ANH is not as perfect as many claim it to be (discussion inside)...

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by PruneF8ce, Apr 11, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, MOC Yak Face
  1. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    One thing: how the hell do we start EP1-3 with more sith fear factor and control of the evil scheming than in EP4, (Some human Tarkin in command of the empire as shown to us) the middle of the saga!?! EP1 is peacetime for christ sake and its got more sith presence. As well as 5 and 6 after. The presence is vivid.

    Someone tell me. What did they do? Take a BREAK!? Vader doing a couple of evil things, yet still being a b**ch to some human is not my idea of the true sith control aura that comes with every other SW film.

    Might as well have NO sith in EP4 if a human is running things OVER the sith. Vader was pushed into the background for some human that dies in the same movie.

    Like a sore thumb. No question about it.
  2. StarFromIHJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2002
    star 4
    As one poster mentioned before by the time ANH starts the Empire has gotten cocky. They already HAVE control so why do they need to show their presence? It is also a way to establish the fact that Vader takes his orders from Palpatine. The fact that Palpatine is Vader's Master is the ENTIRE WAY Episodes 1 - 3 tie into 4-6. Without knowing that fact it would be like having 2 different trilogies seperate from one another. The fact Palpatine isn't around but is ordering Vader to do certain things shows that Vader is in debt to him for something.
    As for the fact Vader changes throughout the trilogy, it's called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. Look it up!
  3. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    They already HAVE control so why do they need to show their presence?

    The same reason why they show their presence in the rest of the damn films. DOnt tell me you think their "ease" because theyre in power for a while is the soul reason why the Empire as well as the Sith just arent as scary as in the rest of the films.

    No matter what SW movie or era whatever, It helps to give the heroes a sense of morbid danger from the tyrannical sith who OWN the empire.

    For an example that did it better than EP4, even though it was on a smaller scale, look at EP1 and AOTC: the heroes are in danger because they dont know the evil precence behind it all and pulling the strings in the background. In the same vein, In EP 5 and 6 we FEEL the oozing precence of the Sith's sinister evil controlling things and things being carried out according to their design. EP4 is some governor. And the one sith that we get to see is apparently subordinate to him, his slave. Pfft. What a jip!

    It is also a way to establish the fact that Vader takes his orders from Palpatine...The fact Palpatine isn't around but is ordering Vader to do certain things shows that Vader is in debt to him for something.


    Except we dont even know that Vader gets his orders from palps in ANH. Its 4 episodes into the saga, 20 years lap[se from EP3 and here we see Vader obeying someone who might as well be a nobody to the sith when it comes to obeisance. Tarkin orders Vader around. Thats all there is shown. What the hell is going on!? Your argument collapses on itself right there.

    The fact that Palpatine is Vader's Master is the ENTIRE WAY Episodes 1 - 3 tie into 4-6. Without knowing that fact it would be like having 2 different trilogies seperate from one another.


    Exactly. Youve just proved my point. I thank you. ANH fails to give us this HUGE piece of information. The Sith chain of command is missing. I repeat: Its 4 episodes into the saga, 20 years lapse from EP3 and here we see Vader obeying someone who might as well be a nobody to the sith when it comes to obeisance. No trace of palpatine giving him orders. We now get someone who has no sith powers ordering Vader around, and are not told its palpatines will. It simply and sadly just comes off like GL didnt have his ideas about the Emperor all on the table yet, being that it was made in 1977.


    Now, if Palps had TOLD Vader in ANH (with a scene of them walking together on his Coruscant lair or something) to stay aboard and obey the chain of command, It'd soften the dissapointment, but not as it stands.

    No Sith presence where it counts. 50% of its soul and excitement is gone right there with that 1 issue.

    As for the fact Vader changes throughout the trilogy, it's called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. Look it up!

    The man has had 20 years as Palpatines right hand to develop his imposing character and presence. This makes no sense.
  4. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    As a matter of fact. Im wagering that EP3's Vader will be far more scarier in voice and mannerism (like EP5 and 6) than ANH's poor imitation of Vader (most of the time), as it stands. Im wagering Vader will quickly develop his mannerisms (it will feel more like EP5 and 6),imposing character and presence, or surpass ANH in these departments, which will make ANH look even weirder and out of place.

    The development in Vader in ESB is that hes a father, and wants his kid to join him. It humanizes him a bit. ROTJ is his inner issues of loyalty to Palps and the man he once was.

    It shouldnt be that hes got a deeper more menacing voice and is more imposing! That stuff shouldve been done long before ANH! How silly!
  5. Yeth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Why is it ok to bash some points of ANH when the WHOLE story is not finished,but we must wait until the whole story is finished to bash some points of TPM?

    Seeing as it is,a story that will/might be understood when it is complete.
  6. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    One could say, why not? Let the youngsters (not generalizing) have their Sith and CGI stuffed OT, we'll just watch the originals or the SE's.

    But it doesn't work like that...

    It's like seeing your ex-girlfriend with her new boyfriend.
  7. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    Let the youngsters (not generalizing) have their Sith and CGI stuffed OT, we'll just watch the originals or the SE's.

    Actually, im sure it has nothing to do with age if people want their saga presented as perfectly as possible.

    But it doesn't work like that...

    It's like seeing your ex-girlfriend with her new boyfriend.


    And THAT is my gripe. Its okay to like the older versions, but dont go and say enhancements shouldnt be made for ANYONES viewing pleasure, just because you think the older ones are "perfect".

  8. Basil_Hennington Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2002
    star 4
  9. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    For the last time, you cannot say that the Vader in ANH is a "poor imatation of Vader". HE IS VADER! That's where Vader started! Everything else is a development of ANH Vader!

    Pruneface, please respond to everyone's comments and not just the ones that you can reject.
  10. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    For the last time, you cannot say that the Vader in ANH is a "poor imatation of Vader". HE IS VADER! That's where Vader started! Everything else is a development of ANH Vader!

    Pruneface, please respond to everyone's comments and not just the ones that you can reject.


    FOR THE LAST TIME, I had addressed this issue in my very first post. READ!


    PruneF8ce
    Note: Please dont say that "EP4 MADE the style of SW so who am I to question it." Look at it in context, then come back and talk.

    PUT THE FRICKEN THING IN CONTEXT. I cannot stress this enough.

    Also, like Ive said before:
    The man has had 20 years as Palpatines right hand to develop his imposing character and presence.

    Vader's delayed character development from Ep4 to 5 will make little if no sense now that were getting the backstory.

    Besides, even if they do find a way to justify it (no matter how tenuous it may be)by the most slightest miniscule chance make him act like ANH vader, and somehow relay that hes supposed to act like this after 20 years of being Palpies right hand badass, I still say its a wasted opportunity and makes a lack of a good villain in ANH.

    Seeing as it is,a story that will/might be understood when it is complete.

    To both of you: When EP3 is done, Vader will feel weird in ANH, as ive explained in the last couple of posts. Theres a 99% chance. Mark my words.

    I mean, people have been impatiently and fanatically waiting to see the eerie presence of vader onscreen again for 20 years and theyre gonna go with the subdued version from ANH!? As if.

    Why is it ok to bash some points of ANH when the WHOLE story is not finished, but we must wait until the whole story is finished to bash some points of TPM?

    It is like 99.9% likely that the feel of TPM is there on purpose and there to contrast the mood thats up ahead. On the other hand, it is 99.9% certain that certain aspects of the overall feel of ANH is NOT there on purpose and is due to lack of developed ideas for the star wars epic feel (due to being made in '77 and being the 'rough draft' if you will, and not seeing how the saga would flesh out), as Ive discussed before. Theres a difference.

  11. Jedi_Mara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 1
    give Georgie a break! it was way back in the 70's when they didnt have that great of technology to do the stuff they can do today.

  12. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    I did read your first post. In no way did it address the point I was trying to make. For example you said

    He never would say "Take her away!" like that! And what about that super villain speech about "It has seen the end of Kenobi, it will also see the end of the rebellion". Can someone say cliche James Bond villain? C'mon people! That line alone contradicts Vaders style.

    This is what I'm talking about. Nothing he does in ANH can contradict his style, because ANH defined his style. I could also point out for you differences between ESB Vader and ROTJ Vader. The fact is that characters change over time.

    I disagree with most of your comments concerning ANH, but in each instance it can be attributed to our different opinions and preferences. But on this issue, I feel your point is illogical.
  13. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    I will now list the parts that I felt were excellent for vader to do in ANH.

    1) The entrance on the blockade runner.
    2) Holding that rebel up 3 feet from the ground, then dispersing with him.
    3) Almost strangling Motti.

    But these are not enough due to his lack of the feel of CONTROL of the empire, and other un-characteristic behaviors he has in that movie. I am not afraid of a vader who makes it a point to put his hands on his waist and shift their weight to the other foot, shaking their hips. I am not afraid of someone who has a Dr. Evil speech in the middle of the movie. I am not afraid of someone who has superpowers, yet is a slave to a mere human, since weve show that NO humans have authority over the sith. That is not scary. Sorry. The bad far outweighs the good.
  14. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    For what it's worth, PruneF8ce, I think if Lucas was making ANH today, a ground assault on Yavin would be one of the things he would definitely add. If you look at the final battles in the other films, they all give each of the heroes something to do. However, in ANH, Leia and 3PO just sit around waiting to be blown up.
    As for Vader's characterisation, I think he only seems weaker in ANH in retrospect. I believe Irvin Kerhsner's direction in ESB allowed Vader to be far more impressively acted, both physically and verbally.
    But pretty much all of ANH's flaws are a result of the lower budget and Lucas breaking new ground. He did the best he could with the resources available.
  15. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    Nothing he does in ANH can contradict his style, because ANH defined his style.

    The same lame statement over and over. Im gonna have to ignore you if you fail to see logic or read my posts and get the sense of it. Ive went over it already. Its done. Its over. GO BACK and read the entire topic. I dont feel like finding it again.

    I could also point out for you differences between ESB Vader and ROTJ Vader. The fact is that characters change over time.

    I knew someone was gonna use this lame way to try and justify the VAST difference between ANH prototype vader and ESB/ROTJ vader. The changes look like the natural progression of things from ESB to ROTJ. From ANH to ESB, it looks like GL didnt have his ideas fleshed out. Hed feel more present in the movie if EP4 were made today. trust me.

    You obviously have not read my posts.

    PrunceF8ce
    The development in Vader in ESB is that hes a father, and wants his kid to join him. It humanizes him a bit. ROTJ is his inner issues of loyalty to Palps and the man he once was.

    It shouldnt be that hes got a deeper more menacing voice and is more imposing! That stuff shouldve been done long before ANH! How silly!

    ...The man has had 20 years as Palpatines right hand to develop his imposing character and presence. This makes no sense.



  16. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Here's the thing. If Lucas does, in fact, make these sweeping changes to the OT that everyone seems to think he will then he will be showing the world that he lacks any kind of artistic discipline whatsoever. A work of art, be it a painting, song, novel or film, has a life of it's own. It's a sort of snapshot of the artist's vision and it exists in a particular time. Going back and rearranging it's parts on a whim just because you can undermines this principle. The work is never finished, it remains in a constantly amorphous state of flux. If "Star Wars" is going to be reimagined every twenty years or so like this, then what IS "Star Wars" really?
  17. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    Pruneface, I re-read the whole thread and it was a waste of time. You have not given any good arguments to my point. At least quote something, so that I can tell you why it was not a good argument.

    Secondly, the reason Vader doesn't change as much between ESB and ROTJ is because they took place a year apart. ESB took place three years after ANH.

    But the point is you have not addressed any of my arguments. You just keep saying "Read the thread, read the thread." Why don't you read some of my comments and come up with an answer.

    And anyway, the imperfections we see in Vader, if you think they are imperfections, match up quite well with the Anakin it looks like we'll see in the prequels.

    So please reply, and instead of just saying my reasons are "lame" why dont you actually address them. Otherwise you're pretty pathetic at backing up your statements.
  18. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    DarthHomer:
    However, in ANH, Leia and 3PO just sit around waiting to be blown up.

    Exactly. Another way this movie lacks excitement. Possibly even bad scripting because of this.

    But pretty much all of ANH's flaws are a result of the lower budget and Lucas breaking new ground. He did the best he could with the resources available.

    Yes, and I respect his effort now, but we have the opportunity to fix it now. Thats my whole point.

    AgentCoop
    A work of art, be it a painting, song, novel or film, has a life of it's own. It's a sort of snapshot of the artist's vision and it exists in a particular time. Going back and rearranging it's parts on a whim just because you can undermines this principle.

    Not this lame excuse to leave it alone again. Weve went over this Agentcoop, and it boils down to POV.

    PruneF8ce:
    I am a SW fan and not some classic vintage film connoisseur. I respect its classic status. HOWEVER, I couldnt care less about those matters when the homogeneous of ALL of his movies will be muddled if it stays in that state. Rightly so I look at the 6 hour film (the big picture) and see a crucial part of the mega-story that has more potential. Sue me. Lynch me. I dont give a flying ****. I believe in the long run, when some of you mature and see this huge picture, that I will be proven right in the matters of homogeneous blending of the 12 hour movie.

    And now I address your last statement:
    If "Star Wars" is going to be reimagined every twenty years or so like this, then what IS "Star Wars" really?

    Thats a nice exaggeration to rally support against the idea. Crafty. When GL is finished wirth all 6 films, and they fit together the way theyre supposed to, that is the cutoff point. Dismiss any thoughts about tweeking it every 20 years, cause there are many points that poke holes in this reasoning as to why NOT to do it:

    1) All SW films were not finished back in 1983.

    2) The SFX and other matters are uneven throughout trilogies (mainly ANH as the culprit)

    3) This movie strives to be the most visually stunning saga out there, and subsequent films were successful to relay this better. To limit a few pieces of the composition to the technology of the time it was made is ludicrous to me if it is to be seen as 1 large movie. Thats like having a pristine and digitally mastered 1st hour of a film, yet leaving the last hour of the movie black and white with film intereference spots and lines for no canon, story telling, or perceptive purpose (Wizard of OZ acknowledged). And dont anyone go on a rant about the OT having SUPPOSED to look like that for the empires reign. Dont say the OT is supposed to have explosions blow up like firecrackers, displays like atari, and space scenes with obvious models.

    4) GL originally wanted to make 1 huge movie with all of these events taking place, but that was improbable at the time (maybe even now!). He had to split them up over a large span of years. Many factors are the reason why. SO some "moral code book" as to how classic movies should be treated should deny him the right to blend it in like its supposed to!? Lets be real and not hold on to red tape statutes and regulations, like the republic ;)

    So, It is my POV and GL's that the "keep it vintage" train of thought does not apply to this situation.

  19. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    Pruneface, I re-read the whole thread and it was a waste of time.

    Dacks, im sorry if you come back from reading the topic only to give me that response. Please open up another thread if you cannot get the sense of it. Because its there. Enjoy the rest of the forum. :)

  20. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Aparrently, the idea of making the prequels fit smoothly with the OT never occurred to you.

    Or Lucas.
  21. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    Im sorry, that would be working backwards, Evolutions technology wise, and layout wise.

    Why would GL limit himself when he can complete the fantasy better with todays technology? And why would he think up ingenious ways to make the new episodes exciting, then dismiss it because theres a low roof to excitement that SW has from the OT!? That makes no sense to me. I dont know why it doesnt to you. But its a POV.
  22. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    If Lucas is the filmmaker he's supposed to be, it wouldn't affect a thing. A few minor visual tweaks using that CGI you have such boundless faith in would be all it would take to give the Prequels enough of a similar visual feel to the OT that it wouldn't be jarring. Far from limiting him, it would actually free Lucas up to do what he's supposed to do: Tell a compelling story. If it's not just about eye-candy, then how would a different visual style place any kind of ceiling whatsoever on the kind of adventure Lucas could create?

    And as far as having the beginning of the saga take precedence over the end, that would be fine. If the end hadn't already been indelibly etched into the consciouness of the audience.

    It's called painting yourself into a corner.
  23. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    Look PruneF8ce, if you'd rather flame than come up with a real argument, let's do it in PMs.

    Otherwise, why don't you respond to the points I have made. These are not sufficient respones:

    Dacks, youre hopeless. Go to another thread if you cannot get the sense of it.

    You obviously have not read my posts.

    The same lame statement over and over.

    FOR THE LAST TIME, I had addressed this issue in my very first post. READ!


    Read my posts and come up with valid counterpoints. Please don't resort to calling them "lame", because I find that rather pathetic and annoying of you.
  24. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Prune, suppose Lucas decided the prequels would be better if Anakin did not become Vader. By your logic, that would justify removing all references to Vader's paternity in the OT. The OT established continuity, the prequels mustn't contradict what is established. Give you another example: Yoda. He didn't originally exist; he was created for ESB to make up for the fact that Obi-Wan had been killed. By merely including him, the prequels are maintaining the OT's continuity, not vice versa. If the original outline for the prequels were really calling the shots, there would be no Yoda.
  25. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    Ok then. For the risk of me being banned because the door swings 1 way in these forums, I will now ignore a potential flame war between me and Dacks. There. Ive said it.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, MOC Yak Face
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.