PT Anyone else dislike Palpatine/Sidius' face in ROTS?

"Palp's crinklebutt look is the true face of Sidious, but he needs a bit of lightning for it to come out of him."

--Rick McCallum: Hyperspace chat.

 

Its fine. There is a 20 year gap in between. So really, ROTS's face is before it became more disfigured than in ROTJ.

 

A good makeup job, regardless of the time period, can be timeless and just as effective as when it was first seen. Makeup geniuses like Jack Pierce understood this (look at his Frankenstein makeup from 1931). The works Rick Baker, Stuart Freeborn, and his apprentice, Nick Dudman have all stood the test of time. Unfortunately, Revenge of the Sith was the first film to feature none of them. Not that the makeup was bad by any stretch, but it was missing some of that impact (can't really put it into words). Anyways, since Nick Dudman was the one who actually applied the Emperor prosthetics to Ian McDiarmid in 1983, not having him for Revenge of the Sith was a huge loss. Another thing to bring up; while the makeup was fantastic, continuity was clearly an issue, which makes me think Palpatine's new look was intentional. Look at Kit Fisto:

Shaak Ti, too

And Saesee Tiin:

And it's not just ROTS, there was a huge issue in Attack of the Clones where the makeup was considered "too different" on a few Jedi and they just became new characters completely. Not bringing back the original actors was also an issue; Saesee Tiin has a noticeably different facial structure. Fit Fisto now seems burdened by heavier prosthetics when he was previously athletic and limber in AoTC.

 

I'm definitely in the camp that thinks the 2005 ROTS make-up has a rubbery, false quality while the original 1983 ROTJ make-up looks more like real flesh.

The 2005 is not a horrible make-up job, it's just the materials are not as lifelike and the painting on top of them is kind of stylized.

 

Oh for gawds sake. As if bashing the CGI in the Prequels ad nauseam for 16 years wasn't enough, now people are bashing the practical effects themselves? Amazing. The hate for the prequels never ceases to amaze me. There's something new to hate everyday, apparently.

 

I don't hate the prequels and I'm not bashing anything. Criticism of a technical aspect of the movies does not mean one is a basher.

 

My comment wasn't aimed solely at you, it's aimed at all the people complaining about ROTS Palps.

Also, may I please know what 'technical' parameters you guys are using to justify that ROTJ Palps is better than ROTS, since your subjective tastes, personal preferences and individual reactions to what your eyes see cannot be considered 'technical' by any means.

 

I understand you weren't singling me out, but since I'm involved in the discussion I thought I'd take a moment to point out that criticism can be brought against a work of art without the critic deserving the labels "basher" or "hater". This isn't a black and white world, and the appreciation of art -- film, music, theater, etc. -- is more nuanced than "he critiqued x so he's a basher". It's a polemic way to view the world, and not at all accurate.

Prosthetic make-up effects are a technical craft. Hence my use of the term.

 

Deathsticks are one Hell of a drug.

 

Alright. I apologise for being rude, but I'd rather just enjoy the movies instead of not enjoying them while carrying out never ending debates where the talking points all hinge on personal preference and so nobody wins or comes to an agreement.

 

Oh heck, apology accepted and not even needed, but thank you all the same. This is just what Star Wars fans do, and have done at least since the 80s.

A discussion board may not be the place for you if you don't like "never ending debates where the talking points all hinge on personal preference and so nobody wins or comes to an agreement". Or at least, you could maybe try to avoid those threads. I for one enjoy them, because it gives me a sampling of opinions to weigh and consider. Mine isn't the only valid viewpoint, after all, and someone else might make an observation that I find persuasive.

 

Yeah I understand your view now. Sampling opinions is not for me. I'd rather sample simple straightforward facts since that actually paints a clear picture of the reality of the situation without any personal bias injected into it.

Just as an example, some people have repeated many times in this thread that the 'technical skill level' of the artists that worked on the ROTS Palps was OBVIOUSLY lower than that of those who worked on ROTJ, without providing any concrete evidence of this claim other than saying that the ROTJ one looks more 'real'. It is clear that such a claim is biased since they subjectively prefer the OT Palps and not the PT Palps.

From a slightly more objective standpoint, as some have also taken, one could say that 'technically' ROTS is more advanced than ROTJ due to 20 years of progress, and thus the new Palp's more technically sound than the old. I'm not talking about his look, I'm just talking about the technical correctness of the makeup for what they were trying to achieve.

Next objective point: ROTJ Palps was puffy and symmetrical due to his transformation just having taken place and due to him being much younger than his ROTJ version. The ROTJ version is saggier and uneven due to his older age and accelerated degradation due to dark side force usage ravaging his body over time. I think we can all agree that as one grows older they lose the symmetry in their face which gives way to a bit of uneven sag of the facial skin. Now extrapolate that to a supreme dark force user who is really very old.

They opted to go for a specific look in ROTS, just as they opted to go for a specific look in ROTJ. That decision was made not on a whim or out of malice towards the OT fans as some people like to state, but due to various story and lore factors and both the decisions were correct for their respective movies.

At this point the ONLY point of contention that should even exist would be the replacement of the ESB Emperor with one that looks more like ROTS than ROTJ. That's a technical issue and so it warrants a discussion.

There is no reason to 'dislike' ROTS Palps' face since it fits the story Lucas was trying to tell. It fits the larger world and the lore we all know.

Therefore, technically there is nothing wrong with his appearance in ROTS. The only reason anyone does not like him in ROTS boils down to personal preference and since that's subjective, it's a never ending debate which is pointless by its very definition.

Now, if the purpose of this thread is to simply rejoice in hating the ROTS Palps without telling those who like it why it 'shouldn't be like that', then please go ahead and criticise it and hate it.

But if the purpose of this thread is to come to a conclusion as to which is better or which 'should have' been used in ROTS or why the ROTJ is better than ROTS, then it is a pointless thread since there is no right answer.

I hope now you understand why I prefer to deal with facts rather than opinions. Facts take people forward to a common end point quickly, while opinions just make everyone go in circles trying to prove who is more correct, when no one can be.

 

I disagree with your opinion that "opinions just make everyone go in circles trying to prove who is more correct, when no one can be."

Opinions are about sharing observations and thoughts. There is no "correct" or "incorrect" with opinions. I find other people's viewpoints to be valuable, and reading them can be entertaining and enlightening.

For example, I opine that the materials used to construct the 2005 ROTS prosthetics look less realistic -- less like genuine flesh -- than the materials used on the 1983 ROTJ make-up. Others will agree or disagree with this observation. Pretty soon we're having a robust discussion about it. Everyone shares their own viewpoint. Maybe someone knowledgeable offers up some facts about what materials were used to make the various effects. Then when the subject is exhausted we move on to the next topic.

Welcome to fandom.

 

They're sure to feel welcome now that they've been belittled to **** and back.


Sent from my brain using thumbs.

 

Members of the fandom had gone overboard with the whole "OMG YOU LOVE THE PT? YOU SHOULD FEEL ASHAMED!!" deal, I'll admit. No one gets to insult or belittle those for liking things others don't.

 

This Palpatine looks better.

 

I think it was important for Anakin to see his deformity, but yeah, the makeup itself seemed a bit puffy and rubbery in an ultimately unbelievable way. Didn't really ruin anything for me though.

 

I'm far more disturbed by the wheezy "Good...the Force is strong with you..." line and the face he makes while saying it than the actual effect of his face changing. Oh, and the fact that his face is kind of green at that point. A few more things that have me shaking my head and wondering why anybody thought they were a good idea.

That being said, from that point on, I feel the rest of the movie is basically enjoyable and among the more redeeming points in the PT. Don't get me wrong, there are bits and pieces I like up until that point, but there's always something that comes up that makes me feel pretty self conscious when showing Star Wars to someone else for the first time.

 

As soon as he puts the hood on he looks great. Before that it's like a monster Halloween mask.

 

Stumbled upon this thread and I have to say, Sidious' face looks a million times better in ROTJ, there is absolutely no doubt about it. The face from ROTJ looked ghastly and deformed, desperately clinging to the hood of his robe and it was amazing! It showed him as the personification of evil; beautiful in some perverse way.

... Then ROTS face looked like a halloween mask.

 

I agree that, in my opinion, the 2005 prosthetic looks less realistic. I always questioned why they didn't use the same technique and, perhaps, a photo of the 1983 prosthetic for reference.

 

I always wrote it off as a deformity that was healing in ROTS, by ROTJ, he was fully healed. That is how I look at it.

 

Palpatine/Sidious is one of the classic character designs. Great character, costume, make up, and acting.

Practically perfect in every way.
-Darth Poppins

 

So, a spoonful of dark side helps the force lightning go down? In the most painful way.

 

Hmmm.... I do think the ROTJ Pals looks better, but this is one thing that never really bothered me. McDiarmid's cackling Emperor was always a plus for me. I have plenty of other criticisms but this isn't one of them.