Lit Anti-Alien bias, as an EU invention was it a good or bad idea ?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by fett 4, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. Ghost Chosen One

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    It makes sense, to justify the lack of diversity seen in the OT movies.
  2. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

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    It also gives the Empire a more "Nazi" feel with the whole human supremacy thing.
  3. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    It's goofy, post hoc, and doesn't even match what we see in the films. Heck, in TPM, the big racists are Panaka and Kenobi. :p
  4. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Kenobi doesn't like droids either. He got that "grumpy old man" persona down at a very young age.
  5. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    "I don't seem to recall ever owning a droid . . . for more than a few minutes anyway since I tended to treat mine as disposable."
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  6. fett 4 Chosen One

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    In regards the whole white, male and British it's probably because they filmed in the UK for the first two films. RTJ was filmed in North America so you can hear the Imperials start developing American accents.

    It's not just the Imperials though, in the films Leia is highly disparaging of Chewie as a big walking carpet.

    Though how you write it does put it in a better light as to whether it was a good idea.

    For social systems I always looked more at Rome with the obvious parallels and the wasn't there a fued between two sets of monks in China which is the basis of the Jedi and Sith.
  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Technically none of those droids were his droids- they all belonged to the Temple, what with Jedi taking a vow of poverty and all.
  8. GenAntilles Force Ghost

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    A droid with Kenobi has the life expectancy of a Starfleet security officer with Kirk.
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  9. Havac Former Moderator

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    Yeah, because Wookiees are too stupid to figure out how to bend down! Animals.
  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Yup. I lean to the view that "If Lucas didn't want the Empire to feel Nazi-ish, he wouldn't have called its elite soldiers stormtroopers".
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  11. fett 4 Chosen One

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    Being beaten up by Teddybears does not make you elite ;)
  12. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    They were the elite screw ups. :)
    Last edited by rumsmuggler, Jan 22, 2013
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  13. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    BS. Is it post hoc to claim droid bias based on Wuher?
  14. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

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    Stormtroopers must be a german thing
    In the movie Passchendaele, German troops apparently referred to a unit of Canadian crack troops as stormtroopers.
    According to the movie anyway.

    P.S.
    These guys were in WW1, when the Nazis didn't even exist.
  15. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    He says, "We don't serve their kind here." D'ya have any comparable quotes from Imperials? The best example you'll have, I submit, is Piett's line about bounty hunters, and the EU has no problem in saying that the Empire frequently employs their ilk.

    Your argument is equivalent to saying that X-wings and TIE Fighters are less sophisticated technology than N-1 fighters because they look less advanced in the OT: and we saw that argument made in the ill-informed mass media. We know better.

    I don't need to raise the specter of Saxtonitism to aver that visual judgments can be misleading.
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  16. General Immodet Force Ghost

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    Please, do not compare anti-alienism to the Nazi regime...
    It has nothing to do with it. Nazi has nothing to do with prosecutions. It simply stands for national socialism, a political form. Its leaders are to blame for the crimes that were commited.
    It is just like communism, capitalism...
    I think it is shortsighted to associate a political form with prosecutions.

    Anti-alienism has to do with racism, a humain trait we have had for centuries and we will have for centuries to come.
    I think introducing anti-alienism into the EU is not a bad idea. It makes it more realistic...

    And yeah, I know some of you probably will not agree with my post.
    I do not want to insult anyone. It is just my opinion. No disrespect!
    Last edited by General Immodet, Jan 22, 2013
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  17. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    The only reason Nazism is more than a footnote in history is BECAUSE it was changed into a xenophobic, nationalistic, hateful régime. It is more than a footnote in history because its leaders killed or exiled all their opponents -- whether on the right or left -- and brainwashed the population. I'm not one for painting with broad brushes, but there is absolutely ZERO room for recognizing the Nazi ideology as anything other than something monstrous and disgraceful.

    And moreover, it is beyond dispute that the Empire was based or is at least channeling Nazi Germany in part (among other inspirations: British, Romans, Nixon, etc.): Imperial uniform design is rather WWII German in nature, and of course we have the well-known use of the term "stormtroopers." Moreover, the EU's use of COMPNOR, ISB, and human high culture is an obvious reference to Nazi racism.

    It does no good to hide one's head in the sand and pretend otherwise. First: The Nazis are bad and national socialism is not, cannot, and should not be treated as a neutral ideology. Second: the Empire is portrayed, in both movies and EU, as space Nazis.

    My argument has always been that the Nazi comparison is incomplete and that the Empire is not some monolith (a view that WEG, which to my knowledge invented COMPNOR and the ISB) and had different ideologies within it. Although to be honest, maybe a comparison to Nazi Germany is apropos: before Hitler murdered all those who disagreed with him, his Nazi party had significant opposition among the old-guard monarchists like von Hindenberg and the like: similarly, COMPNOR had its share of enemies as well.

    But just as the Nazis were evil jackbooted thugs, so too were COMPNOR and its lackies. We cannot and shall not pretend otherwise.
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  18. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

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    "Where are you taking this...thing?"

    Yes, Leia also had the walking carpet line, but she was from the Imperial Senate. It just goes to show how widespread such ideas were: after all, the empire did not create anti-alienism, just exploited it.

    On a side note, I found Wuher's line odd even as a child. What would you serve a droid in a bar anyway?

    Well spoken.

    Makes you wish COMPNOR got more attention huh?


    Maybe even some kind of story set in the Imperial Civil War and we get to see Stormtroopers vs Army Troopers vs Compforce.
    Last edited by MercenaryAce, Jan 22, 2013
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    And the Emperor as well?
  20. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    No. His Imperial Majesty is a beloved, frail old man who would never dream of hurting one of his children. These policies are the product of bad advice and unscrupulous ministers. Known racists such as Sate Pestage, Wilhuff Tarkin, Pollux Hax, and Crueya Vandron were responsible for the creation of COMPNOR and Human High Culture.

    Blame those to whom blame applies.
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    There's also the decision to appoint ultra-racist Pitta to the Grand Admirals, and give him dungeon ships, which he used against the Outer Rim.

    How much evidence does it take before we conclude that he was appointing these people on purpose?
  22. Esg Jedi Grand Master

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    Jello is just trolling [face_monkey]
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sometimes it's hard to tell.

    Anti-cyborg prejudice seemed to be a bigger thing in early Marvel SW than anti-alien.
  24. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    I'm not entirely clear what you mean by "visual judgments", but I'm mostly talking about the guy in my picture on page one - you know, the one in the first movie who calls Chewie a thing. The helmet guys behind him don't exactly look like they're rushing to phone HR about it.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Jan 22, 2013
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  25. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Yes, Coop, some guy == the law of a galaxy-spanning government. In fact, some guy is obviously a better spokesperson for Imperial policy than one of the top Rebel leaders who says something very similar in the same film.

    There's always going to be "some guy" -- if that's the best from the films that you have to justify saying that the Empire has an institutional anti-alien bias and the Rebels don't, it's extreeeeemly slim.

    The point about visual judgments is that the basis often asserted for anti-alien policies is the lack of aliens seen in the Imperial Forces, which is a pretty stupid thing considering we saw the same thing out of the Rebellion until ROTJ. We also saw the same sort of comments that that one flunky made uttered by Princess Leia. If the film alone is a basis for an Imperial anti-alien bias, the same holds equally true for the Rebellion -- yet it's somehow natural that only the Empire would hate aliens because the Rebels are "good guys" and just simply wouldn't do that.

    It's the same sort of annoying, unthinking crap that got us things like "Homeworld Security" -- because of course a villain is not a real villain unless it has every single possible negative association we can come up with. Lazy!