ANNOUNCEMENT: Posting in basher/gusher threads is a bannable offense

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by NathanDahlin, Oct 27, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    You people can't control me! I'm a rebel, a loner. If I wanna be a basher one day, and a gusher the next, that's my pergorative.
    You're all thinking inside the box. Quit living in the box, living in a cardboard box. Rule the planet! Seize the day! Smack down them stoopid Gungans (except for sexy Cap'n Tarpals). I say what I want, when I want and to whom I want in what way I want and when I want and where I want!

    Duckman hath spoken.
  2. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    And he's got a lisp. Because he said hath instead of has.

    *writes in notebook, 'Never do that one again'*
  3. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    There goes the sweetest boy in the galaxy.
    The boy has no patience, I cannot train him.
    That name no longer has any meaning for me.

    Do you see where this new announcement will lead, because I do?
  4. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    In 2 1/2 years of posting here I've never been banned. I think I know how to discuss TPM rationally and make reasoned arguments that people have always felt free to take apart and thrash soundly, etc. I don't have a problem with that. I also don't have a problem with the idea that the forums aren't a democracy. On the other hand, NathanDahlin's policy is so vague and overbroad it is almost impossible to understand.

    "If I see a thread inhabitted mainly by a handful of bashers and gushers exchanging comments, I will lock down the thread and issue spanks to the participants."

    The most straightforward interpretation of that statement is that we are no longer allowed to discuss the merits of Episode I. Under this policy, even if such threads are allowed in theory, any one person can sabotage a legitimate thread and get every participant banned.

    Under any conceivable reasonable structure for these forums, that policy has to be viewed as nonsensical.

    The system, as it has functioned for the 2 1/2 years I've been involved, works more or less just fine. All discussions and posts are handled on a case-by-case basis to see whether they meet the standards of the community. Moderators need some leeway in making those judgments, of course. I'm fine with that. But for a moderator to abdicate his responsibility by shutting down whole avenues of discussion that have helped keep this forum going for several years smacks of laziness and immaturity.
  5. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Are you sure you understand what NathanDahlin is saying? Read the title of this thread. It has always been a policy here, if I remember correctly, to ban trolls. The title of this thread paraphrased is "threads that attract trolls will be shut down and anyone who fails to correctly assess the situation and stay away will be banned along with the trolls."

    Posters in this thread have been working hard doing NathanDahlin's job for him by re-writing the policy to try to make sense of it, but maybe we should have a serious re-posting of the policy from the admins with an attempt to nail it down from the point of view of reasonableness.
  6. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Let me be frank:

    When I read this new policy, I started to weep for joy because I realized that the era of those people who attack other fans simply because they didn't like TPM, is over.

    However, my fear is that this new policy won't really be enforced because the people who commit these acts of "fan-hating" have thus far gotten away with murder with little to no admonishment from the moderators.

    Can someone clarify whether the fan-haters will be stopped from pouring out their venom on other SW fans? Or will they continue to be allowed to conduct their campaigns of mean-spirited, hate-mongering, insult-fests undetered? When will their savagery be halted? Can SW fans get any justice here? Or are we condemned to continue to bear the malicious acts of these crazed mass-haters?

    Did I love TPM? No.

    Did I hate TPM so much that I wanted to burn every single copy of it? No.

    Did I think that TPM had some excellent stuff in it? Yes.

    Did parts of TPM bore the begeezus out of me? Yes, absolutely.

    Were there some engaging and exciting scenes? Yes, absolutely.

    Do I think GL is a genius? Yes, absolutely.

    Do I appreciate the gift of SW? Everyday single day of my life.

    Do I agree with everything GL does? No, and I'm not afraid to say so.

    Am I still a SW fan if I didn't love TPM? Yes, absolutely.

    Do I tell me people who loved TPM that they are dumb? No, never.

    Do some people who loved TPM tell people who didn't like TPM that they "didn't get it" or that they are no longer SW fans or that they are intolerant? Yes, and they've been doing it for over two years without pause.

    Should the moderators put a stop to these "fan-haters"? Yes, with extreme prejudice.
  7. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    TrueJedi and I haven't always agreed, and this is one of those times. :) If someone tells me I'm not a fan because I don't appreciate the full extent of TPM's greatness, it has about as much effect on me as someone telling me I'm not really a music connoisseur because I don't listen to Britney Spears.

    The truth is that the basher-gusher story is really a story of a group of people who like Star Wars and have been talking about it non-stop for quite a while without nearly as much animosity as many people like to think. Basically, we all get along fine. Occasionally someone will send me a personal message along the lines of "how can you think that???!!!" And really I treasure that. These people are great. And they all love Star Wars. Why make a mountain out of a mole hill? Why not simply continue to let thinks work just fine the way they really have all along?

    If a few people among us prize equanimity above interesting discussions, let them do what they probably have been doing from the beginning: stay out of the basher-gusher threads. Everyone else should be encouraged to go about their business.
  8. MountainMan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2001
    star 3
    In response to hawk, you asked if the following thread topics would be considered bannable:

    1. The music isn't good enough
    2. TPM will always be remembered as the weakest film in the saga
    3. JJ Binks wasn't as funny as 3PO
    etc...


    Actually, these are the very topics that start Basher vs. Gusher wars in the first place. Why? Because you are opening the discussion by stating your opinion flat out as though it were a fact. For instance, it is fair to say that "Some people will remember TPM as the weakest in the saga." But by wearing your opinion on your sleeve from the get go, you're just asking someone to come in and directly contradict you, and direct contradiction usually degenerates into insults and flames.

    If you legitimately want to discuss the topic (as opposed to merely airing your grievences with TPM in public) you could start the above threads by asking a question as a point of discussion, like this:

    1. Do you think the music in TPM was as good as the original trilogy?
    2. Do you think TPM will be remembered as the weakest film in the saga?
    3. Who you find funnier: Jar Jar or C3PO?


    As opposed to requiring someone to directly contradict you in order to discuss the issue, you are opening the floor so that everyone can give their opinions by answering what is basically an open ended question.

    I guess the bottom line is, if you legitimately want to discuss an aspect of the film then you are welcome to. However, if your intent is to simply state your opinion leaving little room for rational discussion then the moderators will ban you. It's as simple as that.
  9. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    I'm more confused than ever. It may be time for me to announce my exile again.
  10. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    "Chat threads"... oh NO!!!

    You mean people might actually talk TO each other, instead of just stating positions all the time? :eek:
  11. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Jabbadabbado:

    TrueJedi and I haven't always agreed, and this is one of those times. If someone tells me I'm not a fan because I don't appreciate the full extent of TPM's greatness, it has about as much effect on me as someone telling me I'm not really a music connoisseur because I don't listen to Britney Spears.

    I think that's nice that you don't mind having insults heaped upon you. And, it's great that you don't mind being told that you don't get it and that you are no longer a fan and that you are not tolerant. It's just super for you. I really am very happy for you. :p

    But for those us that come here daily to discuss TPM, it gets old fast. And since the moderators seem interested in cleaning up this mess created by non-stop gusher/basher conflict, my observation is quite valid.


  12. TravCon12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 1998
    star 3
    Hmmmmm thinking of responding to TrueJedi in a way that will not get me banned so here it goes:

    I believe by Fan-hater he is refering to me from another topic where he and I got into it a bit when I questioned his motives for starting a thread. Now I won't get into who started what, or who is more to blame, but I accept my fair share of the portion of the blame on turning that into an unnecessary flame session. I still vehemently disagree with TrueJedi and his characterization, but so be it. Nothing I say to him will change his mind and nothing he can say will change mine. He knows what I think of him, I know what he thinks of me and life goes on.

    What I think is important for people to understand is this, there is a lot of history and baggage people carry around in here, the comments people have made over history indeed count towards their overall impression of what is thought of them. Does this mean the impression is always right? No it doesn't. Is it always wrong? No of course not.

    Also, when entering a discussion of TPM it is a bit like talking about family member in my opinion. Do you realize your family member has flaws? Of course. Do you like it that people like to point them out? Some to an extent even enjoy point it out? No I certainly do not.

    In conclusion I am going to go pop some popcorn and sit down with my son to enjoy TPM, flaws and all, loving every minute of it and just hoping others can and will do the same.
  13. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Looks like it's time for me to fire up the converters, angle the deflector shields and hightail it out of here. Vanilla, milquetoasty, sterile discussions are not my cup of meat... and it looks like that is exactly where this board is headed.

    Yes, I hold and regularly state opinions on SW. Many others do too, and many of them do not hold the same opinions as I do. I've been part of many spirited discussions hereabouts and though some of the more knee-jerk gushers out there drive me a little nuts at times, I've thoroughly enjoyed our verbal jousts.

    Now that it appears that such jousts are likely to be considered "bannable offenses" by The Powers That Be, I think it's time for me to rethink my desire to continue to post here. I think I've always been reasonably respectful of my fellow posters, but since it takes so little to be tagged a "basher" around here, I don't imagine I'd last long anyway.

    "What good's an opinion if ya ain't around to use it?"
  14. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    TrueJedi, you defend yourself so easily from gusher attacks that I simply assumed you enjoyed it. I had no idea that the process has been so painful to you. In all my time here, I've only been told to get lost about three times, most recently by Go-Mer-Tonic when he postulated that bashers do not belong here.

    What strikes me as funny is that, while the new policy has the guise of impartiality, it clearly has the intended effect of making the forums a safe, pleasant and friendly place for gushers only.
  15. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    TravCon12, thanks for keeping it cool.

    Although you and I had a recent discussion regarding "fan-hating", I honestly wasn't thinking of you when I mentioned it above.

    Many people in this forum have suffered the verbal abuse of some pro-TPM fans merely for not liking the film.

    As I stated above, I loved the OT, I liked alot about TPM and I think GL is a genius. Even so, I have been the target of a number of hate posts.

    I do not encourage nor have I ever supported insulting TPM or the fans who enjoyed it. My hope is that every fan who liked TPM can simply accept the fact that many fans of SW did not like it and these TPM fans not feel the need to take personal shots at those who didn't love TPM.

    I'm not asking for love, just for a little respect. Thanks.
  16. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Jabbadabbado:

    TrueJedi, you defend yourself so easily from gusher attacks that I simply assumed you enjoyed it. I had no idea that the process has been so painful to you.

    Let's put it this way: I would rather spend my time chatting about TPM rather than defending myself against verbal attacks.


    What strikes me as funny is that, while the new policy has the guise of impartiality, it clearly has the intended effect of making the forums a safe, pleasant and friendly place for gushers only.

    So you're saying that you think that this new policy is geared towards making the forums safe for gusherism? What makes you think this to be so?
  17. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Now that it appears that such jousts are likely to be considered "bannable offenses" by The Powers That Be

    I don't think so. There are KEY WORDS cbjedi keeps using that some of you haven't picked up on: Flamming, trolling, disrespect.

    Can you be involved in a verbal joust without flaming, trolling, or being disrespectful? Absolutely. However, if there is someone in this forum who doesn't know how to engage in a debate without resulting to flamming, trolling, or disrespect then they probably shouldn't be involved in any debates.
  18. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Well, "trolling" can be interpreted as broadly as one likes, and herein lies the problem. At what point do so-called "bashers" end up being banned as "trolls"?

    It seems to me that since there always HAS been a system in place whereby moderators can effectively deal with trolls... and now suddenly something has changed. Now we seem to be being told that the tone or phrasing of a post or discussion header shall now come under greater scrutiny and people will now be more easily banned on that level. If this were not the case and it was no easier to be banned now than it was last week, then why make a big statement as the mods did the other day?

    Sure sounds to me like the bar has been lowered as to what constitutes a "bannable" offense.
  19. C-3P0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2001
    star 4
    I applaud the moderators for trying to clean this forum up. This used to be my favorite forum to visit.

    Unfortunately, it has become extremely stagnant. Good ideas are pushed off page one just to make room for yet another, "Hey guys check out this review of TPM", type of post.

    Additionally, many of the posters here are firmly entrenched in the basher/gusher mentality. Someone who is known as a basher gets ridiculed when they make a positive statement about TPM and vice versa.

    I hope the new rules will allow for intelligent discussion in this forum with respectful disagreement with fellow posters.

    Personally, I would like for the administration to take a dim view of any post the has basher or gusher in the thread title. These threads always degenerate into petty bickering.

    Finally, congratulations to both NathanDahlin and cbjedi. I hope this concept of yours brings a breath of fresh air into this forum.
  20. Harabec Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2001
    star 4
    It'll either be a boost to the forum or the destroyer of it.

    I hope those two know what they're doing [face_plain]
  21. xuxuspetals Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2001
    star 1
    It is a basic tenet of civilized society that one need have a well-defined policy that provides fair warning before implementing a code of conduct. Otherwise society runs the risk of ad hoc determinations upon which no reasonable person may predict the consequences of their own behavior or speech. It seems to me that despite what is being said here, the perceived problem (by the moderators) is, in fact, the disagreements and occasional vitriol that appears on these boards. I cannot agree that curbing dissention or disagreement is a breath of fresh air needed to reinvigorate this board.

    "If I see a thread inhabitted mainly by a handful of bashers and gushers exchanging comments, I will lock down the thread and issue spanks to the participants."

    To me that is simply a way of saying "If I don't like what's going on, you'll be sorry." How sad. I doubt I'll be back. Take care all, I hope I edified some of you at least. You have often done so for me, despite the occasional flares.
  22. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Patrick Russell makes a good point though. Where is the concensus that the current system is not working? One of the most enduring inaccuracies in the whole basher-gusher debate is the belief that it is plagued by anger and disrespect for opposing viewpoints. To me, insults aimed at my fandom are just a sign of a poor debating style, nothing more. Most people just move right past these childish tactics back to the real topic.
  23. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Mountain Man,

    by the same token would these threads be inappropriate:

    1. The music rocks!
    2. TPM will always be remembered as the strongest episode
    3. JJ Binks is funnier than 3PO

    Ok, I guess we will have to edit this

    1. Some people think the music rocks
    2. Some think TPM will be remembered as the strongest
    3. Do you think JJ Binks is funnier than 3PO


    SILLY, SILLY and LAME

    Quite simply each thread is open for discussion but the opening thread is regarded as the opinion of the author. Someone who reviews a film doesn't say "Hannibal was a bad film to some but to others it wasn't". Of course not. The author will state his/her opinion "Hannibal was bad!"

    When I sit down to write a thread, I am not going to go through all this red tape to keep sensitive people happy. I will deliver my opinion and if people get upset by my OPINION, they can state theirs. Simple. But all this PC nonsense is untruthful. It is up to those who respond to the threads as to whether flames will start.
  24. C-3P0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2001
    star 4
    I disagree.

    The wording of the title and the first post in a thread sets the tone for how the debate will unfold. When a debate begins with absolutes and a hostile attitude, flaming is never far behind.

    Note: This applies equally to TPM is the best thing ever!!! and TPM is the worst!!! type threads
  25. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Hawk, I don't have a problem with people saying TPM is the worst film they've ever seen. What irks me is when bashers, or even professional critics, say something like "We all know TPM sucked, really".
    That is not cool :(
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.