Animosity toward Anakin Skywalker - Discussion

Yeah I like him. He's the main character, and embodies what Star Wars is all about.

 

Hayden's acting was good, and even when he had awkward dialogue, he delivered it with conviction.

Which is exactly what many people said, and still say, about Luke in ANH and ESB. Among the ESB supremacists, there's this idea that Luke whines all the time in ANH but by ESB, he's grown out of it. What movie are they watching? Luke whines twice as much in ESB as he does in ANH! Practically all he does once he hooks up with Yoda is whine, whine, WHINE!

It's not until ROTJ that he leaves off whining.

Anakin isn't supposed to be a character you "like." He turns to the Dark Side, remember? He turns into a being capable of torturing and killing people.

I suppose some people don't like him because he's not "kewl." Pieces of detritus like Mara and Thrawn are "kewl," and though they have no depth, we're supposed to think they do -- "it's there between the lines." (In other words: it's not there at all.) Anakin is a confused, whiny, conflicted, very immature, often verbally clumsy young man. He's arrogant because of his power, but doesn't have the type of guidance he needs. (Obi Wan did his best, but unfortunately, he wasn't up to training the Chosen One. Even he knew it, albeit in retrospect.) He keeps making bad decisions for bad reasons, but in his mind, they're good.

I find Anakin far more interesting than any EU wanna-be bada**.

 

Hayden's acting was good, and even when he had awkward dialogue, he delivered it with conviction.

Sorry. Can't agree.

Which is exactly what many people said, and still say, about Luke in ANH and ESB. Among the ESB supremacists, there's this idea that Luke whines all the time in ANH but by ESB, he's grown out of it. What movie are they watching? Luke whines twice as much in ESB as he does in ANH! Practically all he does once he hooks up with Yoda is whine, whine, WHINE!

It's not until ROTJ that he leaves off whining.

Personally, I've always catagorized whining as when a person gets that high pitch in their voice. Luke did that with the Toshi Station whine to his uncle and a few times with Han. But in ESB it was basically angry complaints to Yoda.

Anakin isn't supposed to be a character you "like." He turns to the Dark Side, remember? He turns into a being capable of torturing and killing people.

I suppose some people don't like him because he's not "kewl." Pieces of detritus like Mara and Thrawn are "kewl," and though they have no depth, we're supposed to think they do -- "it's there between the lines." (In other words: it's not there at all.) Anakin is a confused, whiny, conflicted, very immature, often verbally clumsy young man. He's arrogant because of his power, but doesn't have the type of guidance he needs. (Obi Wan did his best, but unfortunately, he wasn't up to training the Chosen One. Even he knew it, albeit in retrospect.) He keeps making bad decisions for bad reasons, but in his mind, they're good.

I find Anakin far more interesting than any EU wanna-be bada**.

Oh, he's very interesting. You'd be suprised how many people really LIKE Vader and Palpatine. I thought Vader was a great "bad guy" Anakin as shown in the PT, betrayed alot of good people. His character in ROTS made me angry, unlike in the OT where he was simply, like I said "a great bad guy"

Thrawn, Exar Kun, Sidious are all "great bad guys" in my opinion. But when you see somebody who's treated kindly (like Padme and Obi-Wan treated Anakin) it hits home too well and makes many of us angry. Where the other "baddies" are more abstract. Most people don't identify them as applying to their own lives. Anakin does.

 

I rather liked Jake Lloyd's performance as Anakin in TPM, I think it's very underrated. However, I couldn't stand Hayden's go at it in AotC. His acting was just so bad.

He did improve for RotS but I'll never be a huge Anakin fan.

Eu-wise he's been done okay. Contrary to many I liked him in Jedi Quest because I thought it nicely balanced his anger and enthusiasm.

 

I like Anakin a lot. I liked Hayden's performances in both AotC and RotS. I felt that his performances were quite natural. Even if you don't like what he said and did, I feel it's believeable how he said and did them. I don't like Anakin as portrayed in the Jedi Quest series. I think Watson tried to Vaderize him too soon. One of my favorite Anakin moments in the EU is Jedi Trial. One of the only times he shuts up and listens to Obi-Wan.

 

Anakin had the same pitch in his voice in AOTC as Luke did in ESB, yet you say one is whining and the other is making "angry complaints to Yoda."

I wouldn't be surprised, actually.

And in the OT, he tortures and kills some good people as well. He offers his own son to the Emperor like a human sacrifice. He's willing to corrupt his daughter and taunts his son about it.

Sidious is; the other two are pale imitations.

I think it's kinda supposed to. Lucas didn't shy away from showing Anakin doing bad, really bad, things. Unlike many EU authors, who establish their characters as bad but then back off, whitewashing them and trying to make them seem like they were really doing good all along.

The mark of a good character.

Pretty close to how I feel.

 

I really don't mind the prequels Anakin that much. It's just the fact that Christensen and Portman have no chemistry onscreen that really grates on my nerves, which is unfortunate because their relationship dominated the screentime of Ep.II. Christensen's acting overall really wasn't that bad, in Ep.III I think he actually did a really good job. (Especially in the final scenes.)

 

I'm a huge Anakin fan I thought he was played just the way he was supposed to be Luke was a whinney pain I thought more so so much at times I wanted to ounc Luke in the face. I saw Anakin as Rouge Jedi and sorta like an undisaplined son. And in ROTS he grew up but was conflicted by his love and his greed unfortuantly which eventually overcame him and became his undoing. Which makes him THE MOST INTERESTING CHARACTER IN ANY FANTASY STORY EVER!!!!!

 

I like the "idea" of Anakin Skywalker, but have been sorely disappointed by his portrayal, more so in the movies than the EU but I have problems with both. Perhaps this is due to my inability to reconcile the previous image I had made from Alec Guinness?s fond remembrances and Shaw's performance in the films, but on the whole I think the very fact that people hate Anakin shows a failure in the storyteller, rather than the flaws of the character.

Don't get me wrong; we should definitely find his actions wrong and repulsive, but a great storyteller can make those choices heartbreaking as opposed to groan-inducing. I became frustrated not with Anakin as a character, but with how the character was being portrayed. There is a difference.

To give an example of a successful fallen hero story: Those who played Warcraft III will mark how similar Arthas's downfall was to Anakin's. The motivations and the character's internal logic held up much better there in my opinion. While Arthas's obsession with protecting his land led to his betrayal of his father and the destruction of the very land he had sworn to defend, I simultaneously reviled his actions, yet understood the manner in which he was corrupted.

 

Which was portrayed in ROTS, and in AOTC, the first scene Anakin and Obi Wan had together.

Shaw's few minutes in one single film.

How so?

And how were Anakin's actions groan-inducing? Do you actually think killing children is groan-inducing?

Sounds like you became frustrated because you had a specific image of Anakin in your head and Lucas failed to read your thoughts.

 

In a nutshell:

I think that Anakin is a creepy character. Deliberately so.

I wish we could have seen more material featuring his relationship with Padme. To this day, I'm still not convinced that he ever loved her...regardless of what GL says in interviews.

Anyhoo...I think that the Hayden-Anakin kicks major a$$, while the EU-Anakin leaves me unimpressed. (Although I am one of the few who actually, uh, liked Jedi Trial.)

 

Anakin is a little creepy with Padme in AOTC, but it has to be remembered that he doesn´t know how to act in those situations. No previous experience. And then he doesn´t know how to be subtle. Even when it comes to trying to seduce his one and only love interest.

 

I thought that everyone was welcome on these forums, regardless of age, sex or species. Obviously it's just one of my arrogant teenage beliefs- me being a thoughtless brat and all

 

And how were Anakin's actions groan-inducing? Do you actually think killing children is groan-inducing?

I was a bit unclear here. I don't mean I found his actions groan-inducing, but rather the turn to the darkside that precipiated them. This is difficult to articulate, but I felt that Anakin's fall felt awkward, instead of tragic. I was unable to make sense of his decisions whatsoever, not because I didn't understand "why" the character was making them, but how that decision was presented and the characterization involved. I know that sounds vague, but that's the closest I can get. I believe that the fall removes a very important connection with the audience or reader. How much more terrifying his fall would be if we ourselves can make sense of it or at least begin to. As it stands, many fans have seemingly distanced themselves from Anakin emotionally, thus causing the animosity this thread is discussing. Think of it this way: If the audience hates Anakin, then why should they be relieved when he's redeemed?

Sounds like you became frustrated because you had a specific image of Anakin in your head and Lucas failed to read your thoughts. [/quote]

I'm being picky, true. However, I had no exact plot in mind for Anakin, so reading my thoughts wouldn't have done Lucas much good, as cool as it would have been.

This is redundant, but again this is all just my take on things.

 

And in the OT, he tortures and kills some good people as well. He offers his own son to the Emperor like a human sacrifice. He's willing to corrupt his daughter and taunts his son about it.

The key word here is betrayal. Most of us can identify with that. The only individual Vader betrayed in the OT was Palpatine, only when in turn he was betrayed first.

I'm sorry but I disagree about Luke's voice in ESB. His complaints included:

You want the impossible.

We'll never get it out now! (that one could be a whine.)

We're wasting out time!

You're making a mess.

Out of all these, I hear only one possible whine. The rest were in a regular tone.

When Anakin is confessing what he did to the Sand People, he definitely has a whinney voice. But he's not even complaining. It's just Hayden's voice is naturally whinney.

 

Personally, I've always catagorized whining as when a person gets that high pitch in their voice. Luke did that with the Toshi Station whine to his uncle and a few times with Han. But in ESB it was basically angry complaints to Yoda.

So...
Anakin's utter anguish and torment over the death of his mother and his subsequent actions = whining...

Yet, Luke basically saying:

'Get out of my room, Yoda! I'll tell mom!' (Get out of there, you could've broken that)
'Are we there yet?????' (We're wasting our time! Humph!)
'I'm taking my ball and I'm going home! (You want teh impossible!!)

Are all mature, well-reasoned, well-proposed arguments?

*flicks off those nostalgic glasses*
Now... look at that again. Look what you're comparing...
Why the Hell does Luke get a free ride?
I see what you mean by tone. But I would say a whine by definition is a petty argument/complaint that is usually accompanied (but not always) by a whiny tone.
I would never consider uuter distraught over the death of a mother and the confusion/anguish over vengeful murder a petty complaint over getting one's shoe (or in this case ship) stuck in the mud.

'My mom died... I... I took horrific actions without... without thinking. This is a desperate cry for help!'

'Who cares!?!?!? We're taking too long to get home and my pants are muddy!'

Wow...

 

I thought that everyone was welcome on these forums, regardless of age, sex or species. Obviously it's just one of my arrogant teenage beliefs- me being a thoughtless brat and all confused


TF's just a cranky old person wink

And teens are sooo predictably and self righteously hyper-sensitive.



It was a joke, for the most part. Anakin acted just like the typical 19 year old in AOTC. He is a legal "adult" but not quite an adult yet. He thinks he can take care of himself, because he's got all kinds of people looking out for him.

He matured greatly during the Clone Wars, but that kind of early maturing is sad, because it comes from tradgedy. A young man should not be forced to go fight after being taught to be a pacifist all his formative years. It's a confusing message for all the Jedi, but esp. for a conflicted person on the cusp of manhood.

He had bottled up rage from a confusing time of explosive emotions. I don't think anyone could stay completely sane after falling madly in love, having your mother brutally murdered, losing an arm, and having your life completely turned upside down by war all in the same week! It's too much for anyone. He then tries for three years to be all things to all people, which is impossible. He lost his sense of who he really was in the process.


When Anakin is confessing what he did to the Sand People, he definitely has a whinney voice. But he's not even complaining. It's just Hayden's voice is naturally whinney.

Actually it's not, now that he's a man. I read from a girl that met him last month that he has a deeper raspier voice, and that it surprised her (along with how sweet and nice he is), and he has a strong Canadian accent, much more so than in the movies.

You have to remember that Hayden was really only 19 when he did AOTC. He was a kid.
Mark Hamill was 26 when he filmed SW and 30 when he did ESB. He was 33 in ROTJ.
That is a grown man being compared to a real boy.

 

So...
Anakin's utter anguish and torment over the death of his mother and his subsequent actions = whining...

You're misunderstanding me.

I wasn't saying Anakin was whining there. I was giving an example of when he wasn't whining, where in fact he was showing anger, that his voice was hitting that high pitch. No he wasn't whining there, he simply has a whinney voice.

I see what you mean by tone. But I would say a whine by definition is a petty argument/complaint that is usually accompanied (but not always) by a whiny tone.

Yes, Luke was a big-time complainer up until ROTJ. The ONLY difference is in the voice tone. Luke sounded whinney really only in ANH.

As far as complaining goes, I'd easily say "like father, like son." The only difference between the two is that Luke didn't inherit his father's raging temper.

Right or wrong, a high-pitched voice-tone tends to annoy us guys probably a bit more then it should.

 

Heh. Good point, the two scenes are about entirely different things. Luke complains about his ship getting stuck, Anakin is lashing out in rage and grief after his mother died (in his arms) and his subsequent slaughter of the creatures who tortured her to death. But Anakin is a whiny brat, and Luke is merely "voicing his complaints to Yoda."

What-frickin'-ever.

Er...okay.

Earlier you said:

Anakin in AOTC was annoying. Hayden's acting was bad (or maybe he was being fed bad lines) Anakin also whined way too much in this movie.
Where else does he "whine," or "not complain, but show anger use a whiney voice," as you put it?

I'm not quite getting you. He whines but doesn't do so in a whiney voice? Or he complains but doesn't do so in a whiney voice?

Whining is whining, regardless of whether one does it in a whiney voice.

Or perhaps, they just weren't what you expected?

Er...okay. You do realize that you aren't speaking for everyone, here. There are people who can make sense of his fall, even if it certainly wasn't what they would've done themselves.

And many others haven't.

 

nm

 

I guess I'm someone who has animosity towards Anakin.

Is it because of jealousy? No. Hayden? No.

It's because Anakin was an arrogant **** and a creep. I know guys like him IRL and I don't like them.

If I was Obi-Wan Anakin would have lost his limbs far sooner than he did.

 

Where else does he "whine," or "not complain, but show anger use a whiney voice," as you put it?

That was an example of how Hayden's voice, is just Hayden's voice. Some peoples' voices tend to raise in pitch when they complain. Hayden's voice is just the way it is.

He did whine to Padme about Obi-Wan holding him back. He whined to her because she didn't want to become his lover. He whined because Obi-Wan didn't want him to jump out of the ship to go after Padme.

Whining is whining, regardless of whether one does it in a whiney voice.

Whine: verb- To utter a HIGH-PITCHED plaintive or distressful cry. noun- a complaint uttered with or as if with a whine.

This came out of a Webster's Dictionary. So as you see it does have to do with voice-pitch.

Actually it's not, now that he's a man. I read from a girl that met him last month that he has a deeper raspier voice, and that it surprised her (along with how sweet and nice he is), and he has a strong Canadian accent, much more so than in the movies.

You have to remember that Hayden was really only 19 when he did AOTC. He was a kid.
Mark Hamill was 26 when he filmed SW and 30 when he did ESB. He was 33 in ROTJ.
That is a grown man being compared to a real boy.

I totally agree with everything you posted. Even in ROTS Anakin had ZERO whine in his voice.

Guys aren't fully developed until about 22, whereas girls are at about 16.

 

He shouted in anger and in grief. And his voice didn't raise in pitch, at least not any more than Luke's did when he whined to Yoda.

When? If you're referring to the fireplace scene, he didn't whine anywhere during that.

He screamed that he couldn't leave her.

Right. So by this definition, Luke whined in ESB.

It can have something to do with voice-pitch, but not invariably.