CT Another SE change that causes problems: Vader & the Emperor's altered dialogue in TESB.

There's often a lot of discussion about the pros & cons of the SE changes. Most of them focus on personal preference & which version of those scenes each person prefers. The issue that receives less attention are the story problems that some of those alterations create. For example, the infamous "Greedo shoots first" scene is often reviled bcs it detracts from that moment where Han acts like a mercenary who's prepared to shoot first to protect himself. Like a gunslinger in the wild west. I completely agree with that criticism, but just as big of a problem is that the SE scene doesn't match up with the dialogue. Greedo says he's going to take Han to see Jabba. That Han can explain his story to him, & maybe he'll only take his ship. If that's his intention why would he shoot & try to kill Han? The scene makes a lot more sense in its original form.

A lesser known problem was created in TESB SE concerning Vader, Luke & the Emperor. IMO it opened up an even more blatant plothole than the Greedo scene or any other SE alteration. The gist of it is this.

In the original ESB Papatine mentions Luke to Vader. It was obvious they were both aware of him & who he was. Vader tries to play him down by saying he's just a boy & is no threat. That made perfect sense & matched the other events & dialogue. In the latest version of the SE Lucas changed it to where Vader pretends to be surprised about Luke. When Palpatine claims he's Anakin's son Vader says "how is that possible??". A seemingly minor change that creates a clear story problem. The opening crawl tells us that Vader is obsessed with finding Luke & has the fleet out searching for him. What's more the fleet knows that is their mission. Vader openly announces to the officers that he's after Skywalker ("I'm sure Skywalker is with them!"). So if Admirals like Ozzel & other senior officers know then Palpatine would also have to know. Or at the very least Vader to be safe would have to assume that Palps would know. So why during their conversation is Vader brazenly pretending to not know who Luke is? Are we expected to believe that Vader is obsessed with finding a young boy with the name Skywalker & he doesn't think he's his son?? If that's the case why would he & the fleet be so fixated on finding him? Does he just have an obsession with anyone who happens to have the name Skywalker? When he feigned surprise about Luke being his son Palpatine should've said "if you're so damned surprised about this news why do you have my fleet scouring the galaxy for the boy!?".

It gets even worse though. Vader in his conversation with the Emperor then immediately says "He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him" . That's after a second earlier being shocked that he could be his son. Vader reaffirms later on Bespin that he knew Obi-Wan had trained Luke ("Obi-Wan has taught you well"). So let's get this straight. Vader knew the boy who destroyed the Death Star, that he sensed such strong Force power in & that happened to have the name Luke Skywalker was also the Jedi pupil of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Vader's old Master. Also, Luke is about the perfect age to be his son. And Obi-Wan was the last person that he knew was with a heavily pregnant Padme 18 years earlier. Yet he doesn't make the connection that Luke is his son?? ...Even though he's obsessively searching for him. Or just as bad, he does know but he's pretending to Palpatine that he doesn't know. Even though he knows that Palpatine also knows everything he knows about the history of Padme, her pregnancy, Obi-Wan etc. Oh & also the fact that the kid is called 'Skywalker'. And that Vader has been announcing to admirals that Skywalker must be found! It's a mess. It makes Vader look like a fool for either not realising that Luke is his son or for trying the dumbest lie in history on a guy who has just as many of the overwhelming facts as he does.

If Lucas really wanted Vader to pretend to be surprised to Palpatine he needed to also remove the line "the Rebels are there, & I'm sure Skywalker is with them!". Saying that to high ranking Imperials is like saying it to Palpatine himself. If playing dumb was Vader's plan he'd be smart enough to keep the whole thing under wraps. Pursue the Rebels but keep his mission to get to Luke a secret. Shouting Luke's name around the ship & then playing dumb makes Vader look like a fool. Since Vader's not a fool the mistake here is with Lucas. Fact is he would make these seemingly minor changes & retcons & not bother thinking them through.

Here are the two versions. In the first one there's no game-playing or surprise by Vader. The second one (beginning at 00:50) includes the significant change of Vader playing dumb regarding Luke...but then immediately implying that Obi-Wan trained him!

 

Vader obviously already knows Luke is his son. He's been chasing 'Skywalker' around all movie.

When Palpatine calls him up, in both versions, Palpatine brings the info about 'Skywalker' to Vader as if it was new to them both, as if he'd just discovered it.

Obi-Wan is referenced simply because Vader encountered him on the Death Star, at the same time Luke was present, implying their connection. Sidious would likely have been told about Obi-Wan's death, Vader having been directly present for that. But it's been implied that Vader has been hunting down the Death Star destroying Rebel in private, knowing about Luke long before Palpatine does.

The bit where Vader 'plays dumb' by asking how it was possible, is to make it seem to Palpatine that this new info to him as well, and also asking the obvious question of how this happened when Padme supposedly died soon after Mustafar.

 

Great post and completely agree! I made a similar argument in another thread awhile back. Of course, I got a lot of push back from defenders of the change.
http://boards.theforce.net/threads/what-is-the-best-palpatine-hologram-in-your-opinion.50042887/

 

But it wasn’t “in private”. Vader made no secret of that within the fleet, or that he'd already identified that rebel as Luke Skywalker.

I get that, but how can Vader pretend it’s new info after he & the fleet have been hunting for that Rebel & they already know he's Luke Skywalker? Are we suggesting that Palpatine is completely uninformed about what's going on in his own fleet? Or that the fleet is full of fanatical Vader loyalists who will not inform the Emperor or any other of the top brass in the Imperial Navy of their real mission? Doubtful since Vader murders them over the slightest mistake they make. Vader couldn't possibly be foolish or reckless enough to assume that Palpatine didn't know that he knew about Luke. To do so would be trusting the likes of Ozzel not to've passed information higher up the chain.

 

This is one of those changes that those who seem to support any and all changes really have to grasp at straws to defend. The original dialogue is perfect, straightforward and to the point. A visual change? Fine. I prefer the original hologram, but I get that many prefer Ian McDiarmid. However, the dialogue change opens up a giant plot hole that supporters of the change have to bend over backwards to try to explain. There was no need to explain the original dialogue. As I already stated, it was straightforward and to the point. Everybody understood it. Nobody questioned it. It made perfect sense. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

 

What's odd is that Lucas did get McDiarmid in to record almost the exact same dialog as in the original, I believe for the 2004 dvd version. Which can be seen as the second clip here. Then for some reason he changed the dialog for a later release, which created this plothole. Very strange decision.

 

All I can offer as a rationalization for the SE change is that Vader and his officers were trying to apprehend the individual responsible for the destruction of the Death Star.

But as Darth Downunder correctly pointed out, it's Vader beinig "obsessed" in the prologue and everybody in the audience then (and especially after seeing the film) concluded that he was so obsessed because he wanted to recruit Luke as an ally against the Emperor. And I believe Vader had already added 1 + 1 and concluded that Luke Skywalker must have been his son.

Otherwise Vader might have just as well been "obsessed" with finding Han Solo, the guy who robbed him of his heart shot and was responsible for Vader's TIE fighter spinning out of control into the void.

 

I think the truth is closer to the fact that they needed to show the audience that Vader had a personal interest in Luke for some reason. It didn't matter that he is loose lipped among Imperial fleet officers (no doubt keen to claim such a scalp themselves in revenge for Yavin). It's not as if they are going to mention in passing to the Emperor how Vader keeps banging on about this Luke Skywalker he's looking for.

 

But it was his personal search. For the Empire, Luke is just another rebel.

The fact that Luke is Anakin's son is meant to be new info since Anakin wasn't supposed to have an offspring at all. He was told he had killed a still pregnant Padmé.

The scene causes no problem whatsoever and ties in nicely with the events as depicted in ROTS.

 

It's not like most imperials had a one on one meeting with the Emperor. Hell, before ESB most imperials seems to be completely unaware of Vader otherwise you think they would think twice before openly mocking him like Motti did in ANH.

 

Correct. Vader is obsessed with finding Luke, but he isn't certain this was his son. Palpatine tells him to search his feelings, because he knows the truth and is in denial of it. That Obi-wan had hidden the child after he was born, but before she died.

 

I'd say Vader already knows Luke is his son, which is why he's looking for him. So Vader pretends to be ignorant about it and confronts the lie to the liar (Sidious).

 

In Legends, yes, there was a hint of uncertainty as late as TESB. In Newcanon however, once Vader's gotten the relevant information, he's much more certain, long before TESB comes around.

 

A change I've often offered an alternative (and indeed, my own initial) interpretation of

"How is that possible?" - what makes you certain that's "Whoa, you mean it's my son?" as opposed to "How is it physically possible considering you told me I killed my pregnant wife and therefore also the kid(s)?"

It could be interpreted as him risking a dangerous game of bluffs, yes, and I suppose that's cool enough. It could be seen as Vader erasing any shadow of a doubt that Luke is his son. However, to me, I read it as Vader seeking clarification. He knows that Luke's his son. But just how can that be? HOW? He killed his wife, and to his knowledge, that included the kid. It simply doesn't add up. So when he asks the only person who might know, it's just coldly brushed aside with basically "dude you know he is, just go with it"

 

But not for the Emperor. If it's openly known to the fleet that they're pursuing Luke then the Emperor would also know. We've never seen anything from Palpatine to suggest he wouldn't know what's going on in his own fleet.

The only way that works is if Vader is suggesting that even though it's been openly established that it's "Luke Skywalker", he doesn't believe he's his son. He's expecting the Emperor to buy that he's obsessed with finding some unrelated person who happens to be called Skywalker. That's crazy.

So you think Vader could safely & confidentially assume that Palpatine would not be aware of his own fleet's mission? After announcing it to the likes of Ozzel & anyone else who was within earshot? How stupid & sloppy is Vader supposed to be?

 

If we go by both versions of the speech, Palpatine appears to have just discovered Luke's identity, and has gone to contact Vader straight after.

This seems to imply that Palpatine is unaware of at least the specific motive behind Vader's attack on Hoth and pursuit of the MF.

 

Palpatine only appears to need to convince Vader in the changed dialogue. There's no argument from Vader that the son of Skywalker (and not Tim, Dick or Harry Skwyalker) must not become a Jedi in the original version.

And even then the amount of personal anxiety that Vader displays about Luke, more than the Rebel's and their base, shows that the significance of this rebel is more than just the last remaining pilot who managed to get the job done at Yavin (thanks to the intervention of his friend coming to the rescue). The idea that Vader would not have contemplated that Skywalker is related to him, somehow, considering how selfish he is supposed to be about attachments, is rather incredible.

The change to the scene only enhances the Emperor's recognition of Luke's origins in the wake of the prequels which changed the original concept of Vader and the Emperor not knowing Padme had been pregnant before Anakin turned and joined the Emperor. Now not only did the Emperor and Anakin know, it was changed so that this knowledge played a crucial part in Anakin's turning.

For me it's the same as the throne room scenes in ROTJ between Vader and the Emperor where Vader is playing dumb. "He will come to me...". It's just a pity that the prequels neglected show Anakin being anything like as "cunning" as that implies or which Obi Wan stated outright.

 

Alexrd wrote

I'd say Vader already knows Luke is his son, which is why he's looking for him.

That much is evident in the original version / Theatrical Edition, the SE doesn't add anything of importance

So Vader pretends to be ignorant about it and confronts the lie to the liar (Sidious).

From a storytelling point of view I consider the SE change to be redundant. What was the need for the extra "noise"? That Vader is lying to the Emperor, telling him he could be a strong ally although he planned to use that ally only for himself, is equally evident from the original version.

Admittedly, that Vader is "obsessed" with finding Luke Skywalker is in the prologue which is only meant to be read by the audience sitting behind the Fourth Wall, "in-universe' things may appear different.

All we have is his reaction upon the probe droid's Hoth Information:

VADER (studying the image
on the console screen)
That's it. The Rebels are there.

OZZEL My lord, there are so many uncharted
settlements. It could be smugglers,
it could be...

VADER That is the system. And I'm sure
Skywalker is with them. Set your
course for the Hoth system. General
Veers, prepare you men.

Now, his first reaction suggests that they were "officially" looking first and foremost for the new Rebel base.

His second statement suggests they were also looking for Luke Skywalker, the Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. From an Imperial officer's point of view it looks as if Vader is certain that they can kill two birds with one stone.

That Vader may not be aware that Luke Skywalker is his son was perhaps Lucas' intention for the dialogue change in the SE, but on the other hand that is rather unlikely, given Luke's last name and - of course - the prologue information, unless Lucas considered the possibility that younger viewers might not (yet) have been able to read that information.

 

In my opinion, the original version doesn't make sense UNLESS Vader is hiding his personal search for Luke from the Emperor (which is more more clearly seen in the revised 2004 version -which, by the way, is NOT a SE change!).
"We have a new enemy. Luke Skywalker".
That's the original line. How does it make sense to say that Luke is a "new" enemy when, in fact, Vader has been trying to find him during the whole movie?
The truth is that the only point of the scene is to present the Emperor, and to establish the idea that Luke should be turned instead of destroyed. It would be more logical if the original dialogue said "How is the search for Skywalker going, Lord Vader?".
The revised version underlines the original interpretation of the scene (The Emperor doesn't know about Luke) by tying it to the PT (and to the end of the movie), making it clear that Vader wants to find Luke to use him against the Emperor.

 

Well there's being an enemy of the Empire, and there's being an enemy of Vader and Sidious, the Sith. Vader sensed Luke's strength at the Death Star so, whoever that pilot was, Vader is first to recognize him as a potential Sith enemy, or ally.

I wouldn't put it past the Emperor to consider Vader dumb enough not to make the connection due to the name Skywalker, considering he convinced him that he killed Padme even though he felt that she had survived (which she had, up until she..... whatever).

I don't think that's clear at all until Vader proposes it on Bespin. Yeah he said to Padme that he could overthrow the Emperor in III, but that just seemed like mental tap-dancing from a totally cracked Anakin to me.

 

I think you're misreading the scene slightly. The answer lies here:

What Palpatine is calling Vader about is "a great disturbance in the Force". It's through that disturbance that Palpatine has identified Luke Skywalker, who they're already pursuing, as a new threat to their very existence. I don't think we're meant to believe that Palpatine has just heard about Luke. Or if he has then we get back to saying "what the hell?". His fleet & admirals know who they're pursuing. How can the Emperor not?

When Vader also states "He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him" that was always meant to suggest they knew that Luke was with Obi-Wan on Tatooine & the Death Star & had probably received some basic training from him. Now, after Vader pretends to not know who Luke is why would he immediately associate Luke with Obi-Wan? Vader either doesn't know about him or he does. Which of the two is he trying to portray here!? These lines all made sense originally. They're a bit of a mess now.

 

Vader's original first reply on hearing Luke's name is "He's just a boy.", so there was clearly either some prior discussion between them, at least about rebel pilots, one of them named Luke Skywalker, or the name is known throughout the Imperial hierarchy.

 

The Empire is pursuing the Rebels, Vader is after Luke.

Wether Palpatine knows he's after Luke or not is irrelevant. What he doesn't know is Vader's motive.

Why? Is it also crazy that the guy who destroyed the Death Star is a person who happens to be called Skywalker? If you accept that premiss, you have to accept the second.

Again, wether Sidious knows that Luke is being looked for or not is irrelevant. He obviously is, considering that he knows he's the one who destroyed the Death Star. But Vader's motive is not known to anyone but himself.

 

I don't agree.
Vader trying to hide this from Palpatine makes NO sense. He uses Luke's name in front of other imperial officers, all of whom could contact Palpatine. And it clearly wasn't the first time he used Luke's name as they didn't go "Skywalker who??"

No, what the original film set up was that Luke the rebel pilot, he was known to Vader, Palpatine and the Imperials.

What changed during the film is that Luke suddenly is a lot stronger in the Force to the point that Vader and Palpatine can both sense him from across the galaxy. That is huge.
Also, since Vader already knew that Luke had been with Obi-Wan and gotten some training from him. Then so too would Palpatine. So they both know of Luke's past.
But for three years since ANH, Luke has not been causing "Force-quakes" that are sensed across the galaxy. But now he is.
THAT is why Palpatine contacts Vader. THAT is why Luke is now a new enemy. Now he is not just an enemy of the empire. now he is an enemy of the Sith.
Plus, as far as they know, Luke is alone with no one to train him.
And now all of a sudden he grows in power to the point where they sense him from vast distances.
If he is able to do that all on his own, then he is a lot more dangerous than they thought.

Luke the rebel pilot was a threat yes but not much more of a threat than Leia, Wedge, Mon Mothma etc.
Luke the jedi to be, that is on a whole other level.

So in the original version, both Vader and Palpatine knew about Luke before but what has changed is his power and that power has the emperor worried. And so he contacts Vader to let him know that the game is now more dangerous.

The revised version either has Vader trying to pull a very weak lie to Palpatine by pretending to never have heard of Luke. Which doesn't work as vader is smarter than this and he knows that Palpatine would not fall for such a transparent lie.
Or Vader has been after a Luke Skywalker, trained by Obi-Wan and from Tatooine. And yet at no point did he ever consider that this could be his son.
Again, Vader is not this dumb.

If his question is supposed to be about why Palpatine told him that he killed Padme.
Then ask that, ask why Palpatine lied about it. What happened is not hard to understand, Padme lived long enough to give birth and Obi-Wan fooled them. There is no need for Vader to ask about the bleeding obvious.

No, having Ian there makes sense but the dialogue did not need to be changed.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The only part I still don't understand is how or why the Emperor noticed a "great disturbance in the Force". Luke has just arrived on Dagobah and is on his way to Yoda's hut.

I guess with his arrival on Dagobah and meeting Yoda, their combined Force potential somehow messed up the previous equilibrium of the Force (or Yoda just decided to stop hiding in 'stealth' mode).