1. A Message For Everyone:

    TCW vs. Rebels debates are not allowed in the Television forum. As in, discussions that descend into TCW/Rebels bashing/gushing will be subject to Mod action. Contrasting the themes, story lines, characters, etc. between the shows is allowed (welcomed, even). "Versus" debates/arguments, however, are a deal-breaker.
  2. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Rebels Anti-non-human speciesism in the Empire in SW:R

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Darth Valkyrus, Nov 17, 2013.



  1. Empire is riddled with speciesism, and it flows straight from Palpatine on down

    21 vote(s)
  2. Empire is riddled with speciesism, but Palps doesn't actively push it, it comes from the Moffs etc.

    25 vote(s)
  3. Empire has some speciesism, but much less, or less widespread, than implied by the EU

    12 vote(s)
  4. Empire has no observable speciesism. Total retcon of that element of the EU.

    10 vote(s)
  1. Darth Valkyrus

    Darth Valkyrus Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 12, 2013
    How would you like to see that handled?
  2. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

    Oct 19, 2013
    The only reason I could see that they would retcon it for would be that Disney would think it could "promote racism" which I really don't think is true at all. Don't get me wrong, racism is bad, but this is fiction, and I'd rather stick to what the EU tells us. And, from what I see, it's not the EU, in the movies we see no aliens in the Empire, which, admittedly, may be due to budget issues.
    podjazd likes this.
  3. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 28, 2003
    For the same reason that Darth Valkyrus mentioned in the other thread, aliens are not some small minority that can be easily oppressed. Humans - according to the EU - are the most populous species in the galaxy, more numerous than any single alien species, but add up all alien species and I'd think humanity is outnumbered quite a bit. Look at the makeup of the senate. In ANH, certain characters are concerned about the rising tide of pro-Rebel sentiment in the Senate. I cannot honestly think that Palpatine would be dumb enough to go before the senate and try to pass laws to strip the rights of all of those non-human species represented therein when according to Tagge he needs to use the senate bureaucracy to maintain control (pre-Death Star).

    Certain species might be oppressed, like wookiees. But I definitely do not think that human supremacy should be supported by the government and I definitely do not think that Palpatine himself should be depicted as prejudiced. In the films he seems most concerned with who can do the best job, regardless of species. I can't see him viewing humanity as inherently superior.
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    If it happens, I'd say any species that was known to be friendly towards the Separatists or the Jedi would be oppressed.

    And I can't imagine Palpatine hiring a Wookiee to do anything, I can't see him spending his time on any species that didn't speak Basic, unless he spoke Shyriwook himself.

    As far as the show "promoting racism," there are plenty of children's books about segregation, the Civil Rights Movement and MLK. Acknowledging that racism exists and putting it in a story does not equal promoting it.
  5. VanishingReality

    VanishingReality Jedi Knight star 3

    Apr 21, 2013
    The stormtroopers represent conformity just as much as the Droid Army did in TCW. I would like the rebels to be supported by interesting, creative and technologically primitive species such as the Ewoks that I'm sure the Empire oppresses or ignores. I expect it to be extremely subtle and casual, and actually showing the viewer the Empire's oppression rather than saying "oh laws were passed, etc"

    Now that the Inquistor seems to be an alien of some kind, I wonder how much they would retcon it. Although force-users likely live outside normal society in the Rebellion era. Since Emperor's hands are probably expected to blend in, I'm expecting them to be human (And the Royal Guards seem human as well). This is why I'm thinking the Inquisitor might turn out to be working for Vader or an entirely different occupation.
  6. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Aug 15, 2011
    Eh, I consider Palpatine above, as he sees it, petty speciesim; he will use anyone to further his plans, as having Sly Moore and Mas Amedda under his employ shows.

    If the humans which form the majority of the Imperial apparatus are prejudiced against others species, I can't see Palpatine objecting, though. Palpatine feeds off the galaxy's fear and antagonism - why would he interfere?
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
  8. Mzukiller

    Mzukiller Jedi Padawan star 2

    Sep 5, 2012
    I don't even know how to feel about speciesism in Star Wars. I mean doesn't uniting to hate another species entirely mean that all of humanity is on the same side?
    Dark Lord Tarkas likes this.
  9. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

    Sep 14, 2013
  10. Kenobi098

    Kenobi098 Jedi Knight star 1

    May 8, 2013
    has some but not as prevalent as previous eu. Palpatine certainly was not. Trained by a Munn, first apprentice was a Zabrak Human hybrid. Thrawn was promoted to Grand Admiral etc. But Imps like Tarkin, Taggee, Motti, etc where defininitely into the whole High Human culture. and many average Core world human were too.
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  11. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 28, 2003
    I think the concept of speciesism was fine prior to the conclusion of the PT.

    But now it's like saying that Hitler was totally cool with minorities and that it was only his subordinates that were racists and so he just went along with it. Though he's still putting Slavic and Jewish people in high ranking positions.

    It's ludicrous.

    An authoritarian regime differs from an absolute monarchy in that the power of rule in the latter case extends only to the political realm, whereas in authoritarian regimes, influence permeates society -- education, culture, social groups, etc.

    The Empire always seemed like an authoritarian regime, and with Palpatine at the top, I see no reason for him to advocate the superiority of humanity if he did not believe it (and it's not just going to happen without his consent -- Hitler went to great lengths to use propaganda to get people to think the way he wanted them to). And if he did believe it, then people like Thrawn and this inquisitor should not be in positions in power if he believes that they are inherently inferior to humanity. And if Palpatine is above any kind of prejudice but is just along for the ride when it comes to a wave of speciesist sentiments among his subordinates, then it's really counter productive to put aliens in positions of authority when you KNOW that the subordinates are not going to be able to respect that person based on prejudices.

    That's like appointing a Jewish person to the head of the SS.

    **And to my knowledge, Hitler did have to play around with his definition of who was and was not Jewish, since iirc, a lot of Nazis that did not consider themselves Jewish still had Jewish ancestors, but I think cultural identification differs quite a bit from what can clearly be seen as differences between species**

    In an authoritarian regime, Palpatine has the resources to skew public perceptions any which way he wants. If he doesn't want his population to be prejudiced, then there's no reason for him to go along with it. If the government is endorsing Human High Culture, then it is only logical that Palpatine endorses it and wants that to be a policy.

    But all throughout the PT we see Palpatine work with aliens and we never so much as get a hint at any kind of prejudice directed at non-humans.
    QuangoFett and Dark Lord Tarkas like this.
  12. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 5, 2011
    It's only ludicrous if you compare them and insist that everything be exactly the same.

    By the way, Hitler could have had absolutely zero prejudice toward anyone and he could have done things exactly the same way. How? Anti-Semitism was already rampant among his population, Hitler didn't do anything except stir up and manipulate what was already there, he didn't create it out of thin air.

    Really, one could say that Hitler wasn't prejudiced at all, that he was just a really good actor, like Palpatine, taking advantage of the situation, like Palpatine. It's not true, but Hitler was a real person on Earth, not a fictional character in a fictional galaxy that requires a freighter load of suspension of disbelief.

    Really, you see no reason for the father of all lies to advocate something he doesn't believe?

    We see him do it in the movies constantly.

    Thrawn can be in a position of power because Palpatine says so. Besides, in the EU Thrawn is a "secret" Grand Admiral and is sent off to the Unknown Regions where he won't be seen.

    The Inquisitor can meet any criticism with a demonstration of his superiority, the Force.

    They'll respect that person or die, that's how things go in the Empire.

    Motti has prejudice toward Vader's "sorcerer's ways", yet Palpatine put Vader in a position of authority.

    Dictators love nepotism, despite the prejudice that it fosters among people outside the family.

    Really, give it the tiniest suspension of disbelief.

    Well, why doesn't Palpatine want his population to be prejudiced? Why can't he endorse it? Why can't he want that to be a policy?

    To pre-empt you a bit, in Palpatine's mind he has unlimited power and the aliens pose no threat. What threat do the aliens pose? They don't have a fleet or the means to build one of any consequence. Any threat they can muster can be pounded by a fleet of Star Destroyers.

    The Rebellion has to happen, it has to get big and it has to win in the end. Palpatine can't make all the right moves, he has to make some mistakes and lose in the end.

    This isn't the PT era, things have changed. This isn't the Old Republic, before the dark times, before the Empire, it's the Empire at its worst.

    Notice how Sly Moore and Mas Amedda are gone and these guys are hanging out with Palpatine.
    All humans.

    I can certainly buy prejudice against non-humans in the Empire.

    Besides, we've probably already put more time and thought into this in this very thread than anyone at Rebels will. It's more likely that someone will go "maybe the Empire is racist!" and everyone else will either agree or disagree and that will be the end of it. If they agree, they'll run with it and probably make one of their half-assed, poorly thought out, poorly written moronic episodes...if they don't we won't see it.
    Skywalker Thing and TaradosGon like this.
  13. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 28, 2003

    I'll agree to disagree, since I've pretty much exhausted my entire argument and still just don't see why Palpatine would want to endorse humanocentrism if he's of the belief that power should go to the person that can do the job the best (so why bottleneck his options?)

    But just because I disagree doesn't mean I can't appreciate a well constructed response.

    And I anticipate that you're right about how much thought is given, and I figure they'll follow the EU's lead in that matter.
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    It's more that not all stormtroopers are clones- in the Rebels era and beyond, there are plenty of volunteer stormtroopers as well.
    Contessa and Mia Mesharad like this.
  15. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

    Sep 14, 2013
    Hidalgo made it sound like no stormtroopers are clones.
    Skywalker Thing likes this.
  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    Maybe- but given the sheer amount of evidence in the EU in favour of some clones being produced all the way to the OT era- I figure that, at least in the context of an EU Star Wars, they should be kept in.
    Esg and purplerain like this.
  17. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

    Sep 14, 2013
    I agree.
  18. SeparatistFan

    SeparatistFan Jedi Knight star 2

    Oct 19, 2012
    I hope that this part of the EU gets ignored, it would be boring for all the Imperials to be human, plus I agree with what was said further up in this thread it would make no sense for Palpatine to treat all of the aliens unfairly since humans would be greatly outnumbered by the aliens if it came to war. I'd be fine with seeing some Separatist species getting mistreated by the Empire that would make sense. I could see Paplatine wanting some alien imperial generals anyway since other Imperials would be more scared of fierce species like the Trandoshans over most humans, so they would be more easy to keep in line.
    purplerain likes this.
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    The later EU tended to have the anti-alien prejudice be fairly dilute- more "glass ceiling" than "no aliens in the military- ever."
    Contessa likes this.
  20. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 28, 2003
    I could see more unofficial prejudice. Like if Palpatine leaves the day to day runnings of the Imperial military to Admirals and Generals that do their own recruitment and appoint promote and demote individuals on their own accord (which I suspect is the case, I can't imagine Palpatine is micromanaging all that).

    So yeah, if certain individual moffs are speciesist and unwilling to see aliens climb the ranks, then I can see them unofficially keeping aliens out of the military ranks, or at least the ranks subordinate to that particular moff (perhaps another moff is more tolerant of other species).

    But I can't see the government actually codifying a policy that humans are superior or that bans them from the military.

    If for no other reason than it would tick off the senate. And you can raise the argument that the Senate is powerless, but then again it is dissatisfied senators like Bail Organa that helped start the Rebellion. And when Vader attacks Leia's ship, Leia threatens Vader that the Senate would not stand for it and a commander tells Vader that holding Leia is dangerous because it could generate sympathy for the rebellion in the senate, and thus Vader tiptoes around the senate by trying to make it look like the ship ran into trouble and was destroyed, to cover up that she was being held by the Imperial military.

    The senate's political authority within the Empire may or may not have been negligible, but the senate was clearly an entity that the military could not just blatantly ignore (not without covering up their activities).

    Unless the senate itself sometime between ROTS and ANH became completely represented by humans, I can't imagine why Palpatine would allow government sanctioned anti-alien policies, when the goal is to NOT anger the senate. The senate is still full of wealthy, influential individuals that could be liable to throw their support in with the rebellion if you don't keep them happy.
  21. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 12, 2012
    I think it's really likely they're going to keep the anti-human sentiment if only because it'd be an easy way to make the Imps baddies in the series and give more motivation to the scrappy band of Rebels. Also lots of teachable moments, which Disney TV execs would probably like. "Look! The show is educational!"
  22. Narutakikun

    Narutakikun Jedi Knight star 4

    Nov 8, 2012
    Anti-non-human speciesist is a code word for anti-human speciesism!
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  23. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Jan 3, 2013
    I almost want to see it avoided just to spite the EU. It's always annoyed me how the whole thing was conjured up almost from nothing pretty much entirely as a way of making the Empire more gratuitously evil (and I say this as someone who is not remotely an Imperial sympathizer).
  24. GreatBeyonder

    GreatBeyonder Jedi Youngling star 1

    Dec 6, 2013
    I'm of the opinion the only reason why the Empire doesn't have aliens is because GL wasn't a billionaire at the time. Look at the first two movies. Look how racist the rebels are! Look how the racists have no alien members or even black people! Look how the racists refuse to give Chewie a medal! Suddenly, in RotJ they have aliens. Did they stop being racist? Or did GL just get better costumes?

    Judging either group's biases by the number of humans, or lack thereof, is a terrible idea, and if there was one massive retcon I wish they'd make, its the idea the Galactic Empire is stupid enough to try to rule the galaxy with the support of one race alone....
    darklordoftech and TaradosGon like this.

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jun 8, 2002
    I don't want to get into this topic because it'll only piss people off.