters pushed far into the background (Chewie being the exception) but I don't. The sequels, and especially TPM, really feel like they are taking place in an alien galaxy full of weird and wonderful creatures. ANH was a good first attempt, but it wasn't Lucas's complete vision of "a galaxy far, far away".
  19. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Well, personally, ANH is my second favorite (snugly behind ESB) and I first saw it years ago through a friend's copy-of-a-copy of a cruddy VHS tape, of all things. I didn't have the benefit of experiencing it in the theaters back in '77, though I wish I had. Regardless, it still floored me, and it holds up amazingly well because the essence of ANH -- good story-telling and characters -- is what matters the most, and that is what lasts. (the same way The Wizard of Oz, Gone With the Wind, and The Godfather have lasted)

    When I look at some movies, I place technology (special effects, production quality,...) second in importance, if not lower. [face_shocked] What matters to me the most is the feeling the movie gives you and being moved by it all. And that's what ANH has done so well in my eyes. The "binary sunset" sequence with Luke, the slaughtering of his aunt and uncle, the thrilling last minute save by Han Solo at the end, the exciting trash compactor scene (well, it was exciting the first time I watched it at least), and the enthralling Throne Room finale. There are so many moments that moved me, I can easily forgive any of the flaws when the sum of its parts are done so well.
    It doesn't matter to me (in the original versions) that Alderaan looks funny when it blew up, or that I see white boxes around the spacecraft....the suspension of disbelief was still there for me, and the feeling of innocence and adventure was there too.

    Speaking of "technology", some of my favorite movies have been startlingly simple -- the silent films of Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin that didn't even have spoken dialogue or color or sound, or films that only take place in one or two settings -- like Rear Window, Lifeboat (in a boat for two whole hours), and a recent one I just saw, The Collector, starring a young Terrance Stamp (a.k.a. Chancellor Valorum). That whole movie takes place with only two actors, and in a basement for the most part. But what makes it wonderful and moving is the performance and the well-written dialogue....simple elegant words can be extremely touching without the need of extraneous effects or settings. "Simpler is most of the time better."

    That's great if you loved TPM but I still feel ANH did a remarkable job in introducing it all. I'm not sure what would've happened had TPM been the first Star Wars film ever...I don't believe the reception would've been as ground-breaking as ANH's auspicious bow back in 1977.
  20. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Lando hitting on Jar Jar? Now I've seen everything.
  21. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    Ok. I want everyone to just picture this for a moment:

    The DS is approaching Yavin along with a large ground army. The Empire sends a vast army of Stormtroopers to Yavin for a ground battle. SHOW the ground battle. What happens is, the DS decides to Nuke the planet after they realize their forces are losing on the ground, showing the pure evil the empire posesses, not caring if they kill their own troops in the process. And the stormtroopers would think it for the greater good, like wartime entails in real life. The X wing squadrons trying to down the DS learn that its about to be fired. All the more reason for luke to step up to the plate and score the winning hit.

    Action packed and just what that movie needs IMO.
  22. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
  23. stone_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
    Why send in ground troops when you can just nuke the planet in the first place? You don't lose any troops, and your opposition is wiped out in one quick stroke. The Empire was ruthless and greedy, so they were taking the easiest way out. The only problem was their overconfidence.

  24. AgentCoop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Ludicrous and unnecessary. More is not always better. By that logic we could make every one of these movies better by showing each and every soldier's individual perspective of events. That would be a pointless mishmash of explosions, flashing lights and pretty colors.

    That was one of TPM's major problems. Trying to show TOO MUCH. No focus. It gets to the point where you simply don't care about anything because the action doesn't stay in one place long enough to build any tension.
  25. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
Moderators: Darth_Nub, MOC Yak Face
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.