ANH is not as perfect as many claim it to be (discussion inside)...

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by PruneF8ce, Apr 11, 2002.

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  1. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    That was a very good, insightful post agentcoop, about the need for a temorary lull.

    As much as it's great to have symmetry and parallels in all six films, I also like it when they each have their own identity and do something not quite like in the other films -- that makes them stand out more. I love how there's a sense of sparseness in ANH, like "a new hope" is coming over the horizon. And it reminds me of a dawning sunrise, arriving slowly but burning brilliantly (Luke), if that makes sense. :confused:

    I also like it when Lucas changes things around and when he doesn't exactly follow a rigid blueprint when making these films. It would be kind of dull in my eyes if there was a "big battle" with four/five intercutting stories at the end of every film -- too predictable. As an example of unique structuring, in ESB, the big battle is placed at the beginning. People thought he and his crew were nuts -- people would've wanted to go home after this exhaustive Hoth battle. But it worked, and people were still hooked, Lucas still topped it with a great father/son duel.

    And Yoda, I liked how he was absent from ANH. Even if it wasn't intentional or not, it seemed to make his introduction that much more wonderful...I'm sure when we see this as a 12-hour series, it will be like finally seeing an old friend after a 20+ year absence. I just use this as an example of my belief that not every major character should be in all six films even though they could've of. Having staggered appearances makes it kind of surprising and interesting. (At least for a first time viewer if they saw this 12-hour series in one sitting.)

    As for Tarkin, perhaps he may be explained further in Episode III. Personally, I didn't mind that Vader was a subordinate (was he?), I always kind of felt they were working side-by side, just my opinion anyways. Maybe Lucas will write in Episode III how Palps starts getting more detached -- perhaps he's pleased with his manipulations, and he puts both hands behind his head and puts it on "cruise control" and let's regional governors and commanders handle the dirty work for a while. And then, when Palps sees the utter incompetance after ANH, he get's irate and starts doing the dirty work himself. I'm sure Lucas will write something better than that, but I'm pretty sure he will cover his tracks and the jump from Episode III and ANH regarding Palps won't be as glaring.

  2. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    And then there's the (hopefully) small chance that AotC and Ep. 3 will suck, which would cause the PT to fade into general obscurity in future generations, leaving the OT as classics.

    Riiiiight... moving right along :D

    Agentcoop:
    By the time our hypothetical viewers get to ANH they will already have sat through some six-plus hours of film. In those six hours they will have no doubt been assaulted by and awash in a sea visual spectacle. Aliens, space ships, epic battles, CGI everywhere. I'm sure it will be quite the sight, and if the prequels turn out right they will have been left in a state of some emotional exhaustion.

    ANH has just about the perfect tone. Nothing too heavy, and not over the top. It's sparseness in some areas will, in this marathon of moviegoing, be it's greatest strength. And it's "claustrophobic" feel will serve as a welcome lull in the action. Otherwise, the relentless sensory overload of half a day's worth of special-effects-laden action sequences...


    Wait. Youre taking this "12 hour film" thing the wrong way. Normal people will of course take breaks throughout. Maybe even days between movies. That still doesnt mean that GL doesnt want it in the 12 hour movie format. Youre picturing people sitting down for 12 hours and staring at the screen!? LOL!

    A symphony is not composed by striking the same note over and over.

    I said nothing of the sort. I agree about the sensory overload, even if they ARE split up. There should be a break. Thats why the OT is more removed from a lot of huge sights etc. Thats why the sabre battle is slower in ANH. Thats why the OT doesnt look brand new anymore in design. It IS more of a western (was that you who put it that way?) However, ESB does not overload the senses and still has better action sequences, villains, and scope. Your argument cannot be the ONLY reason if ESB and bulk of ROTJ did it sucessfully without being boring.

    sweeping alien vistas and scenes crammed to the gills with all manner of CGI curiosities will serve only to leave the viewers numb. By the time they get to Anakin's redemption, they won't care any more.

    Ive addressed splitting the movies up. But still, thats why the action and grand visual sights (an example would be Coruscant) and brilliant costumes etc. is toned down in the OT, like from 100% to say 60%. ANH as it stands is like 30% when it comes to excitement and visual scope. Not good. No movie in the saga, no matter if its in the middle, should be that low.

    I dont believe that's the sole reason for the things I've discussed. You may, but that just feels like a blatant excuse. Like I've said before, theyd make ANH VERY different if they made it after ESB or nowaday's EP3. Im willing to wager that AND itd fit right in and give people a visual break, while still keeping SW quality.

    Your justification is by no means an excuse for bad SFX, no reason as to why Vaders obeying a human with no stated or insinuated reason while at the same time giving off an unacceptible aura of power, no reason as to why certain mannerisms of his are completely uncharacteristic and off key, no reason why the sith as a whole mysteriously have plummeted their aura of complete and utter control, and no reason for such a claustrophobic feel thats OBVIOUSLY because its budget was tight. If ESB and bulk of ROTJ can do it and still give people a sensory break, ANH can too.

    To restate, WHY is ANH claustrophobic?

    This is besides the beautifully executed opening space fly over sequence, (minus some effects) and those similar to it.

    One instance would be the stalemate falcon sequence, yavin battle: too much blah blah inside of the cockpits of the fighters without enough exterior to balance it out, the tattoine sequences (which is what I like best in this movie) is left without an equally out in the open 2nd hour of the film. Back in the days of ANH, space scenes were hard to do, so they did the bulk of their shooting in closed out areas. Theres nothing wrong with closed out areas in a GFFA, just have t
  3. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    As an example of unique structuring, in ESB, the big battle is placed at the beginning. People thought he and his crew were nuts -- people would've wanted to go home after this exhaustive Hoth battle. But it worked, and people were still hooked, Lucas still topped it with a great father/son duel.

    That was indeed a good decision, but you cannot tell me that ANH wouldve turned out the same way if they had a better budget. Its unique structuring is a result of lack of technology and money, not to structure the story. Now when it just so happens that it is EVIDENT that technology didnt hold it back, that is when we know that the sole reason for its feel is because the story needs a break.

    I mean, they had the Hoth battle, then a great sabre battle. Unique structuring. ANH had a closed in Space battle, and a very small sabre battle (not knocking the intended slowness oof it). You see? Its a step down, and its obvious that its not on purpose.

    And Yoda, I liked how he was absent from ANH. Even if it wasn't intentional or not, it seemed to make his introduction that much more wonderful...

    That is not that apparent that its from a lack of funds or ideas. I too liked how he was absent. It messes with nothing, because Obi Wan is there, and the 2 Jedi alive are supposed to be scattered across the galaxy anyway. That fits right in like a glove. The sith control does not however. Its the peak of their reign. Palpatine OR Vader shouldve been in more control or have a bigger aura of fear surrounding them. It looked like the empire was controlled by humans than the sith. So palps doesnt HAVE to be in the movie, just give us the sith presence we need for it to feel like a SW movie. I dont care how.

    I'm pretty sure he will cover his tracks and the jump from Episode III and ANH regarding Palps won't be as glaring.

    Lets hope. Because as it is now, its completely odd about Tarkin, not necessarily Palpatine.
  4. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    Actually,ANH has aged quite well. When I first saw it 1994 ,it still had FX that were far superior to anything released up until then(Well except for Jurassic Park and T2 but that's a diffterent genre ). I was like wow. I can't believe they could do those kind of FX back then

    Only in the last 6 or so years has it's age really shown. Really it doesn't seem that bad to me. IN fact,.some of the models look more real thann CGI imo.
  5. DarthYosef Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 1
    "Riiiiight... moving right along :D"

    What?
  6. laugh-it-up Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2002
    star 1
    Whoa Prune!!

    you are so far off the mark with this:

    "Theres your reason for the boatload of now uneccesary interior shots when Han and Luke are gunning the tie fighters."

    That is one of the best bits of the film. The dialogue helps generate the excitement, that magical scene of han swinging back and forth chasing the tie is 100% magical. The imagination does the rest. Have you not got a creative imagination?. I would much rather feel the tension in the cockpit, here some tense but good humoured banter than watch a load of exterior shots of yet another ship chase.

    You are SO very very wrong my friend!!. Once again you are sadly missing the magic of the film.
  7. DarthIWasPushed Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2002
    star 1
    OK, here's my theory.

    Has it ever occured to anybody that maybe, just maybe, the stories were written in the following order:

    A New Hope
    The Empire Strikes Back
    Return Of The Jedi
    The Phantom Menace
    Attack Of The Clones

    Lets say for the sake of arguement (because I don't know the actual years) that ANH was written in 1975, TESB in 1978, ROTJ in 1981, TPM in 1996, and AOTC in 2000. Here of some examples of what I am talking about. Hopefully you understand.

    1) Why don't you ever hear about Qui-Gon Jinn in ANH? BECAUSE the character wasn't created until TPM which was written after ANH was written and produced. Make sense?

    2) We don't hear about Emperor Palpatine until TESB because his character wasn't created until after ANH was already made.

    3) We never hear about Jedi apprentices being refered to as Padawans until TPM because the word wasn't created until TPM.

    In short, what I am saying is that the stories for all of the movies were written in the order they were produced. Sure, GL might have had the concept for the story when he first wrote ANH, but he didn't write the actual story until just before the film was to be produced. Therefore, something that was just written in 1996 could not have been included in a movie that was produced in 1977 (unless you have a nifty time travel DeLorean and you went back to 76 to change the scripts and stories). Does anybody else agree with my theory or am I just crazy? ?[face_plain]
  8. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    All: This thread is a consistently engrossing read! Numerous avenues of creative investigation into the plot of Ep. IV, and speculations on credible "what if" scenarios, are being put forth and considered, which in my opinion is a beautiful thing! :) STAR WARS, after all, is a fantasy, and what better way to honor Lucas' vision than by using the faculties of the imagination?

    Way back on page 3, in my rebuttal to PruneF8ce's original post, I fear I may have come across as dogmatic and judgemental. For that I heartily apologize to the host of this thread. Doubtless, the question of ANH's perceived inferiority can be said to come down to a matter of personal taste. Who am I to declare another's aesthetic sensibilities invalid?

    Additionally, PruneF8ce, when I said your name was "unlikely and frankly ridiculous" way back on page 3, I meant it in a bemused, bantery sort of way and not as some cruel insult. I have many times referred to my own "questionable wisdom and ridiculous sense of humor" when it comes to STAR WARS (and other profoundly philisophical) matters. That said, I may not agree with your assertions about the original STAR WARS, but I can read your thoughts and be entertained by them, and for that, I thank you. Many of your ideas of the last 3 pages or so have given me pause, especially your opinion that the "true" scope of the Saga did not reveal itself to its flanneled creator until he had in his hand:
    a) a fully-realized prototype (Ep. IV), and
    b) a fistful of cash with which to realize his most epic cinematic dreams. Thus, as Lucasfilm's resources multiplied, bigger and bigger ideas began to present themselves to Lucas' imagination. So we see a shift in the level of intensity from the original 1977 film, corresponding to an increase in both the quantity and quality of special effects.

    Makes sense, Oh alien humanoid with a wrinkled visage and an inexplicable digit in its name. But in my most humble opinion, none of that--or any of the other complaints you've registered--makes Ep. IV an inferior episode. In fact, I select STAR WARS: A NEW HOPE as the greatest film of all time--the best movie ever made. I do this, not because of tunnel vision--I've considered your points, I truly have--but because I heartily, deeply love and respect this film. As I'm sure we all have, I've analyzed it countless times, enough to justify a fair degree of objectivity. And I still think you're in the minority of fans. ;)
  9. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    By the way, DarthIWasPushed makes some good points about the timetable in which the movies were scripted. It's such an obvious point, really, but it needed to be said. All the same, Pushed seems to agree (as do I) with Prune's theory of an ever-changing STAR WARS galaxy, whose realities shift according to the whims (and special effects budget) of its creator. I'm not putting words in your mouth, am I, Prune?
  10. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    You know, now that I look back over some of the recent posts, I believe Mason said it best:

    "Every problem with ANH comes from the fact that it did so well that GL was able to then proceed to flesh out his vision with more movies. He didn't think ANH would be the hit it was, so he made adjustments to his original story so as to make ANH a self-contained film.

    "Hindsight is always 20-20, and viewing ANH with ESB, RotJ, TPM, and soon AotC as a backdrop, we see some problems with technology, story, and continuity. ...now, when viewed in the context that it was first viewed(1977), ANH is a near perfect movie experience that those who were fortunate enough to see in theaters will never forget."

    Well said, Mase!
  11. DarthIWasPushed Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2002
    star 1
    Good, somebody agreed with me. Now I don't feel so crazy! :)
  12. Isiah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2002
    star 2
    I put this post in a similar topic, but I feel its warranted here as well.

    I'm a film school grad, and not that this gives me any more creedence to my claims or opinions, and aside from all the mentioned social conventions, neo-mythology, technological advancements, I'd have to say that the Battle of Yavin stuff is some of the best tension buliding editing ever. No jump cuts, no slo-mo, just a seemless blend of space battle played off by reactions shots to bring it to a "explosive" climax. I really can't think of any other 20 minutes on film that keep you on the edge of the seat as those do, even 25 years later.

    The DS board room meeting is perfect with NO MUSIC. It is supposed to have a cold and anticeptic mood, until Vader breaks the silence with that bass tone from the Force choke, music would have spoiled this. PruneF8ce obviously doesnt believe in the concept that somtimes "less is more." It's doesn't always have to be slicked over; the DV OB1 duel is pretty minimalist compared to what we've seen in the following films, and it certainly doesn't showcase their Jedi skills, but maybe Lucas is trying to convey that they've become sedentary living in their later years.(as most of us become) At this point they are both shadows of their former selves compared to what they were in the heyday of the Jedi, which makes it all the better when we see the bad asses that Obi and Ani are in the PT. ANH rocks, plain and simple, it changed films for ever.
  13. HendrixFan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    DarthIWasPushed, in the early drafts for Star Wars (well before 77) Lucas had used the word Padawan as a learner and the word Sith for the bad guys.

    Addressing the original topic, I still dont understand why so many people here think that adding to the special effects during certain sequences will hurt the tension of the scene. The reworked Yavin effects for the SE didnt hurt at all. I dont see how a couple minutes of added fighting would change the tension any.
  14. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    I personally don't mind the fx upgrade that the SE's received. All the redone shots in the DS Assault, for example, are outstanding, and in a way, they enhance the experience of the movie.

    It's when the CONTENT is changed that I have a problem with the SE's, and with any proposed "Archival Editions" to come.
  15. El Kabong Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 1999
    star 3
    >>>The DS board room meeting is perfect with NO MUSIC. It is supposed to have a cold and anticeptic mood, until Vader breaks the silence with that bass tone from the Force choke, music would have spoiled this. PruneF8ce obviously doesnt believe in the concept that somtimes "less is more."<<<

    Allow me to direct your attention to the master of suspense, and one of his most chilling movies: The Birds. Hitch went with 'less is more' in terms of music to wonderful end.

    For example - the scene where Tippi Hedren is sitting outside the schoolhouse and jungle gym behind her fills up with more and more and more birds. He manages to draw the tension out to the breaking point - and beyond - like the master craftsman that he is.

    You know what - all this suspense, and not a note of music. Hell, there isnt a note anywhere in the whole film. The moral of this story? That sometimes the lack of music can speak far more than undulating strings ever could.

    As for the rest, I'll say this. You are completly nuts.

    Thank you, I'll be here all week. Try the veal.
  16. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    Prunf8ce:

    Maybe this will ease the Tarkin-pain: Did Darth Maul order the TF army around? No, he was there to see that Sith-objectives were met ("at last we will have revenge") while military strategy was left to the Neimoidians. I think we have a similar situation in ANH: Tarkin is the strategist, will Vader is there for Sith business.

    By the time of TESB, military business has become Sith business (finding Luke), and Vader is the main man on both disciplines.

    I know, that may be a somewhat simplistic vision, but I'm just trying to help, be kind.
  17. trekkie09 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2002
    star 1
    Finally SOME ONE AGRIES IT'S *NOT* PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  18. Snow-Ghost-of-Hoth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    ... RRR ... NEITHER IS STAR TREK YA TREKKIE ...
  19. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    Wait a minute. Star Trek is like 1000X more claustropobic than any SW film to date pal. I feel like im gonna suffocate just watching sometimes. Im sure others like me, without medical conditions ;) feel the same way. Not that I dont watch it, when im bored. :D

    laugh-it-up
    you are so far off the mark with this:
    The dialogue helps generate the excitement, that magical scene of han swinging back and forth chasing the tie is 100% magical. The imagination does the rest. Have you not got a creative imagination?. I would much rather feel the tension in the cockpit, here some tense but good humoured banter than watch a load of exterior shots of yet another ship chase.


    Actually, if it is to fit well with the other movies' overall style, I've bullseyed it. Sure people have said that the strictly interir shots are better, but for better or worse in your opinion, its supposed to fit in with the rest. That quality or anchor (whichever you prefer) is not like the general style of the rest. Thats what counts. See my point? Im not here to judge opinions on this.

    Vortigern99
    Prune's theory of an ever-changing STAR WARS galaxy, whose realities shift according to the whims (and special effects budget) of its creator. I'm not putting words in your mouth, am I, Prune?

    Well I think the creator of this series knows best. SO whatever he feels is necessary to blend in the saga, thats what goes. I too would be shocked and dissapointed to see him cut out a good scene out of ANH or what not if I felt it was unnnecesary. However, if you see the overall motive for the change, and it was absolutely necessary, id deal with it.

    BTW, all of this stuff is just pointing out how I see how ANH will stick out incredibly. I think a lot of this stuff is obvious, but it's GL's POV that matters.

    Way back on page 3, in my rebuttal to PruneF8ce's original post, I fear I may have come across as dogmatic and judgemental. For that I heartily apologize to the host of this thread.

    Accepted :)

    I've considered your points, I truly have--but because I heartily, deeply love and respect this film. As I'm sure we all have, I've analyzed it countless times, enough to justify a fair degree of objectivity. And I still think you're in the minority of fans.

    As an INDIVIDUAL MOVIE, this movie is fantastic, because the other movies wouldnt completely alienate it. But the truth and reality of it is that its a saga, and I believe a version of the movie should be updated so this stigma can dissapear. Notice i said VERSION, because I am aware that the untouched movie is a classic. There should be 2 editions released. The blended in ones, and the untouched ones to please both fans.

    BTW, I kinda just pulled that name outta my *** when looking at Yoda one day. Dont ask me why a digit is in it, cause I cannot tell you, as many other users cannot about certain parts of their names. Its just a petty and non consequential PC name. Its not like its on my birth certificate. lol.

    DarthIWasPushed:
    Therefore, something that was just written in 1996 could not have been included in a movie that was produced in 1977 (unless you have a nifty time travel DeLorean and you went back to 76 to change the scripts and stories). Does anybody else agree with my theory or am I just crazy?

    No your not crazy. That is in fact true, but the point is, it wont feel like the same SW as the other 5 if left as is. Youre forgetting, we have the technology and know how to MAKE this figurative 20 minutes of this HUGE movie blend in. The bulk is for the most part at one place, and ANH is waaaaaaay on the other side of things. See? Ive gone over this point for 6 pages now.

    Isiah
    I'd have to say that the Battle of Yavin stuff is some of the best tension building editing ever. No jump cuts, no slo-mo, just a seemless blend of space battle played off by reactions shots to bring it to a "explosive" climax.

    A seemless blend? Far from it. Most of the time its in the cockpits. Theres a little thing called the wide and in the open s
  20. Dacks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 2
    Good post Prune.

    I think, however, that even after considering your points, more fans would still consider TPM as the "odd one out". I believe that once the PT is finished, it won't really feel like six continuous movies, but will remain two trilogies: PT and OT, each with their own style and characteristics.






    ...and your Vader argument is bad. Just jokes!
  21. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    I think, however, that even after considering your points, more fans would still consider TPM as the "odd one out".

    Yeah I know, cause its just the way it is. No matter if TPM's oddity is supposed to stick out for story arc, and the reason why ANH fits oddly cinematically and with parts of the story structure development is because it just suffered from budget restraints and lack of developed SW ideas. Basically.

    BTW, I think the effects in the OT are perfectly fine. A major problem in TPM is there's TOO many special effects and not enough attention to the storyline.

    Ok then. Thats your opinion. Im sure MANY other people like non SW fans AND SW fans will notice the drop in quality on many aspects (the non SFX problems are mainly in ANH, which has an SFX problem as well when blended) when they watch the whole saga that grand day though. Its unmistakeable. Its just some of the die hard SW fans that are either blind to it (really dont see a problem), or are just fronting. I can see someone not noticing the difference from most of the ESB SE or ROTJ SE space scenes, but ANH!?! That baffles me. Most of that movies most suspenseful scenes are outdated and claustrophobic.

  22. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    Wait a sec. That last quote was from that older topic. Well whaddaya know. :D Still worth a comment though.
  23. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    "There should be 2 editions released. The blended in ones, and the untouched ones to please both fans."

    Now this is an idea I can get behind. Nothing is set in stone, after all, and if the fans could have both versions available (or rather, all THREE), then there would be no room for complaint from any quarter!

    PruneF8ce, what SPECIFIC shots/scenes/sequences would you add to/extract from the film to pull it into line with its sequels and prequels? Apologies if you've already posted this information.
  24. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    "Im NOT pointing out the SLOWNESS as an error. Im pointing out an EDITING MISTAKE AMIDST THE INTENDED SLOWNESS."

    BTW, Prune, I still don't get this. I've watched that duel at least a hundred times. What editing mistake are you specifically referring to?
  25. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    I'm nobody,

    I'm perfect.
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