ANH is not as perfect as many claim it to be (discussion inside)...

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by PruneF8ce, Apr 11, 2002.

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  1. Isiah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2002
    star 2
    Plo-How about "The Sith Rides Again" for Ep III. heh heh.

    Prune- What editing mistake in the DV OB1 duel?
  2. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    PruneF8ce wrote: "ANH because its FAR from the feel of ANY the others in some respects."

    I agree. That's why I am so disappointed in the sequels and the prequels. They are not faithful to the facts and the feel of the original. Check out some major differences:

    In the 1977 SW, the Force is a mystical energy field that Han can doubt when it's being used right in front of his eyes; in the other movies, it is super powers.

    In SW, Kenobi and Vader are all that is left of those who know the Force; in the sequels, we're introduced to Yoda and the Emperor.

    SW is one of the Adventures of Luke Skywalker; the rest of the movies are about the temptation, fall, and redemption of Anakin.

    SW is primarily about an exterior conflict between good and evil; the other movies are primarily about interior conflicts within Anakin and his son.

    It's as though GL decided to make a whole new saga when he started making ESB.
  3. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    what SPECIFIC shots/scenes/sequences would you add to/extract from the film to pull it into line with its sequels and prequels? Apologies if you've already posted this information.

    I have said it many times before, but to recap: As the movies are now, Id...

    1) add more exterior shots of the space battle to the battle of Yavin. The same dialogue unaltered. Cut or redo vader's "What!?" Thats like a goofy "HUH!?!" And Vader just does not say that. Im sorry. Neither does he say a Dr. Evil speech about a day seeing the end of Kenobi and soon seeing the end of the rebellion. Most of the time, the more DEVELOPED vader would keep his private thoughts to himself. The only time he thinks out loud is to lure luke to the dark side in ROTJ. Nothing else. He NEVER would say that. Cut that.

    2) Definitely add many more exterior and mind blowing shots to the Falcon gunner Sequence with Luke and Han. Have chewie maneuver the ship as theyre being chased. We dont need to see a pointless shot of Leia or chewie as their heads move slightly to the side. That could be replaced with more meaningful pressing issues, like Scope of the battle. Exterior shots of the Falcon and ties battling. Afterall, they wouldnt stop at a dead still right in front of the death star like that.

    With spacecraft in general, shots of the ship zooming past the camera helps the reality as well. Take a look at the Nubian as it approaches tatooine in TPM. I believe it had a bigger impact than the ones were given in ANH when the ship leaves the DS (After it officially exits the docking bay).

    With model technology in ANH, some scenes were only able to get side views or the ship standing still, but a screen behind it to simulate motion. Those scenes should be replaced with technology of today. The SE has enhanced this (like the wide and effective shots of the squadron moving past the camera with the red planet behind them), but its a mere fraction of this problem. Also, they cut too quickly to get the out in the open feel. The second we try and feel like were in outer space, were forced back into a cockpit again for god knows how long. You see the Endor battle? Now before they entered the corridor to get to the core, remember panning with that X wing as it raced in between structures on its surface? Remember seeing the fantastic exterior much more often as Lando and Wedge communicated how they were gonna hit the core? Thats how its done people.

    3) More beautiful John Williams music when theres a need, as Ive gone over before. One ive forgot to mention are some of the scenes in the X wing bay that drag on with an unmistakeable absence of "awkward moment remover" (music). When Luke starts talking to Han about staying, that should be silent, but when they lower the droid and Luke talks to Leiah, they should put a subtle piece in there. When all of the pilots ready themselves to take off, give us a heroic number. Not dead silence as some guy takes a nozzle off of the ship! Then, out of nowhere, we get music when Leiah looks at the DS position for the first time. Its like, where the hell were you!?

    BTW, it is much more busy in the X wing hangar at the beginning of ESB than ANYWHERE in ANH. The wide shot of the bussling activity of welding, walking around, riding on lifts etc. We didnt get the scope of it in ANH. It was just silence, and just our heroes riding along awkwardly as there seemed to be like only 1 other person in the room (which we didnt get the scope of really either). Not to mention in ESB when the announcement is made that the "1st transport is away", there is a HUGE bussle of activity and pilots cheering, scattering and what not. In ANH all weve got is subdued compared to this, and its the SAME situation! Claustrophobia all around.

    I mean, go look at the scene in ROTJ where Luke tells Leiah about Vader being his father. Theres a quiet motif playing in the background. Beautiful. And what about the part where Yoda gives Luke the force speech. WOW. That wouldve probably been silent in ANH.

    4) The background control panels
  4. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    Binary_Sunset agrees with PruneF8ce that "ANH is FAR from the feel of ANY the others in some respects."

    Binary continues: "That's why I am so disappointed in the sequels and the prequels. They are not faithful to the facts and the feel of the original."

    An intriguing phenomenon is occurring here. Both fans recognize the differences among the movies, but whereas one person wants the original to be brought into line with its sequels, the other would prefer the sequels to be more like the original. Interesting.

    As for me, I'm with Binary. PruneF8ce can call for revisions to this classic film all he likes--more power to him, says I, for the power of the imagination is a distinguishing quality of human beings--but I'll hold with the original version all the way.
  5. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    1) add more exterior shots of the space battle to the battle of Yavin. The same dialogue unaltered. Cut or redo vader's "What!?" Thats like a goofy "HUH!?!" And Vader just does not say that. Im sorry. Neither does he say a Dr. Evil speech about a day seeing the end of Kenobi and soon seeing the end of the rebellion. Most of the time, the more DEVELOPED vader would keep his private thoughts to himself. The only time he thinks out loud is to lure luke to the dark side in ROTJ. Nothing else. He NEVER would say that. Cut that.

    Yes, he would say that, and does say that. How do I know? I saw him say it.
  6. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Don't you mean you HEARD him say it? [face_laugh]

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
  7. Darth_Tim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 4
    PruneF8ce wrote: "ANH because its FAR from the feel of ANY the others in some respects."

    I agree. That's why I am so disappointed in the sequels and the prequels. They are not faithful to the facts and the feel of the original. >>

    While others would say the opposite. Of course, the only person who knows what is "faithful" to SW is GL. I'm not going to presume that I know his creation better than he. ANH had inherent compromises because it was written as a stand-alone film, while the others did not have that limitation.

    In the 1977 SW, the Force is a mystical energy field that Han can doubt when it's being used right in front of his eyes; in the other movies, it is super powers. >>

    Huh? Vader in ANH "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant..." What about Luke's using the Force to destroy the Death Star?

    Super powers? In what sense?

    <<In SW, Kenobi and Vader are all that is left of those who know the Force; in the sequels, we're introduced to Yoda and the Emperor. >>

    We need Yoda, because who is going to train Luke after Ben is gone?

    What's wrong with showing the head of this evil Empire?

    SW is one of the Adventures of Luke Skywalker; the rest of the movies are about the temptation, fall, and redemption of Anakin. >>

    Redemption via Luke, that is.

    What's wrong with focusing on Anakin?



    SW is primarily about an exterior conflict between good and evil; the other movies are primarily about interior conflicts within Anakin and his son. >>

    Again, why does that make ANH superior? Is internal conflict inferior to external for some inherent reason?

    I resent this attitude among some on this thread of looking down on younger fans just because we weren't around when ANH came out.

    So?? Does the "misfortune" of being born at a later date make one less of a SW fan? Is a film (SW or otherwise) automatically somehow accorded sacred status, beyond reproach, just because one saw it when it originally came out?

    Why this pervasive pessimism that things only get worse, that the first film in a series is always the best, etc?

    I see many attacks on Pruneface, but little in the way of substantive answers to what I think, in a few cases, are valid points:

    Again-in Ep 3 we will see Anakin become apprentice to the absolute ruler of the Galaxy. Then we get to ANH, and what is he, this awesome warrior and powerful Sith who helped exterminate the once-thought invincible Jedi?

    A freakin' glorified fighter squadron commander!!

    HUH??

    Palpy, the guy behind this Empire which is now at it's peak in ANH, and he's not even in the film??

    Why are epic space battles with huge numbers of ships out of place in a film as epic in nature as SW?? One of the reasons I liked ROTJ was because of the awesome space battle and the Rebel/Imperial capital ships.

    -Tim



  8. eclipseSD Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2002
    star 5
    Star Wars Episode IV is rated as the fifteenth greatest movie ever made by AMI, so take that as you will.

    In my opinion, it is as perfect as a movie can get.
  9. guittarjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 4
    Prunef8ce,you are obviously very young and clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
  10. DarthBane93 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    While ESB is MY fav of all the SW films, ANH is the "best movie" hands down. The magic is there, the chemistry is there, the sense of adventure is there...I could go on forever.

    There are no plot holes. And I dont know why anyone hates the Battle of Yavin. Its perfect and is by far the best space battle in motion picture history. Period. Pure magic and its so damn good. I have never felt more intensity in a situation than when Luke is in the Death Star trench and his wingman gets blown away and Wedge leaves. Listen to the music!!! You get soooo swept away! Then when Luke listens to Ben and turns off the targeting computer!! Geez!! Awesome! And ANH has the best ending to a SW movie ever! Medal ceremony was great!

    I dont know how people complain about this timeless classic.
  11. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    One of the reasons ANH works for me is because Harrison Ford is so damn cool!
  12. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    Prune, I give you credit for posting this. It's not the most popular opinion, but one certainly worth discussing.

    IMO, ANH is the least polished of all the films, from a visual and musical standpoint. The music is moer crude, less versatile and more redundant in ANH than any other film. The lightsaber battle is woefully inadequate compared to the battles in other films.

    Of course, it's only fair to mention that Lucas had a far less budget and technology to work with on this movie than any others. You have to give him that. There's also no denying this film's incredible impact on pop culture and movies in general. For that alone, it should more than make up for any deficiencies it has.

    Graded on a curve, ANH stands tall with anything ever filmed. But as part of the six-film saga, it could definitely use a slightly bigger role for Palpatine, to provide a smoother continuity with the other five. He's too important a character not to be in there. Although ANH is my least favorite among the SW movies, I still like it better than any non-SW movie ever made! :)
  13. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    I would never call any movie "perfect". But as far as an action/sci-fi epic goes...ANH is very close. There's a few minor technical errors and a few "corny" spots, but EVERY movie has these if you look for them. ANH is still my favorite SW film.

    I find it odd that when there are threads like: "Rank you favorite SW films" ANH always seems to rank 2nd to last just ahead of TPM, with, what I assume to be "younger" SW fans. Of course, without ANH, and it's gigantic unexpected success, there wouldn't be a SW "series"! :D
  14. Obi-Wan2001 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 4
    I agree with you, ferelwookie, and it also baffles me that a lot of people around here have ANH at the bottom of their lists with TPM.
  15. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Without The Beatles, pop culture would not be what it is today. Does that make them the best band in history?
  16. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    But as part of the six-film saga, it could definitely use a slightly bigger role for Palpatine, to provide a smoother continuity with the other five. He's too important a character not to be in there.

    You don't understand what continuity means. The mere absence of a character for a chapter of this story is not a break in continuity. His role is the same: Palpatine rules the galaxy. Episode IV has no place for him, there is nothing for him to do. Putting him in now would simply follow backwards logic. Whereas it should be "Palpatine is doing this in this part of the story, therefore we must show it," including him in Episode IV would be "Palpy must be in every episode. Therefore he needs a scene here." If in Episode IV someone had said there was no Emperor, or, in reference to his background, had referred back to when he was Senator Cos Dashit, not Palpatine, then that would be a continuity error. The mere fact that he doesn't appear in one out of six episodes is not a break in continuity.

    If ANH has one continuity problem, it's that Vader is never identified as the former Anakin Skywalker. But no one has suggested that that information be revealed in ANH; they'd rather the prequels kept their mouth shut so that ESB is still a surprise.
  17. Ben-Obi-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 1999
    star 3
    PruneF8ce
    u better go to a ST forum or what
    ANH = Perfect
  18. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>Without The Beatles, pop culture would not be what it is today. Does that make them the best band in history?

    No!
    8-}
  19. guittarjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 4
    Obi-Ewan I agree, we get alot of backwards logic on these boards.
  20. Icebreaker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 4
    [color=336699] [face_shocked]
    Anyone that doesnt like the original Star Wars should NOT be posting here...Im sorry...I have no real problem with prequel bashers or even ROTJ bashers but when someone bashes ANH there is hell to pay
    :mad:



    ~ICeBReaKeR[/color]
    He has never been cooler...
  21. Dogo_the_Mad_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    I have a couple problems...mostly with the fact that prunef8ce seems to think he knows what DV would and would not say. Second, as to being able to update films, I am deeply appalled they do not add color to all black and white films. I want to see the color of the maltese falcon dammit! I say leave all the old films the way they are. I don't want it changed to the point where the movie's feel is changed dramatically. As for saying ANH is not magical, I saw it in the nineties as a kid and I sure as hell thought it was magical. I think we are just spoiled today with SFX. Some movies are good the way they are. Classics mostly, and I feel like ANH is a classic.
  22. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    I meant continuity in more of a visual sense than from a story-telling standpoint. It seems as if Tarkin kind of fills the Emperor-type of role in ANH. A powerful figure with the Empire who can make grand decisions. While it's true he doesn't have as active of a role in the GFFA by ANH, his absence is still quite noticeable, given he at least had cameos in TPM and AOTC. I'm not saying it makes ANH a bad film, I'm pretty much nit-picking here.

    Any thoughts as to another key character's absence in ANH: Yoda. Would you guys think the reason he's not in ANH would be the same as Palpatine? That he's lurking in the background, and the story's focus is shifting to Luke? That would make sense, but I'd like to hear other opinions as well.

    Keep in mind, I am saying all this from the point of view of looking at all 6 movies from start to finish. We obviously don't know everything about Ep3, but there are certain things that have to happen. Thoughts? Flames?
  23. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>Any thoughts as to another key character's absence in ANH: Yoda. Would you guys think the reason he's not in ANH would be the same as Palpatine? That he's lurking in the background, and the story's focus is shifting to Luke? That would make sense, but I'd like to hear other opinions as well.

    Maybe it's assumed he died in (or shortly after) Episode III?

    Unlikely, I think, but possible...
  24. jedi-casango-wango Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    Anh is good and almost perfect but its no empire strikes back(just had to say that for the record)
  25. Matthew Trias Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    1) add more exterior shots of the space battle to the battle of Yavin. The same dialogue unaltered. Cut or redo vader's "What!?" Thats like a goofy "HUH!?!" And Vader just does not say that. Im sorry. Neither does he say a Dr. Evil speech about a day seeing the end of Kenobi and soon seeing the end of the rebellion. Most of the time, the more DEVELOPED vader would keep his private thoughts to himself.

    Oh,shut up.
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