Any chance we can move on to the 21st century here? [Sure!]

Chyntuck - it's not a specific rule, it's a policy, and it's one that was laid out by site owners. I'm still a bit unsure about what you're asking me, though, could you clarify?

 

I've heard directly from my friends that, yes, the no-queer-canon-characters is part of the problem. (It's basically saying "don't you dare find a reflection of yourself in this particular way in canon characters, we find it so repugnant that it's not allowed" to them.) However I can try to entice some of them to actually post here. Most have communicated they don't want to touch TF.N with a ten-foot pole until the ban is lifted and I'm trying to fight on their behalf instead of getting them embroiled into yet another thing to worry over.

I can try to explain better why they see the non-slash rule as bigotry if needed, it's just that I seem to be stumbling over my words a lot in this thread and I apologise for that. I'm not coming off as intended apparently and it's a bit frustrating (I'm sure even more frustrating to read, tbqh).

 

False dichotomy. I don't write a lot of romance, and what romance I do write is pretty evenly split between slash and non-slash. Not being able to post the former on one website, when I can put it up and get feedback just fine on fanfiction.net and AO3 doesn't "alienate" me. But even in the years before I started writing any fanfiction of any kind, I avoided these boards because the existence of a homophobic rule alienated me, even though at that point I wouldn't have been affected by it.

Plus, I mean, the double standard is pretty blatant. Regardless of the number of LGBT people who feel alienated by it (and it should be pointed out the potential contributors to this discussion are self-selecting; someone who was really upset by the policy might not be on these forums in the first place, so the fact that it's mainly non-gay/bi people contributing to this discussion - and I'm asexual, btw - doesn't really indicate much), there's no reason not to treat all fics and relationship portrayals under the same set of standards. Is it family friendly? Then cool.

 

What, you don't think LGBT fic authors don't want to write canon characters as sharing their gender identity/sexual orientation? The two aren't *always* one and the same, and I agree that the feelings of LGBT people are more important than the feelings of straight people who just want to write non-cishet characters, but there's definitely overlap.

 

Skygawker nailed it. By saying "don't write these characters like you", we're alienating people who want to see themselves in canon characters; when there is little representation, people tend to make their own, and I don't think they need to be punished for it. Then again, as I've stated, I see an AU with a trans Luke or a bisexual Luke to be just as plausible an AU as one where he's evil or dies on Hoth or so on and so forth, and I don't find this going against canon to create an AU to be disrespectful to canon.

I can try to explain more thoroughly but I'm not sure how much good it will do. Sometimes it helps, however, to take a step back and insert another minority group into the place of what we're suggesting. If you replace "lgbtq" with "women", for instance, and this ban goes onto "writing women characters, but only tastefully, because most people writing women characters write self-fulfillment trash, and an AU rewriting a character as a woman is unacceptable" etc. etc., it makes things seem a little more starkly absurd.

 

/shrug I only have my LGBTQA star wars-loving friends to go off of, and it's their views I try to parrot, since I agree with them. I'm sorry that I failed in my task to try and explain my resistance to the ban in another way; my apologies if I offended or confused.

 

I didn't even know there was a no-SSR rule here. And right now I am just so happy I broke off posting my fanfics here because - yeah.

I see no reason why SSR should be forbidden as long as it adheres to the same principles of being family friendly as the other stories.

IMO, actively excluding SSR fanfic from the site, gives the whole site a bad name. Personally, I wouldn't want to be caught dead on a site like that. I admit I've been away a while and the new trailer dragged me back. But right now, I am thinking and thinking very hard about whether returning to a site with such a policy is something I want to do.

I think not.

 

First, sorry I just noticed a typo in my own post (I was typing on mobile quickly before class); the second "don't" was supposed to be an "ever" if that makes your interpretation of my post any different. I wasn't attempting to say that LGBT writers only or always write LGBT characters - I was responding to your assertion that, with regards to LGBT people and the authors who want to write canon characters as LGBT:

To restate myself: they are not always the same, but they certainly are sometimes. So, no, not all LGBT writers want the same thing, but I don't think it's patronizing to assume that some authors of slash/femslash fics are LGBT themselves, which is all I was doing. Even "assume" is really the wrong word, because I have slash-writing LGBT fandom friends, both IRL and online.


Anyway, I guess my real question is: when you say

Why do you think we need to distinguish between the two in this particular discussion? What does your opinion on whether the double standard should be removed depend on?

 

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/fanfic-faq-version-7-0.50012118/

The JC does not permit slash or same-sex relationships, including fiction of other genres.

 

Oh, also, I forgot to say:

Aside from the fact that fictional characters can be "token" but real people can't, why does it matter that they wouldn't be speaking for everyone? Isn't one person who feels alienated from these boards because of their gender identity or sexual orientation already one person too many?

And yeah, I'm not sure how you get "SSR is not banned" from "The JC does not permit slash or same-sex relationships." As for OC's, the whole rule is:

Allusions and innuendo. Must remain ambiguous. It's still a double standard as compared to heterosexual OCs.

I agree there is a difference. But just because the first one is worse doesn't mean the second doesn't need to be addressed, and since that's what this entire thread was made to discuss, saying "oh, well, it could be worse" isn't really a relevant tangent to go on.

But nobody was equating the two. Just because someone's going to be alienated worse by being constantly called slurs, told they're going to hell etc. than because there's a prohibition on seeing people like them portrayed in fics doesn't mean the second isn't also alienating. Do a Google search on LGBT erasure and see what actual LGBT people have to say about being left out of media.

But do you want a rule banning Luke/Mara? It's not about what the current membership wants, it's about the double standard. If people don't like the ship fics that get posted, they can always scroll past them. It's not like the other fics are going anywhere.

 

I guess this is where we have to agree to disagree. I see "don't dare see yourself in canon characters" to be a pretty big "screw you" to LGBTQA+ fans.

I understand you don't personally like shippy fic. Other people do. Have a little faith in your fellow authors, perhaps, in that they will craft beautiful stories with this rule repealed. I for one am looking forward to sharing some stories I otherwise could not - after all, right now all same-sex relationships, canon or not, are disallowed in the non-SW-fanfiction section. But I'm pretty sure in many people's minds I'm just slash-writing trash, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ lol.

Like I've said I consider the matter finished now that mods have taken it under advisement. I've tried to explain my position as best I can, and the moderators have listened politely and respecfully and have told of their plan to take it up with the site owner in a well-thought-out manner. I'm sorry for not being able to explain myself better - being disabled isn't that great for clear thinking sometimes - and I'm sorry again for any offense I caused by coming in with this pent-up anger on board.

 

The rule is (and this is the third time I quote it in its entirety in this thread, with emphasis that is included in the fanfic FAQ): "The JC does not permit slash or same-sex relationships, including fiction of other genres. As they are used in officially released material, allusions and innuendo are permissible so long as they remain ambiguous and are in reference to original characters. If you are unsure, contact a mod."


So NO. Right now, SSR is NOT allowed on these boards, even for OCs. The only thing permissible is "allusions and innuedo". Under the rule as it currently stands, the fics written by Breezy and other writers that include explicitly same-sex couples should be removed -- and all this is definitely not okay.

My question was in reply to your comment earlier that "The diversity you're talking about is why I'd rather we focus on changing the policy to allow LGBTQ representation, and not just SSR."
As I understand the rule from the Fanfic FAQ that I quoted above, there's nothing there that doesn't allow LGBTQ representation in the wider sense, i.e. a writer can have LGBTQ characters as long as he/she doesn't depict them explicitly as being in a same-sex relationship. The only other tidbit in the Fanfic FAQ that mentions homosexuality is a ban on derogatory slurs for homosexuals. So my question was, am I correct that, under the current rule, fanfic writers can have LGBTQ characters in their fics as long as they don't depict them as being in a same-sex relationship, or should be take it as a given that the ban on same-sex relationships automatically means that there shouldn't be LGBTQ characters altogether? (To give an example, would it be acceptable to have an LGBTQ character that has an unrequited crush on a character of the same sex and discusses it at length throughout the story, or should we assume that this is also not acceptable under the rule?)

Thanks for this.

I'd like a clarification as to what you consider to be "clear in the modern world". To me it's clear as day that the ban on same-sex relationships on these boards is offensive, whether LGBTQ people say it or not. My comment had to do specifically with this post by AFS83 who said that slash fic is offensive to LGBTQ people because of the "wish fulfilment" parameter. I'm a 41-year-old straight woman from a country where homosexuality is still very much taboo and where the fandom scene is virtually non-existent. I don't read enough slash fic, and most importantly I don't know enough LGBTQ people who read slash fic, to be able to tell whether LGBTQ people find slash fic offensive or not. This is why I would certainly prefer that people who are immediately concerned by the issue express themselves about it. (I hope I didn't make my question even more confusing now.)

 

To which I will repeat what I said earlier: there are tons of fics about heterosexual love stories on these boards and elsewhere that are "fantasies about a sexual relationship without substance." Why aren't those offensive?

(As a side note, I remember very well a thread in which we were discussing issues that have to do with gender and women, and where you sent a guy packing because "don't tell women what women should find offensive". I agreed completely with you then, but the same standards have to apply now. If you want, I'll take the time tomorrow and track down that specific post.)

Oh, and one more thing. How is the "slash fic is offensive to me" argument any different than "gay characters are offensive to me" in terms of principle? In the end, both boil down to, "I expect you to limit yourself and conform to my personal standards about an issue that doesn't affect me personally, because that's how I think the world should be." As has been repeatedly stated above, if you don't like it, read something else. Funnily enough, the main reason I don't read slash fic is the same as you -- what little I read was so badly written that it put me off. But if someone wants to write it, hey, that's fine with me. Also, Harpalyce and skygawker are people I trust enough to give it another try. Now if a dozen LGBTQ users were to turn up on this thread and say that they don't want slash fic on these boards because they find it offensive, that would be another matter altogether.

 

I never said that I was hetero.

 

Perhaps we need a clarification of terms here. I think that "slash fic" is running in many people's heads to be defined by the very worst in fanfiction - the very bottom of the barrel, so to speak, where there is no justification, no characterization, not even really an attempt at proper spelling and grammar most of the time. Disliking bad fanfiction is a pretty sensible thing.

However I've been using it as "fanfiction where there happens to be a non-heterosexual love story", which is a very different definition. I think Chyntuck and others have been using something akin to this definition too. In other words, having homosexual main characters doesn't make a fanfiction 'jump the shark' any more as having hetero characters does. It's just fanfiction that happens to have a quality, not fanfiction that is inherently bad.

Perhaps there is a different term that we need to be using, or at least get everybody on the same page as to what we mean by "slash fanfiction", before the conversation continues much farther as to facilitate discussion.

 

So I imagine that, instead of discussing the fact that same-sex relationships are banned on these boards, you'd rather we discuss a rule that bans fics that you personally find offensive, whether same-sex or heterosexual?

What we have on this thread is a large number of straight people who say that SSR being banned on these boards is not okay, that this may or may not include Luke/Han fics, and that LGBTQ people they know were put off by that ban. We also have one straight person who explains that Luke/Han fics are offensive to her idea of what homosexual relationships are like, and one person who identifies openly as queer but whose comment was sufficiently ambiguous to warrant asking for a clarification. Now since it's 3:30 am in my part of the world, I'll just go to bed and wait for that clarification instead of going around in circles.