Animated Draft 3rd Impact: All of You, Draft Like You Want to Win! -- Winner: Shurron

Discussion in 'Archive: Census and Games' started by BartSimpson-SithLord, Nov 8, 2008.

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  1. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    Agree, but much more enthusiastically and I don't think they need to go. And you know I love gettin people off the list
  2. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    [face_plain]

    Okay, I'm sorry I didn't post my argument right away after I got back (been super busy at work, plus I've had a few other things going on), but... seeing as how I very clearly stated that I would like to make an argument, and that on many, many (MANY) occasions in this draft, matches have gone weeks without a judgment being posted (and that's with no one even indicating that they have any intention of arguing their matches), I thought I had a little more leeway than this.

    TLI... dude, what does any of this even mean?

    That having been said, until that glorious day arrives, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, for reasons stated for this match above and in all previous matches in which she participated, and having to rely on secondhand impressions and likely misleading video evidence, I must cast my vote in favor of Buttercup. Bleh.

    I'm sorry, but there is no reasonable explanation for your vote here. None. I may disagree quite heavily with the explanation Yak's given (as I often do), and I plan on proving him very, very wrong here shortly, but at least he gave me something to work with.

    Dude, you've been judging this entire draft, and I can safely say that I have no freakin' clue as to what it is you value in a pick. You don't respond to arguments (if you do, you do it very sparingly and I don't remember any specific time you've done it), you don't... you don't really say anything here outside of your judgments.

    What shows have you seen or not seen? Which characters can I somewhat safely assume you're already familiar with, so that I don't have to waste my time with massive, essay-length arguments if I don't have to? Just for ****s and giggles, what shows and/or characters do you like or dislike? I know none of these things. I don't think anybody here does.

    I mean, you wrote the following in an early breakdown:

    Itachi, Ulquiorra, and Xellos? There goes the draft...you'll be near unstoppable if you manage to grab another guy or two I'm thinking of.

    While I definitely think that was some hyperbole, that at least made me think that you thought pretty highly of Itachi and were familiar with his abilities and how they worked. But come match time, any matchup that Itachi gets in which it's not painfully obvious that he wins, you vote against him. There was that Gundam matchup, the Ichigo matchup and now this (and there may have been another one I can't quite recall). And... whatever. If you think he loses, that's fine. That's not the problem I have. But at the very least, I know I made an extensive argument on that Ichigo matchup. Obviously I was looking to get a flop, but I didn't even get a respone of any kind. Did you agree with any portion of that argument? Did you think it was all crap? I don't know because you never gave any feedback whatsoever. If you disagreed with every single thing I said... well, at least I'd be getting something from you.

    It's the same thing with the more recent Lina/Rei match (among others). I didn't argue because I'd thought those things about Lina had already been well established. I was wrong. I didn't end up needing you to revise your vote, but still, a response would've been nice. Just some kind of acknowledgment, even if it was you just saying that you were sticking to your vote for such-and-such reasons.

    So, whatever. Even if I've already lost that match, even if everything I say gets comepletely ignored, I'm still going to argue it tomorrow. Because there's no way, no freakin' way that Buttercup should beat Itachi. I have the day off, so I should have plenty of time to do it right.
  3. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    *slinks in*
    Because there's no way, no freakin' way that Buttercup should beat Itachi

    I disagree with that because if you had her you'd argue her over anyone (including the present match) even if it was an open/closed match against and you'd probably win too. I can appreciate and understand your position here Durron but you don't have to lie to me about it, there is only so much wool I will let be pulled over these eyes anymore.

    *waits for this essay length post proving YAK wrong, slinks back out *
  4. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    Does anyone else feel physically in danger when Durron promises one of these things? COME ON BASSIL POST NEW BATTLES NOW
  5. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    You tell him, Chimney.

    We're not going to be your sheeple anymore, Shirley.
  6. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    Yeesh. That was close. I almost launched into yet another rant about how absoluetly none of that is true, but no. I'm completely and utterly done defending myself from that kind of nonsense. If you wanna keep on thinking that, Chimberly, well, more power to ya.

    Anyways, I'm just gathering up the relevant clips, and yippie-skippie! I thought I was only going to be able to find video evidence for one or two instances, but I managed to find several more, and I'm not even done looking yet.

    Does anyone else feel physically in danger when Durron promises one of these things?

    Hey man, I feel the same way when you burn. That's more than just words. That's fire! Fire is scary.

    Huh? Oh, you were just being sarcastic.... Well I wasn't! Fire is scary!
  7. BartSimpson-SithLord Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2002
    star 5
    PLAYOFFS! CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIPS!

    NHK Conference
    Location: Endsville (The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy)

    "We Kill Everything We See" (4) vs. Murdertrain a Comin' (4)


    Cartoon Network Conference
    Location: Briggs Fortress (Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood)

    AH-HA-HA! AH-HA-HA! AH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! (3) vs. Special Duty Combat Unit Shinesman (5)


    We edge close to the final with NINE!

    NHK Conference
    Location: Endsville (The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy)

    Nnoitra (Bleach) vs. Kagato (Tenchi)(PREPARED)


    Cartoon Network Conference
    Location: Briggs Fortress (Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood)

    Rau Le Creuset / ZGMF-X13A Providence (Mobile Suit Gundam SEED) vs. Arika Yumemiya (Mai-Otome)/>

  8. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    Nnoitra's the hard-shelled one right? First instinct is Kagato, I think he's got the goods with prep. And after actually finishing SEED, Rau isn't that nice, I got Yumemiya
  9. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, so much for having all day free yesterday. And I'm definitely not going to have much time today. Le sigh.

    **** it. Whatever.
  10. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    Ah-ha-ha to you, sir. Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha.

    Good day.
  11. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    Yeah, these don't seem so difficult: agree. To elaborate, for Durron's sake, in the first match, Kagato seems to have the edge in variety of abilities, offense, and defense. Nnoitra has a tough shell to crack, but is a pretty straightforward attacker and limited in approach, which doesn't offer much of an advantage when the opponent is already prepared for you. Arika's firepower and agility should be able to let her take on Rau in the second one without being at too much risk.

    More coming as a response to the earlier post later.

    Disclaimer: mostly unrelated to everyone else.

    As for Buttercup, that judgment was mostly (see: wholly) intended in a humorous manner, as I believe I've made clear in the past my extraordinary dislike for her and her kind and the unwilling nature of my voting in their favor. Never having seen her show (and honestly not really desiring to), everything I have on her is secondhand information or videos highlighting her best moments. I'm fairly sure she not that good, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I can only rely on these accounts or exceptional feats, and as such am unable to vote against her and her ilk with any degree of certainty in many case. I dislike it, and would like nothing more than to be able to see them get busted as valued picks, but it's impossible for me unless a very compelling case can be made.

    Secondly, there's no magic ingredient that I value in a pick (though speed is always an absolutely vital consideration), and I make no attempt to judge solely on my own experiences with series or to ensure some kind of image of consistency. I take each match on a case-by-case basis, judging by what evidence I can compile from every available source and constantly reevaluating every single pick. Just because someone is regarded as good pick, doesn't mean I automatically take that claim at face value. I research, again and again, every single time they come up for a new match. More than anything, I attempt to evaluate with equal consideration and fairness for both picks, regardless of how supreme one side's power may be considered or how terrible the other side is viewed. I don't just look for how one side beats the other, but for every way that either could possibly lose to the other, or could beat the other.

    Now, as for responses, I've been rather busy for...let's say the past six months or so. By the time I get a chance to sit down and see an argument, the next match is usually already up or you've already gone way past the reasonable point of response. I'm thankfully quite free from that now, which is why I'm able to respond in depth as I am now. I do apologize for the lack of responses, but in most cases, I honestly didn't get a chance to do so when it would've been relevant. If it helps any, I have no plans to judge the next draft: I'd originally planned to play in this one, which got somewhat derailed. I intend to rectify this next draft, and participate only as a GM.

    If I missed anything: oops./>
  12. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    Well, cool. Thanks, dude.

    I certainly understand busy, that's for sure. Basically, I really wasn't expecting any kind of essay-like respone to my essay-like arguments. I don't expect that from any judge. Actually, most times I do that, I end up thinking of a bunch of different ways I could've condensed it all down and made it much more brief. Well after the fact, though. But yeah, just, you know, something in the way of an acknowledgment.

    As to the PPGs: The last thing I want to suggest is that they suck. They really, really don't. Yes, they have a lot of low showings (actually, the whole show can be unbelievably inconsistent in regards to thier powers), but their higher showings put them right up there among the best characters in the draft in terms of strength, speed and durability. And with me, unless the ratio of low showings to high showings just comepletely skews towards the low end, the higher showings will always mean more. And (I guess I am going to defend myself a bit after all) I stand by every single thing I said about how good the PPGs were during the previous two drafts, but aside from way back in the first draft, I would not ever vote for one of them over Itachi. But that was because I had not seen any Naruto yet, and I really didn't have any clue of what he could do. And I said as much at the start of the draft. I really didn't know a whole lot about most of the characters on the list at the time, and I'm sure if I looked back at it, I'd see dozens and dozens of judgments I'd go a different way on now.

    Anyways, thing is, when it comes to Itachi, with no more than an instant of eye contact, all their strength, speed and durability will become absolutely meaningless. So, okay, even if it ends up being waaaaay after the fact, I'll get that whole argument up when I can. Basically, Itachi will get that moment of eye contact (and then some, in all likelihood). That is, if you actually judge Buttercup in character. Because they don't just speedblitz their opponents without first taking at least a second or two to size them up and/or making some sort of comment along the lines of "You're in trouble now!" or somesuch. And I found about a dozen examples of this just in the episodes that I could currently find online, to say nothing of all the other times I know they've done it in episodes that aren't available online right now.

    But for now, off to work.
  13. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    I dislike it, and would like nothing more than to be able to see them get busted as valued picks, but it's impossible for me unless a very compelling case can be made.

    I am curious as to why this is the case. Just not caring about the show? I certainly don't care about Bleach or Naruto, but I don't actively want to see their value go down.

    The fact is, they are valuable picks. No one, I think, is arguing that. I believe Shirley is just arguing that, in this case, the person he chose over them is more valuable--probably overall, in his opinion, but specifically because, as far as I think anyone is aware, they don't really have a defense against mental attacks, or illusions, which I believe is something of Itachi's specialty.

    He certainly cannot argue that anyone is faster than they are capable of going, but it can be argued that they don't always go that fast. And sometimes they can take a beating and sometimes they can't take as much as a beating, but I don't really think he's specifically trying to impugn on the girls' other abilities so much as their inability to withstand something like tsukuyomi, or susanoo, although I'm sure he could if he wanted, it certainly wouldn't be in very good sport, considering Blossom's tenure under his management, and how much arguing he did in favor of her. However, he's certainly welcome to, as there is some evidence out there that suggests that their high end feats are not entirely consistent--although I think it can be argued that the low showings are the inconsistencies, but you're bound to have those either way when you have a show that uses several different writers.

    They're valuable, but they're not without flaws. Itachi is a nice one hit kill guy, and if anyone should be up for debate on whether or not they should go or stay, it should be him. He doesn't fight much, has an instant killquick, and has theoretical power the upper limits of which he's never shown. All good reasons not to have someone on the list, but that can be discussed after.
  14. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    Less that I don't care about it, more that I actively dislike it. To me, they're pretty far from being reasonable entries into a draft. I just find the nature of the show just too absurd for a competition where getting an accurate measure and comparison of various power levels is vital to making good judgments.
  15. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    I(and by I I mean Yak, logged in on Kalar's bro's computer) don't really see what the whole big deal is with getting either of these guys out of the draft. I mean I see it, I just disagree. If anyone should go, off the top of my head, it's Legato. He can insta-kill a good deal of people at once. Itachi can only do it one at a time. And he has other attacks which basically guarantees he won't be doing his insta-kill all the dang time. I don't actually recall him starting off a battle with it, and it does take him awhile to use it and it's not like he says nothing before a battle, even if it's barely anything. And he's not even much of a violence-liker, I doubt he just immediately pulls out a tsukiyomi as soon as someone yells "fight." If he did that, yeah he'd probably win.

    One question I did want to know, and I don't know if this has been explained or not, is if people keep their normal durability in tsukiyomi. Obviously with Kakashi and those guys, it's not hard to hurt them. Some other people, like Buttercup, even if she was floating and unable to move, would he still have to hurt her?

    I'd assume he could hurt her, but just a question.
  16. captain-fantastic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 4
    I thought Itachi started off the Kakashi battle with it, and he certainly started off the Sasuke battle by having him in a genjutsu. It really isn't that far fetched to say that Itachi could start most battles off with it, if he determined that it would be effective.
  17. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    No, not on Kakashi.

    Again, I don't think his odds of getting her in Tsukiyomi are better than her odds of beating him outright from pretty near the start. Although from this fight, I'd say it's closer. Even debatable.
  18. BartSimpson-SithLord Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2002
    star 5
    PLAYOFFS! CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIPS!

    NHK Conference
    Location: Endsville (The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy)

    "We Kill Everything We See" (4) vs. Murdertrain a Comin' (5)


    Cartoon Network Conference
    Location: Briggs Fortress (Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood)

    AH-HA-HA! AH-HA-HA! AH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! (3) vs. Special Duty Combat Unit Shinesman (6)


    Will THREE provide two victors, or one Team battle?

    NHK Conference
    Location: Endsville (The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy)

    Haman Karn / AMX-004 Qubeley (Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam) vs. Legato Bluesummers (Trigun)(PREPARED)


    Cartoon Network Conference
    Location: Briggs Fortress (Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood)

    Grimmjow (Bleach) vs. Blossom (Powerpuff Girls)/>

  19. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    Two victors. Haman don't know nothin bout no TK. Yeah. He is probably the one that should be gone.
  20. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    Who do I need to pay off to vote for Haman here?
  21. BartSimpson-SithLord Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2002
    star 5
    Newtypes don't know anything about TK? Seriously?

    Newtypes whose main weapons are there non-attached to their suits bits? Newtypes who have, on more than one occasion, pulled pieces of their suits back together even when they'd run out of power. Sure she isn't Judau level in raw talent, but she's just under that tier. Newtypes are a bit more supernatural in their design than coordinators in SEED are.
  22. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    Say no to Legato.

    we want Haman. Ra! ha! Ha-manKarn!
  23. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    Aren't those suits built for newtypes? As in, don't they have a special bond with their pilots that would enable the pilot to, say, manipulate the suit or use it to increase their own power?

    Power that still, even with the suit, pales in comparison to Legato's, to be honest. Mind-controlling a whole city for, well, days on end, using TK at the same time, with no apparent effort...

    I think this would be pretty little effort for Legato here. I don't see her winning a battle of minds or TK with him, not even competing really. At all. And he can do a battle of the minds and TK at the same time, without trying. Yeah, I got Legato.

    I am waiting for someone to post something about a mountain or a K2. That's what I'm waiting for. Come on, who wanna climb a K2!!!
  24. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
  25. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    Well I certainly didn't think I'd have the time to do this today, but my buddy's little 4th of July party got pushed back a few hours, so I have some free time here.

    So... yeah...

    Okay, the one thing that really struck me as being way off in Yakkers' explanation was this:

    I just think she'd attack before Itachi, hit him, and probably kill him.

    First off, when has Buttercup (or any of the girls, for that matter) ever killed a human being? Have they hit normal human beings such as bank robbers and whanot on many occasions? Yep. Have any of their hits ever resulted in the death of a person? Nope. They pummel those poor sons of b's pretty damn good, but they're not killers. They are able to exercise some control over their strength, obviously.

    Secondly, you're acting as though characters from Naruto can't take a hit. Is their average durability tops in the draft? Nope. Can Itachi take hits like, say, Luffy can? HELL no. But assuming B-cup does charge first and manage to hit him, is Itachi going to be completely incapacitated just from that? Well... no, I really don't think so. Especially since the girls do not hit normal human beings (which is exactly what Itachi appears to be) hard enough to kill them. Even pre-timeskip Sasuke was taking some really, really nasty hits in his fight against Naruto, and he was able to shurg most of them off pretty easily.

    Here, check some of them out. (sorry about it being a damned music video). The one he takes right after the 1:00 mark is really brutal, and yet just seconds later, he busting out a counter attack. Itachi is at least that durable. The hit Sasuke later takes that catches him right in the mush (which I could watch all day) does put him down for a little while, but once he recovers from it, the swipe he takes right after that is equally as nasty, but he recovers extremely quickly and is perfectly fine.

    Anyways, I don't think he even will take a hit in this match, but if it happens, I highly doubt that's the end of the match right then and there.

    Alrighty, Yakattack, the single biggest flaw (I think) in your reasoning for this match is that you seem to think that the only way Itachi can possibly win is if he busts out the Tsukuyomi right away. And that's just not the case. Is Tsukuyomi going to be the likely conclusion to this match? I sure think so, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen right away. You're right in that him going straight to that technique is not at all likely to happen. What is a much, much, MUCH more likely scenario is that he opens the match with just a standard, run-of-the-mill genjutsu. And when I say run-of-the-mill, it's kinda misleading, because even those non-mangekyo genjutsus of Itachi's are still extremely powerful techniques. And... B-cup has absolutely no way to counter them.

    Are any of those standard genjutsu's capable of dealing a knockout blow to a PPG? Not really. But that doesn't mean they're useless. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Here, I'll give you some examples of why that is.

    That fight you just posted, Itachi's first on-screen fight? Well, that was the only time he fought someone and a genjutsu wasn't the very first thing he used. Ever other fight he's ever been shown in, genjutsu comes first. That's how he ends fights quickly and effciently. For instance, Itachi vs. Kakashi, Naruto, Sakura and Chiyo. Once the fight actually starts, he opens with a genjutsu on Naruto.

    Of course, I know what you're gonna say. That's part two, right? They spend almost nine minutes prior to that either talking or staring eachother down. Surely he doesn't have nine minutes before B-cup charges him, right? Except, Itachi's entire goal was to stall them as long as possible, and that was a four-on-one situation, and Itachi was only fighting at 30% power. He had to be much more cautious in that fight than he norma
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