Animated Draft II: Osaka is watching you sleep. Congrats Shurron!

Discussion in 'Archive: Census and Games' started by EmpireForever, Jul 27, 2007.

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  1. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    I just wish I didn't have to let that nonsense with my trump happen. *sigh*

    EDIT: Two other matches this round irked me as well, but neither of them nearly as badly as that one.

    Oh, and yeah, mechs. When I get some more free time, there are a few things I wanna say on that subject.
  2. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    Too bad. You can say nothing.
  3. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    Clearly they suck. My team had no trouble with them.
  4. chaotic208 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2007
    star 3
    to me.. this draft was basically about whether or not your said fighter could beat a mech, they usually either could or couldnt, and died.
  5. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, that's definitly part of the problem. Get to that in a bit. There are a couple of reasons I think these mechs being in the draft is an all-around crappy idea. And it's not that they're unbeatable. Clearly they're not.

    First, and much less importantly, let's face facts here. When you draft a gundam (or whatever mech it might be), you're not drafting a character. You're basically drafting a piece of equipment, and little else. Yeah, yeah, I know you're drafting a pilot as well, and I'm sure plenty of them are decent enough character-wise, and also their piloting ability does come into play. But still, I'm sorry, while that stuff may be a factor, in the end you're drafting the mech, not the pilot, and that just seems off to me.

    Of course, I know that's not totally different from drafting certain characters in other drafts simply because they have a great powerset. Like, for example, Molecule Man. I doubt anyone gave half a **** about him as a character, but he had a bitchin' powerset, so he gets drafted, naturally. But he was also removed from the list for the next draft, as he should've been. These mechs are just... it's... yeah, you're drafting a thing, not a character.

    But that's definitely the lesser of the issues, IMO. More importantly is how these things are viewed come match time. Yes, they're capable of being beaten, but here's the problem:

    Unless it's one of the very select few non-mech characters that obviously have the advantage over pretty much any mech, when a battle between a mech and a non-mech comes up, the question that's immediately asked is not "What will these two characters be doing to try and defeat eachother?". Nope, instead what instantly springs to mind is, "What can this non-mech character do to defeat the mech?"

    That's total nonsense, IMO. The mechs have that immediate advantage in respect to over 95% or more of the rest of the list. The burden of proof is always on the non-mech character as to whether or not they can beat the giant stinkin' mech. And it's no one's fault, just the nature of things, but it still strikes me as being wrong on a base level.

    "What can the mech do? Who cares? It's a giant ****in' mech! That's all I need to know on that side of the fence! So what can this fleshy meatbag do that could possibly harm the giant ****in' mech? Can the non-mech character become intanigble and phase into the cockpit of the mech?"

    "Well... no."

    "Is he or she capable of affecting the pilot mentally? Some kind of illusion technique perhaps or a mind frag?"

    "No, but-"

    "Well then can you prove that they have the power to take on and defeat a GIANT ****IN' MECH in a more direct assault?"

    "Well, yeah, possibly. Look, he can do this and this and that and this. I mean, he hasn't had the good fortune to have been able to prove these abilities specifically against mechs in his show. That not what the show was about, but look, by all accounts, it would probably be enough to win, and-"

    "Hmmmmm... nope, sorry. It's close, but I can't in good conscience give a loss to the mech here when I don't know that those powers would specifically work against a GIANT ****IN' MECH! Try again when he's fought some mechs."

    Kinda exaggerated, but you get my point. And yeah, the mechs lose their share, but it's just wrong that they have an immediate edge over almost everyone else from the word go. Hell, just the fact that they're all grouped together on a seperate list like that supports that little bias. They're not grouped by their specific shows. You have Gunbuster mechs right alongside gundams right alongside the mechs from... that other show. Eureka something or other. It doesn't matter what show they're from, it's mechs and then everyone else.

    Yeah, yeah, I know that it's kinda like the beastie list in the M/TV draft, but after last draft, I'm not sure I'm at all a fan of that idea anymore.

    It's not like there aren't more than enough actual characters on the list to support a draft without gundams. And in case anyo
  6. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    Do not even get me started on the beast list.
  7. Zizz Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2005
    star 4
    It wasn't that bad. I mean, I'm all for getting rid of it, but it worked out pretty okay.
  8. chaotic208 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2007
    star 3
    nah, im for mechs leaving too...
  9. Dom_Perignon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2006
    star 3
    The whole bit about the mechs seems extremely one sided. The mechs that were in this draft were, in fact, very durable and were very powerful. Never once did I come into the match automatically thinking that the mech would take it no matter what. If I feel the person facing the mech has what it takes to beat it, then it does. And vice versa. Its the same for every match, with or without a mech in it. I've never seen a differentiable difference between drafting a pilot and its mech vs drafting someone else who is as durable and has as much fire power as the chosen mech. I remember in the first draft, when I drafted Haman Karn, I picked her not for her Quebely. I first thought it was lacking in the firepower department. I picked her because she was one of the best newtype pilots on the board and because of her allegiance (could work well with the overall tone of my team). Her powerful funnels, although influential, were not the end all for my decison. On the opposite end of hte spectrum, even if I did do that just to get her funnels and her suit, how is that different from drafting, let's say a psychic, just for their mental abilities? If this pilot has tools that you see fit for your team, then whats the problem? They have a characteristic that makes them a good candidate, whether it be a weapon that they use or an ability that they have. Isn't that the point of the draft? Pitting these different abilties, added in with the personality of hte people who use them, to see who would come out on top? Having mechs in it isn't that big of a problem, I don't think. Maybe trimming the list down so it does not include Gunbuster mechs would be advisable, though. I've never liked having them. Seem too powerful to me for the level of this draft.


  10. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    I thought Anderson got kind of crapped on against mechs, but that's about it. I don't mind them. I just mind sometimes when these SEED shields are taken to be dang near invincible. There are alot of ppl who have beaten mechs.
  11. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    If this pilot has tools that you see fit for your team, then whats the problem?

    The problem is Durron dislikes it. Duh.

    Oh and speaking of congrats on the win by the way, definitely deserve it. It wasn't in doubt but after I got a few wins I was hoping I'd get the steal.
  12. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    The issue of completely removing all mechs aside, I'll agree that the Gunbuster mechs should probably go. Also, now that the Pokemon are getting their own draft, perhaps they could be dropped? Just a thought.
  13. chaotic208 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2007
    star 3
    true, pokemon didnt really need to be in here in the first place.... maybe deoxys, rayquaza, and darkrai could stay.. but meh...
  14. Dom_Perignon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2006
    star 3
    I think the inclusion of Pokemon initially was okay, as the anime often takes a different mind than the video games. But now that there is a draft opening up just for them in the future, they probably could go.
  15. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    I am ok with the Gundams going if it is going to be that big of a deal. There's really no reason to cut them, like Dom said it's pretty much the same situation as normal characters powersets, other than Durron's belly achin' that is. And according to him, or at least how I interpreted it, he isn't doing this draft any more so... who cares? No offense intended, I'm just saying. If you don't play...

    I like them personally, I see no reason why they shouldn't be in here as they are anime and belong in here more than some others on the list do. At some point the power level cut off should be drawn, the Dix seemed a a bit much with the size and shields and such, so Gunbuster/Diebuster could probably go. I am fine if they stay with the other Gundams though, no skin off my back. I am fine with the Poke cuts since they will have their own draft within a day or two. Obviously Tsunami and Tokimi are gone, I mean... *sigh* Shabs is gone, maybe Lei too since they are kinda close. Xellos, could probably stay but, whatever. It is a shame to have to make so many cuts to the villain side of things, it is already such a slim list of top power guys.
  16. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    Xellos is probably borderline, could go, could stay, depending on how his abilities are interpreted. As for the villain cuts, that can probably be balanced out by adding a few new villains (I can think of at least two/three at the moment who would be suitable).
  17. chaotic208 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2007
    star 3
    i made a one piece list for the next draft if anybody cares. although there are a few people on that list that are up there with the PPGS and alucard....
  18. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    Yeah but are those high end picks? Can they compete with some of the other first rounders that went in here? If they can't be a corner stone of a team then it's still a loss, not quite as large but still bad.

    Lei didn't really get a testing this draft did he? All I can remember him facing was one decent opponent in Happosai and neither Yak or myself pimped our guys there. So we don't really know what he is capable of against everyone else in here. I'd say it's almost the same for Xellos. They are both great picks, but we didn't see a whole lot of them, more of Xel but still was it enough to cut?
  19. Shadow_of_Durron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, genius, that's exactly what it was. Belly achin'.
  20. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    Well chaotic this is the best time man, bring 'em down. Let's let Durron tell us what he thinks of them.
  21. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    I think there's a couple of villains we could add who could at least (if not defeat) some of the first round picks. Tubalcain Alhambra is a pretty decent villain, probably not first/second round, but he's up there.

    Kuroudou Akabane is an absolute beast for a human, I'd put him in the middle-lower first round area (from a quick glance, I'd say he could fight evenly or defeat a lot of the first rounders). Lei I'm not really qualified to comment on, but I'd say Xellos could probably stay (as soon as his other-universe phasing thing is figured out).
  22. chaotic208 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2007
    star 3
    long post is long (not durron long, yet still long)

    Monkey D. Luffy
    Roronoa Zolo
    Nami
    Usopp
    Sanji
    Tony Tony Chopper
    Nico Robin
    Franky
    Buggy the Clown
    Don Kreig
    Saw-Tooth Arlong
    Kuro
    Red Haired Shanks
    Dracule Mihawk
    Captain Chaser
    Tashigi
    Wapol
    Chessmarimo
    Portgas D. Trace
    Nefertari Vivi
    Mr. 0 - Sir Crocodile
    Mr. 1
    Ms. New Years Eve
    Mr. 2 Bon Clay
    Mr. 4
    Miss Groundhog's Day
    Silver Fox Foxy
    Bellamy
    Priest Satori
    Priest Ohm
    Priest Shura
    Priest Gedatz
    Priest Yama
    Kamakiri
    Wiper
    General Kuzan Aokiji
    Paulie
    Captain T-Bone
    Robert Lucci
    Kaku
    Kalifa
    Blueno
    Kumadori
    Fukurou
    Jyabura
    Wanze


    tell me if i missed anyone important.... i think that covers everyone with enough information up to the end of enies lobby, if anyone even watches it besides me.
  23. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    While we're discussing who to add, here's a couple of guys I dug up who might fit in well.

    One new guy for Hellsing.

    Tubalcain Alhambra

    The new Espada from Bleach.

    Neliel Tu Oderschvank
    Nnoitra Jiruga
    Zommari Leroux
    Szayel Aporro Granz

    Some high-end fighters from GetBackers.

    Ban Mido
    Ginji Amano
    Shido Fuyuki
    Kazuki Fuuchouin
    Kuroudou Akabane
    Haruki Emishi
    Juubei Kakei
    Kyoji Kagami

    I'll see if I can find any others tomorrow.
  24. BartSimpson-SithLord Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2002
    star 5
    I'm going to suggest some GateKeepers eventually, when I get back to my own computer.

    Will also suggest some other things.


    And also: I'm fine with ditching Gun/Diebuster. But I do think that mechs should stay. As has been said, they are all beatable. However, we might need to cut out SEED and Wing.

    And people who suggest any mechs would need to evaluate the show to see if they aren't too powerful. Gurren Lagann, I'm looking at you.
  25. Specterace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2005
    star 4
    I really don't see the problem of having the mechs in the draft at all. The Gunbuster/Diebuster stuff is certainly too much, but the Gundam stuff, Evangelion stuff, Mazinger stuff, and the rest aren't. It's just another thing that falls into the "animated" list, just like the PPG's powers, Utonium's "Deus ex machina" stuff, Naruto's MINDHAXXOR sharingan genjutsu abilities, Bleach's powerful reiatsu techniques, and other stuff that's around the level of this draft. So the mechs are high-end powerful and have edges over lots of other characters? Big deal! You still have to draft the pilot and A) see what his skills and capabilities are using the mech and B)how that pilot fits into your team. Not all mechs are created equal, meaning that the same strategy used to pick other characters apply to picking mechs as well. And even then, it's not like the mechs can't be beaten by a decent part of the list with prep (or without in some cases). So in the end, it's just another ability/skill set that's available to a draftable character (albeit a very good one), and one that can be beaten by others on the list. Why should they be taken out just because somebody here (who has admitted his low level of familiarity with them time and time again) doesn't like that they happen to be a bad matchup with a good majority of the rest of the board?

    And that crap about "the burden of proof" or what have you is utter garbage. The mechs get that reputation due to what they have done in their respective "universe" and what they have done in the draft, just like any "powerful" pick in any draft is. To take an example from the SFD, you have 6 insanely good pilots that pretty much no one else on the list can touch (Vader, Fel, Luke, Wedge, Stele, and Anakin), and you have the rest of the board. Now, when you see a match pitting any of those 6 against anyone from the rest of the board (alone, with trumps, or whatever), isn't the "burden of proof" ALWAYS going to be on the rest of the board, no matter what? Yes, right? Why? Because those 6, through their innate abilities, their accomplishments in canon, and through the happenings of 10+ drafts, have earned that reputation! It's the same with some of the mechs. You take what they are, what they can do/have done, and how they've been judged before, and they get a reputation in the draft. So when the mech goes up against a lesser opponent, the "burden of proof" falls on the lesser opponent, as it should. It's the same as when you're pitting a certain mech against a PPG or a greater mech pilot or Merlin or anything else that can trump what that mech can do. The "burden of proof" should always fall on the opponent perceived to be outmatched. That's the entire point of argument in a draft. If you don't like that, then you should take off any and every "top-shelf" pick from any draft and only allow characters who are all equal to each other in power. That way, there will be no "burden of proof" to deal with at all, but you'll lose a whole lot of characters that make the drafting process fun.

    Bottom line: While I do think certain mechs and characters should be taken off due to abilities and skills far beyond the scope of this draft, we shouldn't take off ALL mechs for this. Not all mechs are created equal, not all mechs do the same thing, and many of the mechs do fall into the "power level" we are shooting for in this draft. Therefore, I'd like to keep many of them (the non-ZOMG over-powered ones a la Gunbuster or Diebuster) on.
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