Lit Any books on Darth Nilhus?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by LordThrawnStark, Mar 11, 2013.

  1. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    That would be the "ruled for twenty years" part. You're free to pit that against any who take a page of Kaan's playbook; the Banites will win.
  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Sith empires that didn't follow RoT:

    Vitiates empire
    Little empires of Odion and co.
    Rakata (sort of, they are really close to Sith)
    Krayts "Empire"
    Naga Sadows Empire

    Sure, some of those didn't rule over the entire galaxy, but on the other hand non of them directly lead to the destruction of the Sith order itself, which is the worst case imaginable.

    Another question: How did all those Banite Sith benefit from Sidious rule? It seems to me they sacrificed their entire lives just so that someone else could have all the power, which is an altruistic and utterly nonsith motivation.
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  3. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

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    Nov 28, 2009
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    The existence of Lumiya, Caedus, Krayt, et al. points to the fact that the Endor debacle didn't destroy the Sith. (Though I honestly wish it would have.) Their success can't remotely compare with that of the Banite order.

    Vitiate, for example, is a colossal failure all things considered: over a millennium of plotting in secrecy with the advantages you speak (numbers, cohesive vision, infrastructure, etc.) and couldn't accomplish much in comparison.

    I'd say it owed more to perspective. They realized, "Hey, unlike the morons who preceded us, how about we commit to something with actual permanence rather than an ill-gotten bid for power." With very few exceptions, the pre-Bane Sith were utterly boring, one-dimensional, and hilariously stupid.
  4. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I'm afraid I don't have the energy to hop back into this conversation tonight, interesting though it is. Maybe tomorrow. I'll just respond to one.

    That's a very illuminating way to look at it. Obviously, I need to read Jedi Vs Sith again; I've actually read POD more recently, and it's screwing up my perception :p
  5. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Sorta. Karpyshyn has Kaan Force-manipulating the Sith into cooperation, true. But the key point is that they are cooperating. SWDBPODANOTOR presents Kaan's Sith as functionally cooperative and equal and has Bane rebelling against that perception of over-cooperation and equality. Which is the opposite of JVS. This is quite apparent in the presentation of the wildfire scene. In JVS, Bane browbeats the Sith Lords into finally working together, uniting their power to create the wildfire sweeping down on the Jedi camp. He fails because the squabbling, glory-hungry Lords break off just as it's working so that they can go out and seek individual glory on the battlefield. In SWDBPODANOTOR, Bane for some reason gets the Sith together to cooperate at this wildfire and then deliberately breaks them up by sowing Force-dissension because cooperation sucks and writing coherent things is for losers when you can just grab random elements from the old story and put them back together in new, nonsensical arrangements.
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  6. Cad Bane Jedi Knight

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Thank you for reminding me why I hate SWDBPODANOTOR so much.
  7. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    It does have the best acronym ever, though.
  8. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    Then that's because Sidious broke the Rule of Two. In that case you can't use the Galactic Empire as an example for the RoT "working".

    What I don't understand: You view all non-Banites as failures, but the Banites, who spend a millennium to rule for mere twenty years as successful?

    Its not like the Banites had much life quality. Like I said before they barely had any personal freedom. Even the goal of galactic dominance was more or less forced upon them by there Banite master.

    In my eyes, anyone who blindly follows the Rule of Two is hilariously stupid (Sidious was smart to do away with that nonsense). So, can you give any arguments why following the rule of two is a smart move?
  9. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    No, I think her spirit did show up. Some Sith Lord was guided by Traya's spirit, but that is all I know of it. I never played TOR, so I cannot tell you whether there were many references to Kreia besides her coming back to guide some Sith Lord.
  10. Something_Exile Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2012
    Twenty years doesn't seem like a very long time to rule but think of what Palpatine did; for the first time ever, the Old Republic that had lasted so many thousands of years, was destroyed utterly. Even after the fall of the Empire, it never recovered; the New Republic was a shadow of the old and didn't survive against the Yuuzhan Vong, leading to the Galactic Alliance. The Old Republic and Old Jedi Order never returned in those forms when the Banite Sith were done with them, and AFAIK that never happened before. The Banite Sith were a lasting change of the Galaxy, changing the status quo completely. That may not be the victory they were going for, but the ramifications and long-lasting effects was pretty damn impressive.

    The Rule of Two was all about achieving goals with subtlety and the results speak for themselves. It wasn't about obvious power, it was about getting inside the enemy and disintegrating it from inside. Vitiate, Ruin and the others never outright defeated the Republic or the Jedi, despite how much war they put it through, but Palpatine, who only existed in the way he did because of the Rule of Two, did.

    And they didn't go extinct. Lumiya, Caedus, Krayt. (I know Krayt isn't a Banite but he wouldn't have ever learned Sith teachings if Palps and Vader hadn't been in power.)
  11. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Sure, one of SWDBPODANOTOR's big issues -- at least as I remember it -- is that it shows that Kaan's methods are working and there's really no need for Bane to oppose him on the grounds that he does. I quite agree, there.

    In JvS, the Sith are ultimately defeated by the Army of Light because Kaan and co. are shortsighted idiots. Bane sighs at their stupidity and wastefulness and gets to work on doing things right.

    In SWDBPODANOTOR they only lose because Bane orders the dispersal of the Sith blockade and manipulates the Brotherhood into destroying itself. (Which, as an aside, completely undercuts the whole "revenge" angle of the prequel trilogy) All, it seems, to shoehorn a literal take on the Sith'ari stuff in.

    It's Kaan who breaks them up in the PoD version of the scene, and Bane is furious:

    "Kaan had broken off the connection, and somehow he had managed to drag the others out along with him, as if he had some hold over their minds. Perhaps he does, Bane thought. Further proof that they all had to be destroyed if the Sith were to be cleansed."

    Though this just again highlights the issue of why Bane feels the Brotherhood needs to be "cleansed" at all, when it should be becoming increasingly clear to him that the equality stuff his POD incarnation despises is a sham, and Kaan is doing a really, really good job of dominating the Order.

    So, yeah, it isn't that Karpyshyn takes the Brotherhood at face value, or presents it as a "lovey-dovey peace party", since he seems to have recognised it for the "screen" it is. The problem that he turns Kaan into a very effective and powerful Dark Lord of the Sith that his Bane should respect and JvS Bane probably would respect.
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  12. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    For what it's worth, I've always seen the Rule of Two as another test for a Sith, the test being when to break it. Every with we know about has tried. Just another chain.
  13. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    The saga of Darth Nihilus. NSFW. Whenever I read anything about Darth Nihilus I think of this.

  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Sorry, I remain thoroughly unimpressed. How are the Banites benefitting from the Republics and Jedis fall? Not. It doesn't matter. Their lives remain ******, they still spent decades living like Hamsters in a wheelcage. The only one who got something out of the plotting was Palpatine and even he then proved himself to be a weak and ineffective ruler and was murdered by Vader.

    All those examples (add Maul to that list) prove that Palpatine wasn't a Banite his whole life. After Plagueis death he dropped the RoT. This fits rather well with his dialogue with Vader in TESB.
  15. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    He does have Dooku killed, instead of going along with what Dooku thought was the plan in the RoTS novel- a Sith triumvirate, with him being in prison for a short time, before the Jedi Order is dissolved and the Sith Army formed.

    And he does order Luke to "take your father's place at my side" instead of making use of both him and Vader.
  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    In Darth Plagueis he has Maul as pupil while being pupil to Plagueis. Also see reasoning below.

    Dooku was offed because he was no more use. Leader of KUS had to die anyway.

    Vaders dialogue in TESB makes no sense if RoT is in place. I doubt Vader would tell his master to the face he wants to replace him.

    Palps wanted Vader dead because Vader was plotting against him and he suspected it. That was probably the real reason as Luke probably isn't as useful as military leader.
  17. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Vader is actually puzzled about Palpatine's acceptance, for that reason, in The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader.

    Still grappling with the Emperor's declaration, he struggled to find words that might discourage his Master's interest in Skywalker. "He is just a boy," Vader said. "Obi-Wan can no longer help him."

    The Emperor believed otherwise. "The Force is strong with him," he said. "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

    The Emperor had not said in so many words that he wanted Luke Skywalker dead, so Vader - needing Skywalker alive to accomplish his goals, took a different tack. "If he could be turned," Vader suggested, "he would become a powerful ally."

    "Yes," the Emperor mused, as if he had not thought of this possibility. Vader could only imagine what the Emperor was thinking. The Sith had long maintained their rule of two: one Master, one apprentice. Even Vader knew there wasn't room enough in the galaxy for three Sith Lords, and yet the Emperor's hooded eyes seemed to sparkle as he said more emphatically, "Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?"

    "He will join us or die, Master," Vader said. He bowed, and the Emperor's hologram faded out.

    Now that the Emperor was interested in Luke Skywalker's fate, Vader knew he had to do everything in his power to find Luke before the Emperor found him.
  18. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
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    As Palpatine himself indeed writes in the Book of Sith:
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  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Jupp, that kind of thinking fits him well.
  20. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    James Luceno's Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader does suggest that Palpatine still somewhat cares about the rule of two- maybe he hasn't formulated his entries in the Book of Sith yet?

    The idea of a Sith order was a corruption of the intent of the ancient Dark Lords. Fortunately, Darth Bane had understood that, and had insisted that only in rare instances should there exist more than two lords, Master and apprentice, at any given time.

    But two were necessary for the perpetuation of the Sith order.

    And so it fell to Sidious to complete Vader's convalescence.
    ...
    Fundamental to Vader's growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.

    Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might gave attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn't made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need to do everything in his power to shake Vader out of his despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.

    Even at Sidious's own peril...
  21. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I'd guess that Palpatine has some degree of respect for the foundation in which his Empire is built, but on practice, he has no intention of following the Rule of Two.
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  22. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    He might be seeking to rule forever- but that doesn't stop him from training one apprentice (and only one) in most of his Sith secrets- while never giving any of his other darksider minions anywhere near as much.
  23. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I believe he probably just finds wisdom in the notion of not training an army of individuals who are more likely to fight each other than in actually upholding order.
  24. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Yup. Yet, should the worst happen and he not discover how to live forever- he needs a successor- someone to carry on the Sith tradition. And he picked Vader. At least till Luke turned up.
  25. Something_Exile Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2012
    No offense intended but what would impress you? It really does matter. If you look at the bigger picture, they brought down an establishment that has existed powerfully for 25,000 years without ever falling. Sure it got beaten up a lot but it never went down. 25,000 years. Just think how long that is. And the Banite Sith took it down, completely and utterly. The first ever people in 25,000 years to succeed, think about how many failed before them. That's a big accomplishment, to put it lightly. What would you have them to do to be considered "impressive"? If someone tomorrow completely undid the entire western civilization and declared themselves as the Emperor of the his new Empire, would you shrug and say "meh, it's good but they could do better." I would like to know what you would consider impressive in the context of the Star Wars universe.

    Judging by Darth Plaguies their lives were actually pretty nice. Vectivus was very happy if you believe Lumiya, Tenebrous was a successful starship designer who was clearly well off, Plaguies was a fabulously wealthy and comfortable businessman able to do whatever he pleased whenever he wanted, and Palpatine led an incredibly luxurious life in his successful political career. They had far better lives than most people and it all led to an endgame that they believed in. The point is that they believed in the bigger picture, and they succeeded in changing the bigger picture forever. 25,000 years of a near exact same status quo, and since Palpatine it has never been the same as it was. What more do you want?

    Surely Palpatine was anything but weak and ineffective? His death at Vader's hands is a completely different situation to being a ruler.


    Uh, how do those examples prove that Palpatine wasn't a Banite? It's true that he didn't care too much for the Rule of Two by the time he came into power, since he wanted to rule forever, but can you blame him when he was the first one to actually succeed. Maul, Dooku, Vader, all at different times. Lumiya was Vader's apprentice, proving that Vader didn't care, not Palps, and Caedus was Lumiya's. Krayt was indirect. Maul is a part of the loophole that has always been an obvious part of the Rule of Two; you're an apprentice to a master and you want to be the master to an apprentice, so you take an apprentice and kill the master. I currently forget who said it, but "a master without an apprentice is a master of nothing". Almost the Rule of Three but that would be a bit on the nose.
    Last edited by Something_Exile, Mar 16, 2013