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JCC [animal sex megathread] bonobos like to ****

Discussion in 'Community' started by Rogue_Ten, May 29, 2014.

  1. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    oh i do. which is why i didnt emphasize the decreased violence element. however, everything ive seen from other primatologists, in articles and in my human evolution textbook, about bonobos has corroborated the conclusion that bonobos are markedly less violent than other great apes. for instance, common chimpanzees, (the closest relative to bonobos) are highly territorial and tend to murder and cannibalize males who enter their space and are not a part of their band. none of this behaviour or territoriality is present among bonobos. now, whether this has anything to do with the fact that bonobos get laid a ton more than chimpanzees is open to interpretation, but i think it certainly merits the ongoing study and attention it has recieved
     
  2. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

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    Mar 12, 2005
    Thread title reminded me of this commercial...

     
  3. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    semi-nonsequitur, i believe it was jane goodall herself who described orangutans as the rapeyiest creatures in the animal kingdom. she put it more elegantly than that, but the gist was that while "consent" is a sticky topic when you're dealing with animal sexual relations generally, the specific physicality and sounds generated when a male orangutan forces himself on a female was too much for her to watch, moreso than other great apes.

    they also keep harems where the biggest male in the group gets to **** and the other males get cast out/become serial rapists of the big male's harem. its essentially how MRAs and PUAs view human sexual politics but its actually real in this case.

    there should be a fedora-wearing orangutan meme. why isnt there a fedora-wearing orangutan meme?

    imho, bonobo sex practices - good. orangutan sex practices - bad
     
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  4. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    JW if you want to uncover the truth about bonobo behavior in the wild, you're going to have to hurry and get it done before their natural habitat is completely fragmented/gone.
     
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  5. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    Well, this is where I think the earlier part of our discussion becomes relevant. In the first place, the major patterns of bonobo violence that have been elucidated aren't in captivity so much sa in the wild, which gets directly at my original concern with de Waal. While field observation could counter-balance this, there's simply not a lot of information yet. They are an elusive species, there aren't a terribly great number of them, and the number of long term researchers is also relatively few. Consider, for instance, that Goodall started her pretty continuous chimpanzee observations at Gombe in 1960. It wasn't until the mid-70s that we began to get a glimpse of chimpanzee "warfare." It's a pretty huge behavioral element that we missed entirely for a long time, despite leaning almost entirely on data from wild populations. I think we position ourselves to make errors of an even greater magnitude by leaning so heavily on captive specimens. All the questions you raise are absolutely worthy of more study, but we've been at this far too shortly to pretend that things we aren't seeing must not be there.
     
  6. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    i think its perfectly reasonable to make observations based on the best available data while research is continuing. its not like anyone's making major policy decisions based entirely off this

    if data comes up in the future that somehow turns all this on its head, well then future primatology textbooks will have a footnote about how "the era of bonobo scholarship from the 80s to the mids 2010s was marked by flawed scholarship positing bonobos as a largely docile, non-territorial species until 2014 when the anthropologist rogue ten --observing them in their natural conditions in order to win an arguement on the internet despite having been trained in cultural anthropology-- was raped to death and eaten by a band of wild bonobos"
     
  7. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    I think this really obscures what's happening. de Waal regularly argues in absolute terms that bonobos do not engage in certain behaviors. He isn't just reporting his findings, but aggressively generalizing with them in a way that I find irresponsible. It seems to me he would be very much pleased if he could convince people to "make major policy decisions based entirely off this."

    EDIT: Also, as I stated from the outset, I am not concerned with what appears in primatology text books. Anyone reading one should know how to examine the evidence critically and properly contextualize the work of all different researchers, de Waal included. I am concerned about his effects as a popular science writer, where people aren't similarly prepared. By way of comparison, there's nothing wrong with letting a neo-conservative like John Bolton have a place in foreign policy/international relations academia. There would be everything in the world wrong with letting his voice drown out all other perspectives in the public's understanding of the same questions.
     
  8. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    Wocky, this isn't a case of Michio Kaku writing about warp drives. de Waal was presented to me in a classroom setting and his ideas were not presented as controversial as you're making them out to be. I don't see anything wrong, given that, with those ideas being presented to the general public.
     
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  9. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    to be fair anyone who becomes known as a "leading" member of their field based off a mainstream (non-academic) book-deal is pretty much asking to have everyone in their field hate them :p
     
  10. Darth Morella

    Darth Morella Force Ghost star 6

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    Apr 5, 2004
    I am not very familiar with orangutan sex but ducks are also pretty rape-y, and the males and females have evolved (and keep evolving) mechanisms of countering each other's attempts at controlling fertilization. I attended a talk by Dr. Brennan last year and it was quite fascinating. A little bit disturbing, but still, fascinating.
     
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  11. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    I really hope this is the plot of Planet of the Apes Number 3
     
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  12. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
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  13. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002

    that would be a dark turn
     
  14. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    Well, I'm imagining it like this. We are living peacefully in a human-chimp society, as all decent men ought. However, lustful and idealistic, you are drawn away by legends of a bonobo enclave in the forbidden zone. Against warnings, you strike out on your own to make it there. You find it, and at first it seems the idealistic society you were promised. Only during the spring festival does the full horror of their murderous hearts dawn on you. In the exciting climax, you come to the beach of the forbidden zone, where you see the burned out remains of a giant Wicker Man, and realize that Bruce Willis--the last human reputed to have join them, and whom you were seeking the whole film--was dead the whole time. Overwhelmed by your impending fate, you collapse onto your knees, anguished in the sand, and cry "You maniacs! Wocky was right all along!"
     
  15. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    i hate you
     
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  16. EmpireForever

    EmpireForever Force Ghost star 8

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    Mar 15, 2004
    This is turning into the worst fan fiction ever.
     
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  17. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    If that ending is too bleak for you all, we can also have a part where you save yourself on the beach by learning that apes have a fatal weakness to water.
     
  18. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001

    Otters. Otters are the most rapey of all.

    Wocky, does the frank discussion of bonobo coitus make you uncomfortable?

    If you were in a room in which upwards of a dozen couples were engaging in primal coitus, what would you do? Die of embarrassment or convince them to hide their shame with this convenient his and hers fig leaf set you just happened to be carrying?
     
  19. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    I posted this in another thread, a lovely excerpt from Svante Pääbo's book on the Neanderthal genome,

    so...bonobo scrotum size as indirect evidence that the observations about bonobo sexual behavior are accurate in that they are likely evolved for promiscuity.
     
  20. amidalachick

    amidalachick FFoF Hostess Extraordinaire star 5 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 3, 2003
  21. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    he got way too excited crafting this sentence
     
  22. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 19, 1999
    It's not the best-written book I've read, but it may also have been translated from Swedish.
     
  23. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    lol yeah swedes
     
  24. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Too bad they already used the title Rise of the Planet of the Apes.
     
  25. Six

    Six Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 9, 2014
    Climax of the Planet of the Apes