CT Another SE change that causes problems: Vader & the Emperor's altered dialogue in TESB.

You're leaving out the part about the change looking completely ridiculous. So what you're telling me here is, for the sake of making Han seem a little less cold hearted, which doesn't work in the 2011 version, as they shoot simultaneously, the scene was altered to include the incredibly awkward head dodge of a laser blast at point blank range. Furthermore, the altered scene turns Greedo into the worst shot in the galaxy, missing at point blank range, and by extension, Jabba the Hutt, supposedly the biggest, baddest gangster in the galaxy, is made to look not so big and not so bad for sending someone as incompetent as Greedo after Han. The original scene is perfect. The altered scene is less than perfect while offering absolutely nothing to Han's development. Han doesn't come off as a little less than cold because, as has been pointed out, they shoot simultaneously in the 2011 version.

 

Eh...I could care less. Unless I'm looking at frame by frame, I'll see it in a totally different way. I do wonder how much time he put into editing the scene and/if he wanted to enhance more of the CGI a bit.

Like I said...

Cold>Chilly.

5 more degrees to 40 F isn't that much warmer. Only slight difference. At this point, I'm arguing with a meme now so this isn't worth my time.

Greedo was never that intimidating or seemingly great with a blaster when I saw him. I dunno...Greedo is a goon, and most goons are incompetent. Did he have anything good about him before hand?

Ah well...It's done.

 

None of us kids thought Han was too cold blooded between 1977 and 1997. We thought he was a badass when he just blasted Greedo through the table. That’s why when we would all play at being Star Wars characters, there would be like one or two who would be Luke, the token girl in the group got to be Leia, and over a dozen kids all wanting to be Han Solo.

 

To that degree of Han shot first arguments?? I deeply concur...

And this is why this fanbase is half maniacally insane. Though you can't really tell what's good or not because the obsessed get the mikes.
I can't say I'm out of that box but I'm not quite in over my head with it.

I Agre-

Objection.

Because this scene doesn't warrant such obsessive impulsion.

Yes. In some ways, the feeling of this scene does feel big when looking at the original side by side...Until the later versions released/changed and got better to where I didn't give a Eopies ass. I just genuinely find this such a pointless scene to go over and over again...

You know what actually matters when it comes to scene change? AOTC's re-editing. Not a conversation for today in this thread or forum but THAT is a better example of making some more significant changes from the original. I keep watching Han's scene over and over again and I just don't see how it destroys the original.

He wasn't that memorable and he was a joke. Got in too much over his head and acted like an ass. Can't say a knuckle really chuckles but I sure did...

 

If he's reacting to being shot, then he has some sharp reflexes. Very in line with Han's character.

I know. It was obviously a typo.

Because Lucas felt like it.

Or you simply disagree.

Again, the 'self preservation' aspect remains the same.

No. If he wanted to "minimize" it, he would have removed it. But he didn't. Hence why his attitude remains intact.

No, we don't have a 'less efective' scene. We have an 'as efective' one, and more explicit. As for the second part, that's just your opinion.

By Jabba, not by Greedo. Now Greedo actually shoots, which justifies Han's killing in a more explicit way.

Far from it. It's more explicit than ever.

If he's just taking him, why would he need to kill him? After all, wasn't he just going to see Jabba?

Jabba brings the issue later in the docking bay, asking why did he have to kill Greedo. As we've seen, Greedo just tried to kill him.

As if. It's Lucas who's capable of seeing the "wider implications" that some fans don't (want to).

 

To be honest, I didn't think it was that big of a deal back in 1997. A really liked the original SE release, as it was a perfect opportunity to revisit the restored trilogy in theatres, with the added bonus of some updated effects and a couple of new scenes. Personally I jumped off the bandwagon with the DVD release, when Lucas took the alterations to a whole new level not only by making more changes, but also by completely altering the color timing of the films in a not very subtle manner. The original SE was color timed to closely match the original theatrical releases, and particulary Star Wars had a very distinctive look.

This review of the DVD from the American Cinematographer perfectly describes my own response to the new look of the films:

..."When I began watching Star Wars, from the moment I saw C-3PO and R2-D2 on the blockade-runner I knew something was amiss; something didn’t feel right. I kept watching with an odd, unbalanced feeling in my stomach, and it wasn’t until the story cut to Tatooine that I realized the cause: this was not the Star Wars I knew. A new color pass has been done, and the soft (nearly flashed), pastel color palette created by Gilbert Taylor, BSC has been replaced by very sharp, high-contrast, super-saturated imagery. The blues were nearly popping off my screen, and the blacks were so crushed that in certain scenes — especially those that take place in the Sandcrawler — the image was losing significant detail. The over-saturated blues have also washed out a lot of sky detail and appear to have negated some ND grads that appeared in the original photography.

Taylor’s photography on Star Wars was part of what made it unique — the picture didn’t have the sharp, high-contrast, snappy look of most fantasy films. Like John Barry’s inspired production design, which looks aged and worn, Taylor’s desaturated palette and use of nets created a muted, somewhat tattered look that helped ground the story in reality. With this new transfer, that look has been completely destroyed. The new color timing does, however, make Star Wars more closely resemble the other five films in the series, especially the latter ones shot by David Tattersall, BSC. Nevertheless, this change was jolting."...

https://theasc.com/magazine/jan05/dvd/page2.html

To this day watching the blurays is sort of jarring, because while I still enjoy the films, something in my brain is telling me, that something's off about them. I think it also sort of examplifies the change of the scope of the films for me, as the many aspects that defined Star Wars for two decades, it's cinematography, editing, sound mix, special effects, etc, have steadily been narrowed down to one artist's singular vision.

 

It's nice that the Emperor was changed to Ian McDiarmid in the SE, but they should have kept the original dialogue. Unnecessary change there.

Han shot first. Anything else is madness lol. Seriously, why would GL change that? It's not a good choice. Looks bad too.

One X-Wing approach shot in ANH looks like an outdated video game now. Not a good change.

Tbh, I don't mind a lot of the SE changes in all the different versions, but some of them are really misguided and unnecessary. The worst offender is Jedi Rocks. Now that is just a ridiculous sequence lol.

 

Great. If that had always been planned & the dialogue was written to match then there would be no issue. Now the dialogue seems very poorly written. If Greedo's plan was to murder Han he wouldn't be talking about what Jabba will do to him, & that he may only take his ship. GL's writing in this scene appeared fine for 20 years. Now it seems amateurish.

Huh? You've just repeated what I said. Greedo says he's going to take Han in. He's a bounty hunter. TESB confirms that Han must be brought to Jabba alive, not dead. We have multiple sources of proof that Jabba makes the final decision on what happens to those who cross him - not some bounty hunter. Are you saying you're unable to see any issue with the dialogue compared to the actions in this scene?

 

I dunno, I just think the original idea worked better. I'm not opposed to changes where they improve the narrative, or provide some continuity, but most of the SE changes were to scenes and ideas that were already really good, but which then were slightly ruined imo.

I like the way the way Han sidles his blaster out, and then there is that final, epic exchange
"I've been looking forward to this for a long time"
"Yes, I bet you have" BOOM - THUD

It was perfect, and it just ended up being made unnecessarily messy. Han didn't need to justify a return shot because Greedo shoots, he just shoots him dead, no messing.

 

Han shot first = Han didn't wait to see if Greedo could wait a little while longer before blasting him.

 

Which is the point that got to Lucas. That some people actually see it as "Greedo wasn't going to shoot but take him to Jabba."

If that is the case then Han is an outright murderer killing Greedo for no reason at all. No self-defence but just because he's a killer.

The scene was unclear as to what was happening.

The same thing with the Emperor scene. As originally done it confused a lot of people because the start of the film shows that Vader is looking for Luke but then when the Emperor appears he says nothing about looking for Luke.

They don't discuss it and it's like Vader is being informed for the first time. That he was hiding his knowledge of Luke from the Emperor was not clear. By adding the line "How is this possible?" that Vader is hiding this from the Emperor is makes the point.

The original idea was fine but it got all confused once Jabba was taken out of the movie and the Greedo scene which made more sense had lines from the Jabba scene added in. Then Greedo went from talking to subtitles and everything was less clear because text has little impact compared to what you see. What you see is Han sneak shooting a guy like a villain would.

 

If that bothered Lucas then why did he write dialogue that implied that Greedo was taking Han to Jabba? Why also did Lucas make it clear in TESB that Jabba DOES want him brought in alive?

"No reason"? He was going to take Han to a dangerous gangster - at gunpoint. Han had every right to defend himself & not allow that.

 

He made the mistake of thinking everyone would read the subtitles and get the context that Greedo was going to kill Han right there and then.

What's more when he did the text he not only turned it from vocal to text he cut the text down so much that the point become very subtle:

GREEDO You can tell that to Jabba. He may only take your ship.

HAN Over my dead body.

GREEDO That's the idea. I've been looking forward to killing you for a long time.

HAN Yes, I'll bet you have.

By murder? He could have simply knocked him out or outwitted him any number of ways. A couple of scenes later he is talking to Jabba anyway and he doesn't immediately take out his blaster. He had no expectations that Jabba would want him killed which makes the killing of Greedo even worse.

At least in the original version you can argue that killing Greedo meant escaping Jabba who was going to have him killed. The problem with that though is that the whole. I need money to pay off this debt is a non-starter because no amount of money is going to please Jabba (which is what does happen later). In ANH the story is saying that Han needs the 17,000 to pay off Jabba and everything will be fine. The addition of the Jabba scene reinforces that point.

 

It isn't unclear Qui-Riv-Brid. People that read the subtitles knew that Han has a price on his head (there was no need for him to be alive until Boba Fett said so at the end of the next movie). Greedo is happy to take the debt from Han for his silence, which he'll probably double cross him on.) Then he implies that the debt is not much more than the value of Han's ship. When Solo says that he will die first Greedo says "THAT'S THE IDEA, I've been waiting for this for a long time!." So it's personal. Personal profit. Personal vendetta. Has nothing to do with Jabba. Greedo tries to extort money then suggests taking the ship instead then cuts the BS and tells the defiant Han that he's toast.

So to not be a villain, like you're saying it makes him, Han is supposed to allow Greedo to keep his promise of killing him? It's sneaky to shoot your self confessed murderer before they go ahead and murder you.

If Greedo only wants to convey Han to Jabba, why is he shouting "I've been waiting for this for a long time!"? Why does he march Solo back to his table instead of marching him straight to where Jabba is waiting for them?

 

Maybe so, but the entire saga is about the redemption of a character responsible for the death of millions, and then Han shooting a gangster who has him at gun point is a bridge too far? I don't get that. Han had a clear arc in the original, going from being a selfish, shady, and dangerous smuggler to rebel hero. If Vader can be redeemed, logic dictates, Han can shoot Greedo without some questionable moral implication to the bigger picture.

 

Even in real life, common law generally allows for pre-emptive action in self-defence as long as that action is reasonable and proportionate. Pre-emptively shooting dead a known criminal who has you at gunpoint and is making threats would not be murder. Even less so in the fantasy realm of the Mos Eisley Cantina in Star Wars.

 

Pointing a gun at someone is reason enough for a person to think that their life is in danger.
The visuals didn't overrode anything. Greedo stopped Han from leaving by putting a gun to his chest and forced him to sit down.
Even with NO text you can see that Greedo is threatening Han.
The text then tells us that Greedo is enjoying this, he is savoring the moment before he gets to kill Han.

There was nothing unclear about it. Lucas changed it because he thought that Han was a good guy and good guys never shoot first. Even when the other person is threatening them with a gun and is saying that they will kill them, good guys don't shoot first.

So he had Greedo shoot first to make it clear that Han would not shoot first. He was fired upon and then he decided to shoot Greedo in return.
But then he got a lot of complaints about how bad this new scene looked and then he made up some stuff about how the scene was suppopsed to be this way originally.
Which the films producer denied. And which was supported by the script and by the prop gun the Greedo actor had in the scene.

So now Lucas has been shortening the time between shots so that Han isn't waiting for Greedo to fire before he is allowed to shoot.
So he knows he made a mistake but doesn't want to admit it and instead tries to make the new scene as close to the original as possible.
So now Han doesn't wait for Greedo to fire, he shoots him. Greedo also manages to fire of a shot but misses at really close range.

Because the NEW thing is the "great disturbance" in the Force that Luke is creating.
THAT is why Palpatine contacts Vader. Luke is suddenly growing a lot more powerful.
So powerful that they can sense him from across the galaxy.

So Luke the rebel pilot, that is old news.
Luke the powerful Jedi in training, that is new.

Really?
Palpatine is not aware that Vader has one SSD and several ISD and is running around the galaxy?
That is retarded. How could Palpatine not know this?
And Vader is using Luke's name in front of other imperial officers, all of whom could inform Palpatine about it.
No, the way it was originally, Palpatine knew very well that Vader was out looking for the rebels and Luke in particular.
What has now changed is Luke's power. Before, he didn't cause as much as a blip on the Force Radar.
Now he is causing "Force-quakes". So he clearly is a lot more powerful than what they thought.
So the situation has changed, now Luke is a threat to the Sith, not just a mere rebel.
That is why Palpatine contacts Vader and that is what the dialogue was about originally.

It made perfect sense.
Now it makes less.
Either Vader is so dumb that he could not put two and two together or he is pulling a very weak lie to Palpatine. Which is also dumb.

If so then him using the name in front of other imperial officers makes him a moron.
So good job, you have just reduced Lord Vader into a dimwit.

And his lie becomes even more stupid as later he says "He is just a boy, Obi-Wan can no longer help him."
How could Vader know this if this is the first time he was told about him?
No, he knew that Luke had been with Obi-Wan and all that.
So clearly he knew well who he was.
So this makes his earlier lie even more obvious.

[/QUOTE]

Except originally he did no such thing.
Again, he made no effort to hide who he was looking for when talking to other people so Palpatine was well aware of this.

Now it is a mess.
Before, both clearly knew who Luke was and they had probably discussed him before.
But then only as a rebel, nothing more.
Now he is becoming a jedi and a much greater threat.

@Alexrd

Congratulations, you have found another reason why this change is stupid.
Jabba clearly knows what went down in the cantina.
So if Greedo shot at Han and Han shot back, why would he bother to ask this question?
Greedo tried to KILL Han! What did he expect, that Han should just ignore people shooting at him?

No the way it makes sense is if Greedo never fired at all and so all Jabba knows is that Han shot Greedo.

The way these two scenes were made originally, although the Greedo scene was changed when they decided to cut the Jabba scene.
Jabba sent Greedo to pick up Han and bring him. Greedo either misunderstood or he choose to re-interpret what Jabba said and so he went with the idea to kill Han.
He tried to get the money from Han, probably for himself. And during the whole scene, Greedo is enjoying himself, he is savoring the moment before he gets to kill Han.
But he is not smart enough to keep both of Solo's hands on the table, where he can see them.
So Han kills him when it becomes clear that Greedo intends harm.

Han's response to Jabba is telling.

So the Jabba scene works if Greedo did not shot at all as then Jabba has a reason to ask.
As it is now, Jabba's question makes no sense.

@Qui-Riv-Brid

How could it get to Lucas?
The Jabba scene was not IN the original version.
There was just the Greedo scene, which, as many have said, made it abundantly clear that Greedo was threatening Han and intended to kill him.

And again, Han's response makes it clear that Greedo intended to kill Han. Either due to a misunderstanding or that Greedo had his own reason to want Han dead.

And no, Han is no murderer in any shape or form.
Greedo has a gun pointed at him and stops Han from leaving and forces him to sit down.
That is a clear threat and Han is within his rights to defend himself.

Lastly, Han said he was going to see Jabba but Greedo did not let him. Instead he stopped him from leaving and forced him to sit down. Even if you don't read subtitles, it is very clear that Greedo isn't taking Han to see Jabba as then they would have left right away.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Which version of the movie has that dialogue? Where Greedo mentions killing him?

If someone has a lethal weapon aimed at you you're entitled to defend yourself using deadly force. Trying to "knock them out" could get yourself killed.

How do you reconcile the fact that TESB establishes that Han needs to be brought in alive for the bounty to be awarded? Greedo mentions the bounty as his primary motivation. So why throw it away by killing Han? Which ruins any chance Jabba has of recouping his losses.
How do you explain Greedo having several minutes to properly aim at Han from a few feet away & then missing? Han didn't dodge the blast btw. It would've easily missed anyway:



Is that your idea of a well staged scene?

 

With the exception of changing the Emperor from a Green Alien in ESB to the Emperor we know in ROTJ, editing the films should not be done. We all saw the film's for years, to change it and want us to forget what's been for years is a mistake. So many changes to justify the mistakes made in a film and to justify the new route you want to go is a mistake. You can make justifications in novels, but don't change what happened to make the story fit what you want. In my opinion it's the fans who should look at the scene after it's been released and interpret what they see, to edit a film that millions have seen for numerous years is pretty.

 

Thats what you get for doing a blind copy and paste from google.

 

That was no blind copy and paste. As I said when he did change it from vocal to text he cut the text down.

Sorry I should have highlighted the text that was cut/amended

GREEDO You can tell that to Jabba. He may only take your ship.

HAN Over my dead body.

GREEDO That's the idea. I've been looking forward to this for a long time.

HAN Yes, I'll bet you have

Then there are other earlier versions where Han says something like "I don't think they'd like another killing in here." and Greedo looks around and says something like "They wouldn't even notice."

If Lucas had kept the killing you in then there would be no doubts about intent and I wonder if that had been the case then maybe the scene would never have been changed.

I guess he thought the "Over my dead body." and "That's the idea." was enough.

 

Even if Lucas had kept the old dialogue, it is likely that he would have changed the scene later on anyway.
Because it isn't about Greedo threatening to kill Han.
It is about Greedo shooting first.
Lucas explains it here;

So as Lucas says here, it would not matter what threats Greedo made, Han is NOT allowed to shoot first because he is supposed to be John Wayne and John Wayne doesn't shoot first.

So in Lucas mind, it is all about Greedo actually shooting at Han BEFORE Han can shoot back.
So it does not matter what kind of threats Greedo makes, he can put the gun to Han's head and say "I am going to kill you now." According to Lucas logic here, Han is still not allowed to fire his gun. He has to wait for Greedo to make good on his threat BEFORE he can shoot.
To Lucas, if you shoot first in ANY circumstance, you are a cold-blooded killer.
That is why Lucas made the change, not make it clear that Greedo intended to kill Han, but that Han is a good guy that waited until Greedo had shot at him before he used his own gun.

But strangely, Lucas seemed to forget all the instances on the DS where Han shoots imperials before they can shoot at him.
And that it is rather moronic for Han to hold his fire UNTIL Greedo actually tries to shoot him.
And that Han is not a clear cut good guy yet, he is a shady character, out for money and protect himself.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Yeah. And what had that poor probe droid on Hoth ever done to Han?

 

Except that is informed by the whole cold-blooded killer aspect which obviously got to him over time never mind that it was never really there in the first place.

Han had to "shoot first" because across the table Greedo shooting first was impossible to miss.

Of course it's impossible for Han to register that Greedo shot first and respond.

Yet he has Han "shoot first" against Vader when Vader has done nothing. Why not cut that out then too?

So that explanation doesn't fit.

I think more likely the sneak aspect is the problem in that case.

Clearly Lucas changed the scene for 97, 04 and 11 to where you have to pay particular attention and freeze frame to see that Greedo shoots frames before Han does.

 

If Han didn't think Greedo was going to shoot him he wouldn't have upholstered his gun in the first place.