Discussion in 'Archive: Census and Games' started by BartSimpson-SithLord, Nov 8, 2008.
It's just a game, dude.
I gleefully skipped that all.
Stay strong, Yak.
And what's this voting for Legato business? That's silly. How's he going to mind control a Gundam? that's what I'd like to know.
Yeah, I know it's just a game. Why do you think it took me days to actually get all that out? You think I'm gonna type something like that out when I have anything at all better to do with my time? And, hey, you're one to talk.
And you suck, Yak. Booooo.
Why do you think it took me days to actually get all that out?
Well, it is very long; I just assumed it took you days to write it.
That's what she said?
I wouldn't know.
Yall are ridiculous. Am I invited to the wedding?
Haman Karn / AMX-004 Qubeley (Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam) vs. Legato Bluesummers (Trigun)(PREPARED)
Yeah, Legato bordering on my list of guys to go, too. Mostly because mind control is tough to judge against if you're not dealing with psychic-experienced combatants on both sides. Wouldn't be such a problem if they'd stuck to wires, but...ah, well. Doesn't matter now. If he weren't prepared, it'd probably be simple enough for him to lose this. Were Haman prepared, it's not unlikely he'd still lose. I'm not really convinced, though, that Haman will be able to fight off a surprise mental attack from someone she has no reason to think would possess such an ability. Even if she is able to put up a good resistance for a time, I don't know if she'll be able to operate the Qubeley enough to win this while doing so. If there's evidence for Haman fighting and winning similar mind battles that I haven't found evidence of yet, I'll gladly reconsider, but until then my vote goes to Legato.
Grimmjow (Bleach) vs. Blossom (Powerpuff Girls)
First off, thanks go to Durron for the argument. Given that Youtube turns up 5,150 results for "powerpuff" alone, finding their lesser showings is complicated when you don't know exactly what you're looking for. Now, putting that aside, on to the current match itself. Grimmjow is an extremely tough opponent, even in his unreleased state. As far as the Espada go, he's actually surprisingly well-rounded in abilities. Even looking at Blossom's usual combat level speed, he still seems to have an edge. Blossom can pull out more strength when the plot seems to demand it, but in terms of average damage packed into each attack, Grimmjow comes out ahead. Blossom's endurance is, of course, absolutely ludicrous, but Grimmjow still manages to pull off DesgarrÃ³n after getting hammered pretty badly, so he's not too far behind there, either, and his hierro makes him harder to damage than most opponents she's encountered. Giving it a 100% effort (plot-powered) from the very start, Blossom would likely win, but averaging out performances, I rather like Grimmjow here.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd vote Legato no matter what the circumstances were in that match. His attacks are too strong and too fast. And as for the 2nd, I will... No, I won't flop. Bassil has to come make the next round anyway, and you guys know who you are so you can just get your teams in... Now?
I respect the averaging argument but I'm told this is peak power, and it's not like the PPGs don't have an established peak that is... Yeah...
Where were all these low showings (that obviously having watched the show, I already knew about) when Princess was up to bat, or when, who was it, didn't someone here have Blossom last time or was it a different one?
Again, not that it moves me. Looking at Itachi vs. Kakashi was actually much more moving in terms of making overturning my call possible than low PPG showings of hitting people with tons of shots that should've killed them but for the sake of the show's rating, didn't (the same kind of logic that has Shego's blasts destroy walls but not even knock out a normal human, let alone Kimmy). I'm not a big fan of using that because it's blatantly fallacious, at least to me. If there was a diceroll it becomes more interesting, even though still, I'm not gonna act like it's THAT bad. They've been injured by angry mobs at least once in that show, I mean come on there's a line here in terms of what I'll consider. I mean, Durron knows what it is, you ain't new bro. You ain't new.
They pull their punches. That's not a secret to anyone. Saying it's a low showing that they didn't kill a normal human with several hits is silly, because they're not going to do that to a random bank robber or group of escaped convicts. It's not a low showing, it's self control.
Low showing durability? Sure, yeah, when the plot demands it, they've been taken out easier than other times. I'm not arguing that.
I mean, when I picked her, I was under the impression that we were still doing the peak showing thing. I wasn't expecting us to switch to an average of all of their showings, but it's certainly not like I'm throwing a fit or something, I'm not bothered. Next time I'll just go for the guys who only show up to kick ass and then leave.
Given that Blossom has many, many, many more fights than Grimmjow, I think it's really only fair to say that we just haven't seen enough of him for him to have a low showing. I mean, she has well more great showings than he has total appearances on screen, even.
Basically, we know she is capable of speeds faster than him, strength greater than him, and durability more...durabl...y than him. We can see these things, they're there, and in great numbers. But because we're dealing with a show that, while is action oriented, is not about always showing who is the strongest there is, we sometimes get very silly episodes where things just sort of happen to tell a story that isn't all about "oh look what the girls can do this time".
My thoughts, anyway.
A few things lead me against the punch pulling argument. A they hit the ppl like a million times. Either they're sadistic, or its just for humor. People sustain massive facial damage (for a cartoon like that) and still remain conscious and sometimes talking. Also just the speed they fly at, they keep going, hitting people at that speed, and the peoples necks don't snap. Or when they throw people into walls from far away. Too much that should be life threatening is sustained by normal people for me to believe its anything but comedic effect similar to, say, darkwing duck or looney tunes.negaduck is not really strong enough to fall from a high building, get run over by a truck, and then just get knocked out when something falls on him
In terms of peak, I tend to look at peak power and peak performance differently. We take them at their highest level of power, of course, yes, that I don't disagree with. I can't really recall a time, though, where we we take characters as constantly performing at the highest level of effectiveness with the most efficient use of their abilities from the very beginning. If we did, we'd have people speedblitzing each other all over the place, even when they almost never actually do that. While power is taken at peak, judging performance is still guided by an average standard established. Except in case of preparation being involved, of course. Or that's how I've seen it, anyways.
Note: will be away for a couple days probably starting around the 13th: losing access to internet for a while.
Fair enough, and that's why I'd like a roll.
I mean if yall want the PPGs out, I won't filibuster. I think they should stay, they're not busting any teams here. But whatever.
People I can think of offhand that should go are the cast of Captain Planet, as well as Legato.
Well, okay. Comedic effect then. Whatever you want to call it.
And what I said has mostly to do with performance. We're talking about a character that has a lot of fights vs a character that has a couple fights. Who do you think is going to average out better in terms of performance in that situation(unless maybe you're talking about Goku)?
And I'm not saying not to consider those low things at all. There might be scenarios where Grimmjow could win, but do you think that there isn't more evidence of times when Blossom could win? She's outshone him more times than he's even been seen. I can't see how that doesn't mean she should win, just because she also has more times where she hasn't outshone him than he's even appeared. He just hasn't appeared that much.
I also don't quite understand why she will be the one who would have to go full out to win right away. I certainly don't think this is an easy fight; it seems like one of the more drag out ones, to me. And I don't believe she has to speed blitz him right away--but she can, eventually. You know, once she realizes what kind of customer he is, then she can kick into that gear that so often tears up godzilla type monsters on him. It seems like the kind of battle that escalates as each character reevaluates their opponent, but Blossom happenes to have a higher ceiling than he does.
In all honesty, I don't see most of her upper level performances as being better than what we've seen from Grimmjow. Even when she's shooting all over the place, it's not the kind of instantaneous movement he gets from using sonÃdo. It'll be a bit like a game of whack-a-mole, flying around to hit him wherever he reappears while he's already moving to attack (and no, I'm not implying he's going to be doing that all the time, simply one example of why he can turn into a challenge if the match drags on). And in terms of destructive impact, I'd say he's can pull off godzilla-busting attacks of the same level, if not a few better. Even completely disregarding her weaker showings, which I'm not really relying on to begin with, Grimmjow is no easy opponent for her.
Perhaps I can give some insight into one of my preferred research techniques, here. I like to look at the collateral damage done by attacks more than damage done to the actual target of the attack itself. I find it gives a good idea of the kind of power output somebody has, given that the success of the aforementioned attacks usually varies depending on what the plot requires. For example, sure, basic cero attacks rarely seem to have any effect on anyone involved in a fight, but just look at them tearing down buildings and blowing them to bits. That's not lightweight stuff being tossed around, even though the lack of any actual harm being done to anyone makes it seem like a waste of screentime.
...I'm beginning to think this is the only draft where the judges do more arguing for characters than some of their own GMs.
Have you seen M&TV lately?
Anyway, yeah, collateral damage is a very useful tool to use.
Whatever. Apparently we disagree about who is better here.
Maybe if I had more time I could find more specific things about her that might change your mind, but I don't at the moment.
Now you can go ahead and hate 'cuz haters gonna hate but...
I think what it comes down to is that shows like Bleach have characters actually DIE in fights. Powder Puffers just don't. They get bruises or a bloody nose. I get that the girls have some sick powers but I am not nearly as impressed with their durability as the Bleachers, but then again not many in this draft compare for me. Who do the girls fight I am supposed to be impressed with? Half the Bleach list alone impresses me more than those three or anyone from their universe. And Grimmjow,are you kidding me, he is one of the top level Bleachers on both durability AND offense. Their fights are insanely long and world devastating. Maybe I just doin't follow PPG like am obedient 10 year old but I see nothing in that show like I do in Bleach. I know what everyone is going to say to that, I can hear Durron betching from a mile away (and no I didn't watch any vids from his 8mile long post yet) already but I also am not making a judgment here yet. Just stating my opinion. Personally I don't see ANY team busters anywhere in this draft so if we are considering PPG to be team busters then... wow. I just have a good many ahead of them power wise.
Yeah? You can hear me "betching" from a mile away, can you? About what? What exactly am I supposed to be "betching" about here? That you probably didn't really read the argument so much as skim over it while assuming that everything in it had to be nonsense because you don't like me and the way I get all these star calls (I'm crushed, as always) and I must be trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes somehow? Chimmy, I'm not "betching" about it because that's precisely what I expected. No big deal there, guy. Business as usual. And I didn't make that argument for your sake, anyways.
Or is it because you said you don't like the Powerpuff Girls as a show and much prefer Bleach? Why would I "betch" about that? That's... fine. You're going to like what you're going to like there, pal. No one's insisting that you have to enjoy watching clips of shows you don't care for.
Oh, and nobody is suggesting that the PPGs get removed because they're team-busters. Chim, nobody has said that. Where are you getting that from? Maybe try reading carefully before reacting. Maybe? I mean, didn't you just learn that lesson over in the discussion thread when you got all bent out of shape over your own misunderstanding?
There are reasons to (potentially) remove them that have nothing to do with power levels, however. And I'm not even saying that I'm in complete agreement with TLI. But I think it's worth chatting over. You know, when the time comes.
And Yak... dude, I really think you kinda missed the main point of my argument completely. You seem to be under the impression that I was trying to highlight some of their low showings so that I could say something like "See?! Look at how ****ing lousy they are!".
No, no, no. That is not why I posted those clips. Yes, a couple of them do showcase them in some of their lower moments, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I mean, that one where they're captured by the nerd? That's so ridiculous given their higher showings that I immediately classified that as a Spidey/Firelord situation. Maybe I wasn't quite clear enough enough about that in my wording, but I tried to get that across when I linked to the clip itself.
What I was trying to illustrate with that clip was just another example of how they do not just instantly speedblitz their opponents. Whether it's their higher showings or their lower ones, that at least reamins something that's relatively constant with them. Did I find a couple instances here or there where they did speedblitz someone (or something) much quicker than what they did in any of the clips I provided? Yes, as a matter of fact. But when I say a couple, I mean exactly that. I found two. But when you compare that to the fifteen or sixteen or so clips I found of them not speedblitzing right away (again, I didn't think it was necessary to bombard you with every single clip I found)... well, yeah. That's all I was trying to get across.
Yeah, that's definitely what she said.
You forget, durron, that I didn't read your post. Nyah haha!
I wish Dom had won. I keep hoping Dom will win a draft. He's nice and quiet and most importantly doesn't waste my time with clips I'm not going to watch because he's just gonna win the draft anyway.
Yeah, I'm going to go with Blossom. Grimmjow's a character type Blossom deals with daily. The rage fighter. She can handle him. Also would've gone with Haman, but that's my respect for Newtypes talking.
PLAYOFFS! CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIPS!
Location: Endsville (The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy)
"We Kill Everything We See" (4) vs. Murdertrain a Comin' (6)
Cartoon Network Conference
Location: Briggs Fortress (Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood)
AH-HA-HA! AH-HA-HA! AH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! (3) vs. Special Duty Combat Unit Shinesman (7)
Which means we have our FINAL set. We have to say goodbye to Despised and Dom, though. You both fought hard, but just came up a few wins short.
LOCATION: Geofront, Tokyo-3 (Rebuild of Evangelion 2.0)
Murdertrain a Comin' vs. Special Duty Combat Unit Shinesman
This draft is about to end./>
Here we go.