ANH is not as perfect as many claim it to be (discussion inside)...

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by PruneF8ce, Apr 11, 2002.

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  1. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    Prunef8ce,

    What I'm wondering is, how much of this do you actually expect to happen?
  2. DarthYosef Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 1
    Someone said above that the changes that you guys propose don't hurt the movie, only change the feel of it, or something like that. That's what I'm afraid of! The feel is fine as is, that's one of the things that makes a person love a movie, is the general atmosphere it creates. Adding the Imperial March into ANH, or adding music into silent scenes, or adding new footage to the DS battle, or changing Vader's voice, these things all change the feel of the movie, from a small effect, to a huge difference.

    Of course the movies won't fit together right, but nothing would stop that. The difference between the technology and funding avaliable for the PT and the OT is just too great. If they were to fit together, you'd might as well remake the OT.
  3. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    The DS is approaching Yavin along with a large ground army. The Empire sends a vast army of Stormtroopers to Yavin for a ground battle.

    Nah, it would kill the pacing of the end of the movie and ruin the suspense of the trench run, which as far as suspense goes, is really well done. Besides, it really doesn't make any sense. The DS blew up Alderan to make a point, why not just blow up the Rebel Base?

    Interesting enough, though, aparently in the novelation of ROJ, the Empire tries to do just that, blow up Endor after the shields had collapsed.

  4. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    Lars Muul:
    Dacks: From your point of view.

    Yes you are absolutely correct. Everything I stated was from my point of view. Everything everyone has stated was also from their respectives point of view. In fact even PruneF8ce's comments were from his point of view. So really, I don't know what the point of your comment was.

    One quick point:

    Fear factor? When ANH came out, Darth Vader was considered one of the greatest villains ever. So I don't know how this is not a good representation of the sith. Secondly, to say that some of the things he does don't fit with his character. ?? What ?? Unfortunately, his character only showed up for the first time in ANH, so the way he acts is exactly the way he is. If that doesn't seem to match with ESB or ROTJ, then it is those movies who don't match up, even though I feel they do just fine.
  5. HendrixFan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    Plo K0en, according to Rick McCallum, per interviews, they have been working on the "Archival Edition" for when all 6 come out on DVD (2005...2006?). He said they had already shot some of the new scenes that will be added to the movie, but didnt elaborate much more than that. The new scenes are supposed to tie together the two trilogies better, presumably things like showing Alderaan, showing the Senate before it gets disbanded, showing Coruscant (it still is the capital and nesting place of the Emporer) among other things. I think we may see more duplication of stormtroopers to help create the massive epic feel that the PT shows off.
  6. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, because I for one found the OT to be completely incomprehensible, seeing as how they didn't show us every square inch of the galaxy.
  7. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    HendrixFan, (me too!)

    I know that, but compare your list to Prunef8ce's...

    Prunf8ce, you know I don't like you, but there is one point where I ABSOLUTELY have to agree with you... Vader's speechless gesture, just cut the shot 2 seconds earlier and it's over with, it has no vintage value...

    (Unlike the stormtrooper hitting his head shot)
  8. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    I have seen that chat transcript, and McCallum mentioned archival editions, but has said NOTHING about new scenes being shot. To date, the idea of new scenes is nothing more than unconfirmed rumor mill talk and fanboy wet dreams.
  9. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    All the more power to those who believe little will be changed in any Archival Editions...
  10. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
  11. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    Yes we all know ANH will remain weird, but im just dispencing ideas. If not a trooper fleet before the DS explosion, then AFTER.
  12. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    After the DS explodes? Can you say anticlimactic?
  13. stone_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
    ANH is not wierd. This movie has stood the test of time, nothing needs to be changed. If you want more battles, rent ID4 or one of the Mummy movies. [face_plain]

  14. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    PruneF8ce:

    1) Not only is the music for the original STAR WARS (1977) an Academy-Award winning score, it plays--loudly, inescapably--through some 95% of the movie. You must realize you are in the slimmest minority conceivable when you complain about a "total lack of music" in Ep. IV!

    2) For twenty-five years, Darth Vader has been widely held as the scariest, most effective villain ever portrayed in the cinema. Through the late 70s right up till today, he has been featured (on genre magazine covers and in the minds of moviegoers) with the likes of Dracula, the Wolfman, the Alien, etc. You must realize you are in the slimmest minority conceivable when you perceive a missing "Sith fear factor" in Ep. IV!

    3) Vader's voice may be an octave or so higher than it is in the sequels, but it's still deeper than that of any one else in the film, and it fairly drips menace. Prissy?? Sir, I believe your minority just got smaller. It now consists of you and you alone.

    4) The so-called "editing mistakes" in the saber duel in STAR WARS were in fact compromises in the special effects. The animators who rotoscoped the film found that their tools were not narrow enough to illuminate a saber when it was pointed directly at the camera--a circular orb of light would result, which simply did not look right. So instead, the animators decided not to paint Kenobi's saber for approximately 1.8 seconds of screentime. We all know the scene. If that decision is enough to elicit groans of despair from you every time you watch ANH, I would have to suggest, again, that you are in a very small minority.

    Further, the duel in STAR WARS, as Binary_Sunset mentioned earlier, is in fact the most true-to-life. There are no superhuman flips or racing down hallways at top speeds. This is a fight between two masters of swordplay, and if you know anything about fencing or kendo--which I do, a little--then you know that the swordfighting moves evinced in the original STAR WARS are in fact real moves based on real combat techniques. Perhaps this information will give you something to contemplate the next time you see the movie, instead of noticing how slow they're going, which of course is how masters of swordplay actually fight, circling each other endlessly and waiting for an opening.

    5) Now you're just being silly. Vader's "mincy" pose? Even assuming his posture could be construed as vaguely effeminate--and I'm not saying it can be--how is that an "editing mistake"? Also, I for one never noticed Vader's silent finger-wagging until it was pointed out to me. And yet, every film is dogged by minor technical glitches like this. It doesn't destroy my immersion in the plot, or my fascination with the characters. I think you might be in the monority on this one, as well.

    6) PruneF8ce, open thine eyes! The Cantina sequence is rife with hideous monsters! How many gruesome aliens from that one 7-minute sequence have etched themselves into the collective unconscious of every human being in Western culture? I betcha I can name ten off the top of my head: Chewbacca, Walrus Man, Dr. Evazan, Greedo, Werewolf #1, Hammerhead, Snaggle Tooth, the Demon-horned guy, the fuzzy white thing, the spiked tentacle that looks at the Werewolf. IS that 10? And what about the chess match? Add at least a dozen monsters to the tally. Your minority may not even include you at this point.

    7) You said: "I think its kinda weird that we dont get to see any other X-Wings and such duking it out on other fronts at the Yavin battle. Its just "kaboom" one by one, and luke bobbing around in the cockpit for like 20 minutes. No other SW movie has this boring feel. Wheres the whole scope of it!? It feels claustrophopbic and repetitive in the sequence, and thats a no no for a GFFA."

    Wow. Okay, first, there are no other "fronts" at the Yavin battle. The Death Star--which has already destroyed one planet--is fast approaching Yavin IV. The DS has not arrived yet, you see, so even if they wanted to issue "ground troops", they couldn't, because THEY ARE NOT THE
  15. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Is this how gushers feel when we complain about TPM?

    It feels so incredibly wrong to be discussing ANH as a flawed film, after all, it *is* Star Wars heheheheh :D


    :)
  16. Turkilma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 2
    You´re absolutely right Vortigern 99 !

    Great post !

    I´m glad that I didn´t have to type such a long response ;)
  17. Mason Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    I am still completely baffled by those(like 'Prune'), who think ANH should undergo a major F/X overhaul in order to get it 'up to snuff' with the rest of the films.

    Newsflash to all 'geniuses': EpIII will come out in what, 3 years? That makes it 2005...that will make ANH 28, ESB 24, RotJ 20 years old, respectively. Do you suggest that ALL of these films go through the types of changes suggested for ANH? Maybe replace ALL 'masked' aliens with CGI?

    The OT are classic films, ANH especially, and while I don't have any real issues with doing 'touch-ups' on the OT, I am opposed to the types of changes you suggest as they would change too much of what is a classic movie.

    And to the individual who insinuated that not having seen ANH in the 70's doesn't matter, you are DEAD wrong. I seriously doubt that anyone who saw ANH in '77 would want anything about it changed(perhaps a few F/X enhancements, but that's about it). Someone younf, who sees ANH for the first time NOW, in 2002 is almost assuredly going to like it the least of all the SW films.
  18. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    Vortigern99:
    1) Not only is the music for the original STAR WARS (1977) an Academy-Award winning score, it plays--loudly, inescapably--through some 95% of the movie.

    This is wrong. Oh and read my other posts to see whether I liked what it had in the music department or not. Lame response.


    2) For twenty-five years, Darth Vader has been widely held as the scariest, most effective villain ever portrayed in the cinema. Through the late 70s right up till today, he has been featured (on genre magazine covers and in the minds of moviegoers) You must realize you are in the slimmest minority conceivable when you perceive a missing "Sith fear factor" in Ep. IV!


    Yeah well, the Jedi were the minority for a while there too and they were right. There IS 0-2% sith fear factor compared to the other movies. I dont care what your uncle, cousin, sister's cousin's uncle's 6th grade teacher, his dog, and his fleas say. Its nowhere near the level that its supposed to be at. Far from it.

    3) Vader's voice may be...higher than it is in the sequels, but...

    Stop right there. You just proved my point. It feels too weird and disconnected from the rest of this 12 hour movie. The end.

    4) The so-called "editing mistakes" in the saber duel in STAR WARS were in fact compromises in the special effects. The animators who rotoscoped the film found that their tools were not narrow enough to illuminate a saber when it was pointed directly at the camera--a circular orb of light would result, which simply did not look right. So instead, the animators decided not to paint Kenobi's saber for approximately 1.8 seconds of screentime. We all know the scene. If that decision is enough to elicit groans of despair from you every time you watch ANH, I would have to suggest, again, that you are in a very small minority.

    I suggest reading my posts thoroughly next time. The issue I was tackling was the "practice run" David and Alec do in the middle of the duel. Gently, as if they didnt want to hurt each other. If I had an MPEG of it, id show you exactly where it is, but I dont. Doesnt mean its not there. Its vivid.

    Further, the duel in STAR WARS, as Binary_Sunset mentioned earlier, is in fact the most true-to-life. There are no superhuman flips or racing down hallways at top speeds. This is a fight between two masters of swordplay, and if you know anything about fencing or kendo--which I do, a little--then you know that the swordfighting moves evinced in the original STAR WARS are in fact real moves based on real combat techniques. Perhaps this information will give you something to contemplate the next time you see the movie, instead of noticing how slow they're going, which of course is how masters of swordplay actually fight, circling each other endlessly and waiting for an opening.

    Im afraid editing mistakes are not performed by Kendo experts. This is just flat out wrong. I dont care if you do know a bit about the respectful art. Sorry. Its funny how you dont notice that short faulty sequence and its right under your nose. Are you just in denial!?

    5) Now you're just being silly. Vader's "mincy" pose? Even assuming his posture could be construed as vaguely effeminate--and I'm not saying it can be--how is that an "editing mistake"? Also, I for one never noticed Vader's silent finger-wagging until it was pointed out to me. And yet, every film is dogged by minor technical glitches like this. It doesn't destroy my immersion in the plot, or my fascination with the characters.

    Neither does it do that for me, theres more to it, if you understand my post, which obviously you do not. Tunnel vision. Ive mentioned more than just an editing mistake in that post. Take a note of it.

    Effeminite or not, the Vader we have grown to know in the rest of the movies would not put his hands on his waist and shift his weight like that to show attitude. Certainly not. NEVER. I say its an editing mistake, but what is worse is if it was intended. I tend to be optimistic
  19. Basil_Hennington Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2002
    star 4
    ah Prunef8ce, "we meet again at last."

    Anyway, Prune, if all of these replies mean nothing to you, why did you post this thread at all?

  20. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    Whether or not Star Wars has poor SFX is debatable, but it does have one of the best crafted scripts out of the four films so far, and in my opinion, that's what makes a great film, not effects.
  21. Patches Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2002
    star 3
    Well put, Oakessteve! Anyway...

    There IS 0-2% sith fear factor compared to the other movies.

    Vader's presence is always there. He makes such an impact in the time he spends on screen that the audience doesn't need to see more of him. He already incites fear with his swift appearances. ANH established Vader as one of the most evil men in cinematic history. ESB just built upon that base. The characterization you refer to in ESB would not be nearly as effective without what was previously established in ANH.

    Actually, it would be fairly easy to slip in an X wing squad battling a star destroyer above Yavin, after the DS has been destroyed. It would take nothing away from the scene. Have wedge score the big hit, and theyre home free.

    I disagree with this completely. It would take everything away from the scene. The Empire's biggest flaw is blatently obvious in this film- hubris. The Empire's arrogance was made clear by the fact that they didn't bring any support for the DS. It's also important not to forget that, up until this point, the Rebellion not had any major victories. They have been crushed.
  22. Edhel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2002
    star 4
    While I agree with PruneF8ce about some of the effects and Vader's voice (from a continuity point of view: it IS a 6 part saga after all) I would leave the ending well alone. I do not see any advantage in adding any extra ground attacks or Star Destroyers or anything like that. To change it would be to make it anti-climactic. The other pilots (except Wedge and a Y-Wing) all die, and it is Luke who uses the Force to fire the killer shot to destroy the Death Star. It's great, leave it as it is.

    Patches, good point about the Empire's arrogance. There was no support fleet (Star Destroyers or whatever) because they weren't considered necessary. All the DS has is TIE squadrons. This was different in RotJ, of course. And they fixed the exhaust port design as well, showing that the Empire is not completely stupid.
  23. HendrixFan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    Mason, there are very few CGI aliens in the PT, most are masked aliens. THe problem I say with Mos Eisley in particular, when compared to the Tatooine shots in TPM, was the complete lack of aliens. Outside in the streets every extra was a human. Only in the cantina did we see a gathering of aliens.

    Patches, I think you are right about the Empire's arrogance. Tarkin believes there is no danger, it is Vader who actually tries to do something to stop the rebels. That being said, the small amount of CGI they did to enhance the Yavin scene for the SE looks very good in my opinion, and makes the sequence more interesting.

    I see Star Wars (the entire saga) as something more like Lord of the Rings, in that it is constantly changing and evolving over time, making itself better and more consistent. I can understand why that would upset people who are dearly attached to the orignials; but in the end it only serves to make all 6 movies as good as they can be.
  24. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    Can we just throw out the critisicm of Vader once and for all? Because in ANH, you see Vader for the first time! So how can you say he is inconsistent with the rest of the saga? Because, by the time ESB rolled around, he had become more menacing?
    Well, if Vader's a problem, so is Luke, Leia and Han. I mean, Luke was a whiny *@(#% in ANH, but in ROTJ he is a bad-ass jedi. Oh no, we better re-shoot ANH. Han is a greedy $*#@$ in ANH, yet by ROTJ he is willing to sacrifice everything for the rebellion. OH NO, what a mistake, we better re-shoot ANH.

    Look pruneface, everyone has their own views. Unfortunately, when 99% of the population likes something the way it is, then usually it doesn't get changed. Hollywood is not in the business of reshooting movies to please whiny fanboys who think you need fast-paced action, monotone characters and cgi monsters, last time I checked. Go watch TPM again if that's what you want.
  25. SLAVE2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    "Doors locked move onto the next one"

    OK, they are searching for the droid that has the only piece of information that can stop the ultimate weapon, and they dont check a place because its doors locked?? Do they not think people trying to escape would lock the door? I find that part of the script laughable :p And i dont care for the explination that Stormtroopers are stupid, that just makes the Empire seem crap.
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