Full Series Anti-non-human speciesism in the Empire in SW:R

Apparently there is an angel called Zebulon mentioned in something called The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra:-

Zebuleon is an angel mentioned in the Greek Apocalypse of Ezra whose name was revealed to Esdras as one of the nine angels who will govern "at the end of the world." The nine angels mentioned are: Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, Raphael, Gabuthelon, Aker, Arphugitonos,Beburos, and Zebuleon.[1] Zebuleon is not considered an archangel and is a non-canonical figure.[2]

The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra, also known as The Word and Revelation of Esdras, is a pseudepigraphal work written in the name of the biblical scribe Ezra. It survived in only two Greek copies and is dated between the 2nd century and the 9th century AD.
According to R. H. Charles, the text of the Greek Apocalypse of Ezra was influenced by the book of 2 Esdras. The extant version of the Greek Apocalypse is thought to have undergone extensive reworking, if not having been totally written by, Christian editors, mentioning the Apostles Paul and John, King Herod, etc.
Like much apocalyptic literature, the Apocalypse of Ezra portrays its author as being granted visions of heaven and of hell, where the punishments meted out to sinners are witnessed in detail. Ezra is first described as visiting heaven, where Ezra raises a question oftheodicy - he asks God why humans were given the ability to sin. Unusually, although God argues that humans are to blame if they do sin, due to their having free will, the text has Ezra respond that ultimately the fall of man must be up to God, particularly since God created both Eve and the Serpent and the forbidden tree. Ezra goes on to accuse God of having an appalling idea of justice, to which God doesn't respond, even when Ezra petitions on behalf of sinners. After his petitions and argument with God, Ezra is shown a vision of the tortures in hell, as well as the Antichrist. Finally, when Ezra protests that no one is without sin and hence none will escape such torture, God reveals that he endured the cross in order to save mankind, forgive those who believe, and vanquish death.


For that matter, it seems The Tribe of Zebulun is one of the tribes of Israel.

In the ancient Song of Deborah, Zebulun are described as sending to the battle those that handle the sopher shebet. Traditionally this has been interpreted as referring to therod of the scribe, an object that in Assyrian monuments was a stylus of wood or metal used to inscribe clay tablets, or to write on papyrus; as such, the ones who wielded it would have been the associates/assistants of lawgivers.[3] Consequently, in Jewish tradition, the tribe of Zebulun was considered to have a symbiotic relationship with the tribe of Issachar, its neighbour and a tribe that traditionally was seen as having many scholars, whereby Zebulun would financially support Issachar's devotion to study and teaching of the Torah, in exchange for a share of the spiritual reward from such learning; the terms Issachar and Zebulun came to be used by Jews for anyone engaged in such a relationship. More recent scholarship, as expressed for example in translations such as the Revised Standard Version, instead render the description in the Song of Deborah of the people sent to battle by Zebulun as those who handle the marshal's staff; in other words, Zebulun had simply sent military officers.

 

Erik_B

I'm going to move my post on the subject of names and your post about inspiration for the name Zeb to the Rebels thread for further discussion.

 

Yeah, it's not like the blacks were the majority in South Africa.

 

^Majority rules in democracy and Empire is not really democratic anymore isn't it? Ruling over a majority is far from impossible if majority has no political power. Besides humans are obviously the most common sentient species in GFFA.

 

I see how a minority population can oppress a majority, but I can't get around why Palpatine would want to do this or why anyone else would really. There were 1,000 years of peace and cooperation within the Republic between aliens and humans, on the capital world alone, there wasn't an obvious human majority to me. The aliens were everywhere and seemed tolerated. Where did this human supremacy come from? I think blaming the Clone Wars on aliens isn't really believable given that a human Jedi led the CIS, and especially when there was like zero patriotism at the time, let alone a strong sense of human superiority.

If they go the route of human supremacy, I hope it's shown on screen how it came about. Not leaving the transition a blank page as though what happened were obvious, because I see no indication of anti-alien sentiment at the end of ROTS at all.

IF they go the route of a speciesist regime for Rebels, I just want to see what the justification for it is. Mas Amedda seemed to always be at Palpatine's side in the prequel era, but by the time of ROTJ he has human advisers (the "hat gang"). So if Amedda got passed over in favor of these new guys and they are the ones whispering justifications for anti-alien policies into Palpatine's ear to help their own agenda of getting Amedda out of the way while giving Palpatine a steady supply of slaves or some such, that could be acceptable, but it depends on how they sell the idea, and I want to see it.

 

I'm not sure- but in Rogue Planet, Tarkin is already saying "Humans are the future".

Palpatine says in Book Of Sith that he plans on making use of existing alien-dislike - in order to strengthen his hold:

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page 155:​

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Indeed, my subjects will fear me, but that fear will lead to anger. And anger will make my Empire strong. However, anger directed toward authority is dangerous. It must be channelled toward other, weaker subjects. By encouraging fear of the exotic and unusual, a regime can be strengthened. The Empire has uniformity in its symbols and its ideology, which makes it easier to shame those who do not belong and to make them the objects of a galaxy's rage.​

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The Republic's alien species are the simplest targets. Most humans of the Core already despise looking into their multiple eyes or listening to their clicking, buzzing languages. They hate their bewildering customs and their sharp stench. Coruscant is a seething boil of species, but humans far outnumber any other species. It is an ideal place to sow seeds of suspicion - to instill the idea that those who do not conform are the enemy and enemies must be destroyed. By making the powerless a target, the people will not threaten the one in power. On the contrary, the ruler will be venerated as a hero for exposing the weak.​

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(later annotations by Palpatine)​

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Much progress has been made since the time of this writing. Coruscant's mixed species have been walled into Invisible Sectors, and I have rescinded the Republic's slavery ban.​

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My Imperial Security Bureau starts the rumours, but they spread on their own.​

 

There wasn't equal power.

In the Galactic Republic, you see that all alien species have similar levels of representation in the senate.

Now, say Palpatine (whose master was an "alien" as are many of his friends and aides), starts implementing human centric power; aliens are second rate.

You do know what would happen then?

Imagine the CIS, just...taken to 11. The human centric Empire would last all of..., not long.

 

Interesting note:
If stormies are not clones and Empire is not speciesistic there should be alien stormtroopers as well. At least most near-humans and some humanoids even fit in the same armor (even Duros as seen in Cargo of Doom and Children of the Force) So maybe Empire in the movies is not fully human at all. They could also make armors that fit gungans, wookiees, ewoks, hutts, talz and dugs etc.

But one of the posters used for promoting Rebels is actually strikingly speciesistic:



That poster actually says that those who cannot use standard humanoid headgear are not welcome to defend the Empire- if that's not speciesistic I don't know what is...
There may not be "we hate alien scum" kind of speciesism in the Empire but that poster certainly bad enough to repel all patriotic aliens from the army and therefore support speciesism.

 

Again, though, that's not onscreen material. The whole idea of there being some kind of existing human supremacist sentiment in the Core that Palpatine tapped into is a product of the EU.

 

I'd really like to see that picture but your link is broke, can you find one that works?

 

Except, unlike the CIS, they'd have zero military power, which is entirely in the hands of the Empire.

But, maybe they could build up some firepower eventually....and since there has to be an armed Rebellion against the Empire....and since the Empire has to lose....

 

That would be ridiculous to expect the Empire to mass produce armor, weapons, cockpits, control panels, etc. to accommodate the physiology of the thousands of species in the galaxy.

Also, Pablo mentions in the NYCC Rebels Panel that the Empire during this time is expanding into new territories and says that the Empire does not have the resources to conquer all of these planets via military force, but instead wins people over by promising to create jobs, etc. And says that the Empire then has access to planetary resources as well as the manpower pool to recruit stormtroopers, pilots, or workers for factories.

The aliens might go work in the factories or maybe there are some alien reserves for the Imperial military. But Pablo paints the picture of the Empire encountering these planets and winning them over peacefully. Not the Empire showing up on an alien world, and rounding them up as slaves because they are inferior.

He does however point out that as industry is built on new planets to support the regime, that at first everything goes good, but then quotas keep increasing and increasing, putting a lot of strain on the population to support the Empire.

In which case "slavery" might exist in a de facto sense. Such as the Empire setting up industries on alien worlds, the aliens being happy as they all have jobs, but then over time are more and more oppressed in the work place such that they are working insane hours and barely managing to scrape by, while legally remaining free.

 

I believe the first onscreen hint was "Where are you taking this … thing?"

From that (and maybe the Jawa Massacre) Star Wars Poster Monthy extrapolated to a stormtrooper belief that "the only good alien is a dead alien".

And after RoTJ gave us alien rebels (but not alien Imperials) West End Games extrapolated to a general distrust of aliens.

 

Not really if aliens are welcome to imperial military, if they produce only humanoid armors etc. they are speciesistic.Most SW-species appear to be rare. But twi'leks at least are so common that there should be a lot of twi'lek stormtroopers, same with rodians. So if there is no resources to make armors for thousands of species they should at least make them for all the common ones, not only humans.

Also there is no point to make certain military units fully rodian or fully human if species are treated equally(that sounds like apartheid)- all units should be mixed more based on their strengths as soldier than their physical appearance.

Maybe this


or just click the link: If the headgear fits...

I actually saw quite a lot of speciesism in TCW. Lok Durd was obviously thinking that lurmens were inferior. He even says that they were surprisingly smart (so they appear stupid). Then treatment of geonosians with flamethrowers and all was very cruel. They wouldn't have use flamethrowers against human separatists for sure. Then entire Trespass episode and Mon Cala arc plus Shadow Warrior all were about conflicts between species.

Originally A Friend in Need had "yakface-aliens" being mistreated by Death Watch, but they were changed to be humans so audience could "empathize" them better. This is actually quite sad that they think audience is unable to empathize aliens.

 

Nope, they'd have more since they're not being held back to keep parity with the GR.

Though ironically, these humanoids are the ones giving the Empire its actual power (which is why they'd be able to build up so much). Think about it. The Empire will still be made up of all the same systems, alien systems, it's just that the senate is abolished to allow for quicker actions to be taken (no time for debate!), via appointed governors (which we don't know the species of, but it'd make more sense that it'd be a member of the species that controls a sector, just one favored by Palpatine; this circumvents the democratic process of a majority vote, hence the Rebellion), which would be by Palpatine, whom isn't racist as far as what's shown (in fact, it's the opposite). If Palpatine's Empire started making these very species that make the Empire into second-rate citizens..., the Rebellion would be quite a bit more profound than what we see (which is small).

The Rebels make up a small portion of the former Republic as far as we see. I doubt even Mon Cala itself is aligned with the rebels (it couldn't hold out from assault), rather radicals stealing vessels and taking them with them.

Then you have the CIS designed and constructed Death Star, which is now the Empire's flagship to "keep the peace and order", so no more secession, no more political bickering, no more rebellion, and relative safety and prosperity for all. In other words, control. Which is what the Sith tend to want (control is power).

Something as low as racism doesn't seem all that grand a thing when dealing with galactic politics and quasi-supernatural powers.

 

I think that Empire basically just uses divide and rule tactics. And it makes perfect sense that on some sectors this actually makes things like speciesism, racism, enslavement etc. very useful tools for the Palpatine. This has nothing to do with him being Speciesist or Empire being humanocentric in any way.

But for example Kashyyyk has long-standing rivalry between trandoshans and wookiees (as also established in TCW) that has speciesistic nature- these two species simply hate each other. Empire naturally uses this situation for it's advantage and wookiees are enslaved-> trandos support the Empire and wookiees are enslaved-> sector is peaceful and imperial-aligned, with trandos backed up by the empire and wookiees are send to work for the empire all over the galaxy. Separated from each other they cannot rebel in organized manner and slave business brings money and workforce for everyone. (except slaves naturally)
Unethical but good business. Senators like Bail Organa or Mon Mothma find it disgusting, but those like Lott Dod, Nix Card or even Orn Free Taa would probably accept such arrangement.

Same works with Naboo for example. Gungans have army of their own and that's enough to prove they are potential threat for peace on Naboo. Naboo have peace with gungans, but they have still surely some problems and a long history of conflict. What would be better way to ensure "peaceful" Naboo than subjugate gungans. Besides as hated as gungans are out-of-the-universe it seems possible that humans in-universe also think that they are bit dumb.

This is the sort of speciesism I would like to see. No universal hate for non-humans but supporting the local problems is what makes the Empire invincible. As long as sectors are having internal problems (like speciesism), they cannot unite against Coruscant and Palpatine. Then ensuring imperial alliance to another side of the conflict makes it sure that Empire stays peaceful and conflict stays as local rebellions that are easy to crush.

 

We live in a world where many militaries exclude women from combat roles. Sexist? Yes. But few are going to make the blanket statement that all of these governments are sexist and oppressive based on this alone. The policy is attacked as sexist all the time, but generally isn't blanketed to the regime as a whole, let alone leading to rebellion or emigration.

Aliens might be excluded from combat roles. We never saw the Empire outside of the military. Had we not seen the Republic senate, we might have thought that the Republic was pro-human/anti-alien too, since there were no aliens serving in the military, excluding Jedi which somewhat fell outside of the Republic structure (they had their own court and everything).

Maybe the aliens, like women during WWII were the patriots working in the factories.

The Republic seemed like it was going bankrupt at any given time after a few years of manufacturing clones. What makes you think that the logistics of creating custom equipment and starfighters tailored to thousands of different species are practical? It's easy to criticize, because our society is limited to one planet with one sentient species sharing a common physiology. But Kuat Drive Yards and all the various military manufacturers out there likely are not going to spend the money to not only build multi-billion credit craft, but then make countless variations so as not to be speciesist and to accommodate the less human-like species out there. It's cheaper to standardize equipment. As I said, maybe there may be more poorly outfitted alien reserves/planetary militias or some such as there were in TCW. But even in the Republic era, all commissioned naval officers were human, in TCW the same as ROTS (at the very end). Was the Republic speciesist? Where was the outcry from the senate which was largely alien?

And all naval officers seemed to be "British" which I've heard is supposed to represent the accent of the core worlds. So not only is the Empire "speciesist," but if we're going to go there, then we might as well say that it is both racist too (no people of color in the Empire) and not only that, but anyone in a position of power was from the core worlds, while those that weren't (basing this off accent) would be left as foot soldiers - even if they were human. And while arguments have been made in Palpatine's defense for being speciesist, nobody argues that he was a white supremacist. Why not?

Did he look at the Delegation that brought the petition to his attention, notice they were all women and/or non-white, and then mumble something sexist/racist before passing a policy that there's no blacks allowed in the Imperial military?

But we see that the Empire does make use of aliens. The first alien we ever saw aligned to either the Rebellion or Empire was working for the Empire. Because the Empire didn't hesitate to hire Garindan.

And there were alien bounty hunters, and those aliens didn't hesitate to work for the Empire. And the Empire didn't hesitate to accept them.

The Jawas being killed is not speciesist at all IMO. The stormtroopers were eliminating potential witnesses regarding the missing droids carrying the Death Star plans. Hence Owen and Beru were also murdered, and it was implied that Tusken Raiders were too (where else did the stormtroopers get their equipment to plant to frame them?)

And Leia says worse things about Chewbacca than the Imperial officer that refers to him as a "thing," but that is often overlooked.

We also blatantly see an alien as an Inquisitor, which seems to outrank any of these other humans in the military.

Pablo says that the first step to acquiring a planet is to oust the leader - if he/she is not willing to work for the Empire - and replace them with a puppet leader. We have this guy that looks to be an Imperial Agent. Perhaps that's his job? After that, it's all rainbows and butterflies (what Pablo refers to as the "honeymoon period") for awhile before things go sour.

Yes, speciesism was part of the EU, and Weisman makes it sound like they are going to honor the EU for the most part, but from what I heard from Pablo indicates that the Empire is not subjugating anyone or invading their planets with the military. It's a more subtle change of leadership to rulers that are pro-Empire, followed by promises of how the Empire is going to benefit these newly acquired systems, but ultimately with those systems being bogged down as the Empire exploits them heavily as it over expands and needs new personnel, equipment, ships and vehicles NOW.

Some species could be enslaved, and I am not against slavery in a case-by-case basis, such as blaming the Wookiees as Jedi sympathizers following ROTS and enslaving them. But I am not buying into the notion that there are blanket policies being passed by Palpatine to antagonize aliens when the goal is order.

 

Palpatine's goal is, yknow, Unlimited Power.

 

Not quite, per Lucas' words that Palpatine did not see himself as evil, and that he wanted to end the corruption of the senate - which was a good goal - but that the lengths he was going to achieve this aim were absurd and too costly - hence he's evil.

I believe he explains this in the ROTS commentary.

Palpatine wants power, but he also wants order. He wants everyone to fall in line under him and no opposition. Oppressing aliens is worthless.

Pablo calls attention to the fact that when Palpatine declares himself Emperor, it's met with "thunderous applause." He had the popular support. And on top of this, patriotism spikes. Pablo says this has to do with the fact that the Republic was ineffective and corrupt and a lot of people were disillusioned with it, but after Palpatine was granted emergency powers, took control of the situation, and saw the Republic through the war to victory, that support of his regime spiked.

People love him. Humans love him. Aliens love him. People want to be a part of his Empire. So why the hell would he oppress aliens? He's hurting the people that are strengthening his position. There was not rebellion right away, Palpatine didn't need to crush enemies to the Empire under his heel right away. He was a beloved ruler.

At one time the thought of human supremacy made sense, when all we had to go by was the OT. But now with the PT we see that Palpatine's first apprentice was an alien, those closest to him in the senate were aliens, his master (per Lucas) was an alien, a senate composed of thousands of aliens supported him and applauded his ascendancy to the position of Emperor. And it seems completely idiotic for Palpatine to start cracking down on aliens, when the majority of the population supports him.

 

It ain't the story about how an inspired leader swept away corruption and ushered in a new era of peace and prosperity. It is the story of how the good peoples of the galaxy banded together to depose a tyrant and usher in a new era of peace and prosperity.

So you kinda need a tyrant.

 

...I don't think anyone is questioning that Palpatine is a tyrant.

 

Which has what to do with anything? Being a tyrant doesn't mean you have to direct your tyranny towards aliens specifically.

But between what we see in ROTS and how Pablo describes the Imperials in Rebels at a panel, you would think "they're a bunch of human supremacists" would get brought up, if it was the case. Instead we see an alien Inquisitor and here about how the Empire expands by appearing to be good, then oppressing populations. And the oppression seems to be indiscriminate. The entire presentation was showcasing the villains and what they would be like and who the stormtroopers are, etc. And there's not one, single mention as to the Imperials being prejudiced against aliens. Instead it's about the Empire that was popular and had the support of the majority that then becomes oppressive as conquering the galaxy takes precedence over the interests of the people.

So between Lucas' notes saying that stormtroopers are patriots that love the regime, Pablo saying that the Empire was met with great support and "thunderous applause" (but then again, you can see this for yourself in ROTS), Pablo then talking about the acquisition of planets through unfulfilled promises rather than military conquest, a complete lack of any mention of the Empire being "speciesist," and an alien inquisitor to top it off, I would just as quickly say that you're probably going to be disappointed if you're expecting "muahahaha" Nazi style villains, or at least if you expect the Empire to be presented as overtly evil like that, in universe. It probably still will be that kind of over-the-top evil, but not publicly.

 

Female Stormtroopers existed

 

Sidious would do it because he likes turning people against each other like dogs to keep each other down so he doesn't need to. He likes people struggle or die and gets off to it. most Sith do.

And what do you mean zero patriotism? Seeing a few protests at the Jedi temple doesn't mean he wasn't backed by the majority. IRC a TCW podcast even mentions Palps having a large approval rating by the beginning of the show


The CIS leadership was mostly alien aside from Dooku and he was a former Jedi to most of the public anyways so he fills another slot.

 

Yeah I like the sound of it on a local basis whatever gets the sector to fall in line is what works so if a little specism is going to grease the wheels then go for it.