Lit Anti-Alien bias, as an EU invention was it a good or bad idea ?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by fett 4, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    I was actually just referring to their massive state funded public construction projects to bring employment and try to counter the recession that way, something otherwise very popular in more socialist systems. Not the sometimes outright bizarre systems they otherwise went with when it came to economics, or pretty much anything else.
  2. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    I was actually just referring to their massive state funded public construction projects to bring employment and try to counter the recession that way, something otherwise very popular in more socialist systems. Not the sometimes outright bizarre systems they otherwise went with when it came to economics, or pretty much anything else.
  3. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Though both fascists and socialists may have nationalized industries, they did so for very very different reasons and therefore state control of private property can rightly be termed a characteristic of both. Both fascists and socialists were also hostile towards people of quality, which is -- of course -- unforgivable and petty.
  4. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    I do not think you all understand what I am trying to say.
    You cannot just blame "nazism" (= national socialism) for what happened before and during WW2.
    You cannot blame a political movement.
    The only ones who are to blame are the leaders. They misused nazism.
    Over time, genocide and racism had become associated with nazism. I never got why.
    That is why I hate neo-nazis so much. They misuse nazism too. They are more anarchists.
    Genocide and racism have happened all the time. For example, the colonists killed almost all the Indians in the US and Aboriginals in Australia.
    Racism is only natural. Races do not like to smell the skin odour of other races.
    => Why would you associate genocide and racism with nazism. I would associate them with humanity in general.
    Look at the Stanford Prison Experiment and the Experiment of Milgram. You see what people are capable of.
    Humans are just animals. We are all bad. Everyone can be a murderer.

    Why have nazims and communism got a bad name? That is because of people such as Hitler and Stalin. Their actions were wrong.
    Originally they had good intentions, only power corrupted them. The times were different back then.
    The Wall Street Crash caused a lot of unemployment in the US and in Europe. People became more radical.
    They took desperate measures. People such as Hitler and Stalin rallied the people. They gave them something to hold on to.
    Eventually everything got out of hand, but we should not forget a lot of industrialists (such as Ford) were also pretty rascist at the time.
    In other times, nazism could have worked.
    In theory, "communism", "capitalism" and "nazism" are all good things. They all have some practical issues. That is all.
    Even "dictatorship" can be good. In theory, a good dictator is the best head of state. He can take decisions without having to discuss it with some sort of parliament (which causes lots of delays in the real world). The only thing is a good dictator does not exist.
    Capitalism also has a lot of flaws. Capitalism essentially means "survival of the fittest". If you have money, fine!
    The crisis and the increase of unemployment has all been caused by capitalism.

    Power corrupts people. I am sure most of you would have joined the nazi cause if you lived in Germany around WW2.
  5. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Because of the founder of the movement being prone to both of those?
  6. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Y'know, I thought that I couldn't be surprised by anything I read on the internet these days.


    I was wrong.
  7. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 5, 2012
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    You seem to have gotten it.
    The leaders are to blame, not the political form!
  8. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The form was created, from the start, with those ideas in mind, though.
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  9. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 5, 2012
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    A lot of people who do not know what they are talking about just jump to conclusions.
    So many people just describe things as "bad" and other things as "good".
    I live in Belgium. Members of my family lived through WW2. Some part of my family fled to Britain. Some part of my family stayed here and just continued their normal lives. Another part of my family was said to have joined a resistance movement, but I think those stories have become exagerated.
    We have not heard from the family members that fled to London up till now.

    A lot of people who do not live in countries such as England, France or Belgium are so shortsighted about things concerning WW2.
    The countries that have never been occupied by the Germans should stop making their minds up about things such as nazism.
  10. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    They did not create nazism and say 'hey, we are going to exterminate other races and attack other countries'.
    People who think that are fools...
    No disrespect.
    Last edited by General Immodet, Jan 25, 2013
  11. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    And I'm not entirely sure you understand what we are saying. The founders of the political form bended towards these evil traits. That pushed for this political form in order to make doing these things easier and more accessible. I again go back to my eggs and a basket analogy. It is one thing when there are a few rotten eggs. That would be like a religious in a religion stealing money from his congregation. Not every religious leader in a particular faith is like that. However, what can you expect when all the eggs in the basket are bad? What common trait do they all seem to have that has bonded them together?

    You say it is the political leaders that are bad rather than there political platform. Some of these political leaders were the ones who created these political platforms. Frankly you cannot separate nazism with the evil, because the only times history has seen nazism has been connected with those evil practices. It condones them. it lends to them. it even encourages them. It is the natural end result. Anything with a natural end result like genocide cannot possibly be good.

    Also, not every person living in Germany agreed with the Nazi standard because they did see what it was being used for, and saw it as evil.
    Last edited by Fleab88, Jan 25, 2013
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  12. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Um, yes they did. The expansionist/racial superiority tenants of Nazism were there from the beginning. In any case, this thread is getting badly off-topic, and may I suggest tell everyone to get away from apologizing for genocide and back into the Empire?
  13. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5


    Because it takes up something like half of his party doctrine?


    Each government has state run property (yes even the “no we are not socialist in the slightest! Don’t use that dirty word here!” USA which has ~39% of GDP be government spending) or there would not be a need for it to even exist, it will just vary by extend and function and there is no government that doesn’t discriminate against certain groups, or at least has people that feel the government is unjustly discriminating against them ;).
  14. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    Not all the egs in the basket were bad egs.
    1) Even people such as Hitler, Himmler and Goebbels once had good intentions. Power corrupted them.
    2) What do you say of people such as Admiral Donitz?
    3) If you lived there, you would have joined the movement. People believed they were doing good things. They were indoctrinated.
    In that time, there was a lot of poverty. The German people only wanted to feed their families.
    The other European countries refused to give Germany any colonies. The US virtually created the crisis.
    The Jew often had high positions (for example in banks) while the standard German guy was dying of impoverty.
    The Jews were hated worldwide at the time. People such as Ford and Disney were antisemetic as well.
    Many Germans were still anger about their defeat during WW1. The actions take right after it radicalized them.
    4) If the Germans had won the war, the Germans would have been the good guys and the allied forces would have been the bad guys.
    If you were a supporter of Goebbels, Goebbels would have been the good egg.
    5) People such as Hitler had charisma. People tend to follow orders. See the Milgram Experiment.

    => You just cannot condemn them all.
    => The leaders are to blame, not the people or the political form.
    => There were a lot of collaborators in the countries that were occupied. So what do we learn about that? People always try to achieve what they want and they will go to great lenghts to get it.
  15. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    Agreed! We are spamming this thread.
    Just wanted to point out it is a bit shortsighted to immediately link nazism with anti-alien feeling.
    Anti-alien feeling is about racism. It has nothing to do with nazism.
  16. krtmd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    Uh, since I have Jewish heritage on my mother's side, I'm thinking not so much.

    Seriously, I suggest you stop before you really put your foot in it.
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  17. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    Is it possible to ban someone for lauding Nazism?
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  18. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
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    Well, thank you very much... I have been trying to be polite. I do not want to disrespect others.
    I just tried to make a point.

    Well, I agree I was spamming this thread, so I apologize for that.
    From now on, you are the ones who keep dragging it on!
    Last edited by General Immodet, Jan 25, 2013
  19. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Going back to the original topic- what defines the idea as good or bad?

    There could be quite a few hypotheses using that phrasing.

    "It was a good idea because it helped sell more books"
    "It was a good idea because it provided an in-universe reason for Rebel alien soldiers being seen in RoTJ but no Imperial ones"

    "It was a bad idea because it ignored the aliens we see leading Imperial forces, in Marvel Star Wars"
    "It was a bad idea because it pandered to the modern dislike of prejudices"

    And so forth.
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  20. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 5, 2012
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    I am sorry if I have offended you.
  21. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    Your point was an idiotic point. And one that willfully ignores the driving ideology of the founder, Adolf Hitler, of National Socialism. Lest we forget Mein Kampf.
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  22. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    Everyone should just drop it. People aren't changing their minds on this. If general Imodet is so desperate to get the last word in in the argument then let him. Back into the actual discussion, my personal opinion is that it evolved over time. I do believe the basic concept was there in the films, but the EU took that concept and really centralized it to make it a big focal point. If anything the argument can certainly be made that the movies and books are relatively in harmony over this topic.

    I personally don;t think it was an issue with Palpatine, but he saw the benefit in feeding into that agenda and using that weakness in others to further his own ends. The idea is definitely picked up on in the movies in pocket subplots when you look at things like the Gungans with the humans on Naboo.
  23. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    And Palpatine comes from Naboo.

    I could see him being smart enough to realize that not using talented aliens is irrational. And the EU does support that idea, with Thrawn and many others.

    But at the same time- hatred in general is a cornerstone of the Dark side:

    "Only your hatred can destroy me"
    "Your hate has made you powerful"

    And so on.

    Palpatine might hate aliens simply in order to make himself more powerful (with hating everyone being too impractical and bad for morale).
  24. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    I forgot to reply to something Jello said earlier:

    While I understand your point about the racism being lazy (to an extent - one could conceivably make that argument about having the Empire blow up planets too), I would like to point out I doubt it was done simply for that reason alone - after all, the Empire is rather unique amongst important Star Wars villains for its discriminatory policies - the Sith proper, the CIS, the Hutts, and the Mandolorians are all rather inclusive kinds of evil.
  25. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    All of those came afterwards, OOU. Moreover, at least two iterations of the Sith -- Revan's Sith and TOR's Sith -- ape the whole human superiority thing, with even less in-universe justification. The whole reason we went down this whole Nazi rabbithole was because of the whole space Nazis thing -- because Imperials dress like Nazis they must act like them too. Now, given that there is original authorial intent to make the Empire into space Nazis, I don't really object to EU inventions like COMPNOR or anti-alien policies per se. My argument was more that, in terms of the movies alone, both sides were human-only for 2/3rds of the series but the Imperials had to be the racists because, y'know, they're bad guys. That's what I thought was lazy.

    I have much less objection to the Empire == space Nazi thing than I do to the Empire == Republicans thing though, because the former was there from the start and makes sense in-universe. When we have TCW making Palpatine deregulate industries (which doesn't even make sense given his goals of taking over everything) and we have Luceno going on and on about Homeworld Security and how Sith rituals are like the Bohemian Grove etc etc, then I really feel like it's lazy. Because the Empire is already space Nazis, making them space Republicans... doesn't add value, it just lets you grind a political axe.

    So basically yes, I am more or less fine with the Empire being portrayed as having anti-alien policies with the caveat that it's a reference to the Nazis: it's an ideological part of the New Order that both involves Core World atavism as well as the anti-alien populism stirred up during the Clone Wars, but it's not strictly speaking a de jure policy nor uniformly followed among all Imperials of substance. COMPNOR did have its enemies, after all.

    Concededly, even the people of quality in the Empire tended to look down on aliens (witness the treatment Thrawn got at Court) but that's probably just because aliens are smelly... :p