Anyone else feel the AOTC forum is going down?

"I don't see how Sanctuary threads can help discussion. Discussion prospers with opposing viewpoints, something that you're not going to get in a Sanctuary."

This is the standard argument against sanctuary threads, and I always feel that the person making it is missing a very obvious point: When you talk about sanctuary threads in a forum (the TPM forum, for example), you are talking about TWO threads out of HUNDREDS. In any one of those hundreds of other threads, sanctuary regulars can (and do) engage in serious debate with those of opposing viewpoints. The sanctuary threads simply provide one small corner of the forum where members who agree can discuss things without having to defend their views at every turn. It's not about turning the whole forum into a sanctuary and it's not about "hiding" from those who disagree with you. It's about giving people a choice. What mood am I in today? Do I want to debate, or do I simply want to kick back and hang out with friends without having to argue with people? Maybe I want to do a little of both. The point is that sanctuary threads give posters the choice. Whether or not they exercise that choice is their own decision, but I know this: The lack of middle ground that the sanctuary threads provide is one of the main reasons why I and many others rarely venture into the AOTC forum. Without that middle ground, this place has a tendency to become a zoo.

As far as the perceived civility of the Classic Trilogy forum is concerned, two points have not been addressed. First, the Classic Trilogy forum does not receive the kind of traffic that the Prequel fora do. Most people have said pretty much everything they have to say about those films a long time ago. The Prequels, on the other hand, are still new and discussion of them is likely to remain brisk at least until after Episode III.

Second, and in my opinion more importantly, there does not exist the same kind of division among fan opinion regarding the Classic Trilogy as there does regarding the Prequels. There is much more of a consesus among fans when it comes to the Classic Trilogy, and therefore far less potential for conflict. Sanctuary threads are unnecessary in the Classic Trilogy forum. But like it or not, the Prequels are controversial among fans and discussion of them invariably generates heat.

This is a problem that is not going away anytime soon. It remains my considered opinion that the least offensive remedy to this issue is the establishment of sanctuary threads. It has worked in the TPM forum, and it could work here as well.

 

It remains my considered opinion that the least offensive remedy to this issue is the establishment of sanctuary threads.

Never. You shouldn't venture into this forum if you hate the film? The creation of sanctuary threads here will be over my dead body!

 

Second, and in my opinion more importantly, there does not exist the same kind of division among fan opinion regarding the Classic Trilogy as there does regarding the Prequels. There is much more of a consesus among fans when it comes to the Classic Trilogy, and therefore far less potential for conflict.

I couldn't agree more with you on that point, Coop. Just beware of Windham Earle

Much of the discussion in this forum is very civil, even if people disagree about some points, until trolls come in and make senseless arguments. This does not apply to many members of the TPM Basher's Sanctuary. AgentCoop, RebelScumb and several others have shown to see both sides of a certain argument, and hence have gained much respect. But it's incumbant of people on both sides of the fence to see past our differences, acknowedge good arguments that occur on the other side, and move on. I hope I'm doing my part, and others definitely are.

 

Im not necessarily against the idea of "Sanctuaries" like the ones in the TPM forum.

But its pretty obvious that what you gushers really want is sanctuary from any dissenting opinions (i.e: "the PT may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread" or "GL might not be some sort of supergenius" etc.) everywhere except one or two "basher-friendly" threads.

How about an entire forum for those who love at least some of the SW films, are critically minded, and enjoy lively debate. That way we can leave the "Why does everyone hat Jar-jar" people in peace and tranquility.

 

But its pretty obvious that what you gushers really want is sanctuary from any dissenting opinions

Not true. Why the baiting in a thread about how to improve this forum?

Anyway, like so many things in life, some of the issues here come down to personal resposibility. Unfortunately, there will always be people trolling, insulting others, and making stupid off topic posts no matter what you do. I think until the overall mood on the board changes (ie people not biting when others troll, being respectful of other etc.), no amount of changes to the forum itself will make much difference.

Adding sanctuaries won't keep people from being themselves when they leave those threads.

 

The forum seems no different to me; I was dodging flames the moment I arrived here.

I agree with the idea of a bashers sanctuary. At least then there would be a place for us bashers to debate AOTC without a scallywag popping up and insulting us and therefore causing the thread to close. then also some of us bashers won't feel the need to "ruin" your threads either, by taking stuff off topic.

Just my contribution.

 

Dahveed, I don't want any sanctuaries in here at all. Gushers don't complain about dissenting opinions. What I often complain about is when non-AOTC fans take every shot they can get at Lucas in a neutral thread.

Edit: Dahveed, even one of your own just said he'd like a bashers sanctuary where he can go without hearing dissenting opinions.

 

"I couldn't agree more with you on that point, Coop. Just beware of Windham Earle"

Now that you mention it, I just received this chess deal in the mail this morning! [face_shocked]

 

Just to put this into perspective:

the next 2 years are going to be slow.

Assuming TF.N survives until then and generously continues to make these forums available to us, the first big debate isn't going to come until Lucas announces the Episode 3 title, followed of course by whatever people say about the trailer in November 2004.

The easiest thing to do if you don't like spirited AOTC debate is to gradually drift toward the episode 3 forums.

 

" I still want to see TPM and AOTC forums merged."

Right now, there still is plenty of discussion on the individual films to necessitate individual forums for each film. After Episode 3 comes out, chances are, all three forums will be condensed into a "Prequel Trilogy" forum.

" I think it proves something too... Star Wars fans have become a joke... a joke that those who hate us and those who pretend to be us love telling over and over.

This forum is becoming a big joke."

Thanks for the constructive criticism.

" This forum is just a different beast than it used to be. It's ridiculous to expect it to be as much fun as it was in the days of spoilers and speculation. Now certain things have been discussed to death, and no matter what you are going to have the basher/gusher thing, sorry but it's simply unavoidable."

I agree. It's unavoidable, but that doesn't mean that everyone can't get along.

" Perhaps the solution is to have a mod assume the duty of redirecting new threads to old one's on the same topic - I mean, how many different, yet slightly reworded, threads are there about Mace Windu?"

I do this every time I see a redundant thread. Ask anyone who was here right after AOTC's release. They'll tell you all about me.

" What mood am I in today? Do I want to debate, or do I simply want to kick back and hang out with friends without having to argue with people?"

If you want to "debate" (or discuss the films), there are plenty of threads around. If you want to kick back and hang out, there is the social thread. I created the new social thread in hopes that it would help create a better sense of community here. I was hoping that both "bashers" and "gushers" could go there, put aside their differences, and relax. I was hoping that people could see that even though they don't agree with someone about certain aspects of AOTC, that they still can have a lot in common with someone else. I was hoping that friendships could be formed.

"You shouldn't venture into this forum if you hate the film"

There is nothing wrong with not liking AOTC. Everyone is free to their opinions, and I'm not going to censor someone just because I don't agree with their viewpoints. The major problem is when users "bait" or "flame" each other.

"At least then there would be a place for us bashers to debate AOTC without a scallywag popping up and insulting us and therefore causing the thread to close."

How can you "debate" anything in a "Bashers Sanctuary"? It'd just end up being, "I don't like this." "Yeah, me neither." Likewise, the discussion in a "Gushers Sanctuary" would be: "I love this!!!", "OMG!! Me too!!!".

"Anyway, like so many things in life, some of the issues here come down to personal resposibility. Unfortunately, there will always be people trolling, insulting others, and making stupid off topic posts no matter what you do. I think until the overall mood on the board changes (ie people not biting when others troll, being respectful of other etc.), no amount of changes to the forum itself will make much difference."

Good point. Everyone here needs to take responsibility for what they post. Put yourself in the other person's shoes. How would you like it if they were treating you that way?

Keep the replies coming.

 

1. Why do you visit this forum?

I am a SW fan. This is the only place I can discuss my love of the Star wars films with like-minded indivduals. other than here, no one I know is interested in SW.

2. What do you like about this forum?

The ability to post about a wide range of issues on anything to do with AOTC. I like it that I can find out peoples opinions on the film both negative and positive.

3. What do you dislike about this forum?

I don't like the fact that what I call constructive criticism is dealt with such hostility by some of the fans. A lot of people I know do not post here, simply because they are afraid to post their feelings toward the film for fear of being victimised by people who call themselves "gushers". These people will, instead, of discussing the film, discuss the said critic and personally insult him. I do not see how a criticism of AOTC can be seen as a personal issue. I dislike it when this happens and it results in threads being closed and nothing being discussed other than "Star Wars AOTC was the greatest film ever!!" flag waving.

4. What would you like to see changed?

If the above issue cannot be resolved, I would like to see the creation of a bashers sanctuary to counter the threat of the gushers.



EDIT:
Anyway, here's to YodaJeff for volunteering to moderate this forum! I don't think he, or any of the mods get enough credit for this difficult and un-enviable task. I know he and I had our little run-ins at the start, but I and, in fact all of us, should realise the importance of moderators in a forum. I for one, would hate this forum to be an ainitcoolnews talkback, where every other word is **** or ****.

 

"How can you "debate" anything in a "Bashers Sanctuary"? It'd just end up being, "I don't like this." "Yeah, me neither." Likewise, the discussion in a "Gushers Sanctuary" would be: "I love this!!!", "OMG!! Me too!!!"."

I suggest you take the time to actually read the Basher's Sanctuary. There's plenty of debate going on, for instance, between those who loved AOTC (like myself) and those who did not. What the Basher's Sanctuary tends to lack that many of these other open debate threads have is the personal attacks. We keep our debates respectful, and limit our criticisms to the ideas being expressed, not the people expressing them. And we clean our own house. When someone is acting up, we make it known that such behaviour is not tolerated. That tends to be another problem with the threads in the AOTC forum: I feel that when someone starts a thread, they have a certain amount of responsibility to keep that thread under control. You have to police your own thread, and not just wander away from it while it degenerates into name-calling.

In closing, I reiterate: We're talking here about TWO threads out of HUNDREDS.

 

I don't think this forum is going down, but I do think that TFN takes a step down when they post "news stories" like the Coldest 50 link to Film Threat.

 

"There's plenty of debate going on, for instance, between those who loved AOTC (like myself) and those who did not."

Hmmm... that sounds off topic for a thread in the TPM forum.

"What the Basher's Sanctuary tends to lack that many of these other open debate threads have is the personal attacks. We keep our debates respectful, and limit our criticisms to the ideas being expressed, not the people expressing them. And we clean our own house. When someone is acting up, we make it known that such behaviour is not tolerated"

I don't see why it is so hard to "limit your criticisms to the ideas being expressed, not the people expressing them" in a non-sanctuary thread. As for "cleaning house", you still can let people know that their behavior isn't appreciated, by letting them know, letting a mod know (that's why we're here), or by ignoring the member. Just because someone might flame you isn't a reason to flame them back. (Note: I'm not talking to you specifically. I'm talking to everyone.)

 

"Hmmm... that sounds off topic for a thread in the TPM forum."

Of course it's off-topic in the TPM forum. Unfortunately, there's no place in the AOTC forum where such conversation can take place without the parties involved being barraged with "If you hate 'Star Wars' then why are you here?" and similar constructive comments.

"I don't see why it is so hard to "limit your criticisms to the ideas being expressed, not the people expressing them" in a non-sanctuary thread. As for "cleaning house", you still can let people know that their behavior isn't appreciated, by letting them know, letting a mod know (that's why we're here), or by ignoring the member. Just because someone might flame you isn't a reason to flame them back. (Note: I'm not talking to you specifically. I'm talking to everyone.)"

In principle, that's true. In practice...well, look around you. This is the AOTC forum, home to some of the worst behaviour that both the "basher" and "gusher" contingents have to offer. These people are running rampant in this forum and the bottom line is that it's keeping people out. Do you really think I want to discuss AOTC (a movie I loved) in a forum dedicated to TPM (a movie I was deeply disappointed with)? But the situation is what the situation is. The AOTC forum is dominated by a belligerent atmosphere. By setting some clear ground rules, by drawing two bold lines in the sand and saying "X behaviour will not be tolerated on this side of this line", you create a middle ground where people can regroup and catch their breath between the last flaming and the next one. Two sanctuaries give users a "home base" to find respite in before venturing into the "no man's land" that is the rest of the forum.

 

I heartily applaud T_H_X_SKYWALKER for starting this thread. I think it will give valuable feedback for those of us responsible for running it.

On the matter of Sanctuaries, I'm of the opinion that they are excellent additions to the forums. Debate and discussion does not stagnate; quite the contrary, in fact - if Snowboards had not deleted the old TPM Basher's Sanctuary, it would have approximately 13,000 posts in it now. What is more (and this is verbatim from cbjedi) it was also the longest running, on-topic discussion in the TPM forum. Further, there is actual debate and discussion going on, simply because "bashers" are not interchangeable - just because one of us disliked an aspect of the film it does not follow that the rest do. Again, even a cursory glance at the TPM forum Basher's Sanctuary will show myriad posters with varied opinions. The only commonality in there is a general sense of dissatisfaction with the film(s); how that dissatisfaction is realized cannot be generalized. There are those who dislike thematic aspects of the film but applaud the technical aspects, and vice versa. There are those who enjoy the characterizations but dislike plot elements, and vice versa. What draws the regulars into these discussions is the prevailing sense of mutual respect, even in the presence of disagreement, which is sorely lacking in this forum.

I appreciate the efforts of everyone involved in keeping this place civil, reg and mod alike. I did the same thing for a long time before I got colors, so I can say with some authority that it is appreciated.

Again, as YodaJeff said, if *anyone* feels that a situation is getting out of control (which tends to be when the discussion is no longer on the topic of the thread but now about the posters in question), PM one of us. We're here to help keep this place fun and respectful.

 

1. Why do you visit this forum?

Because I like AOTC.

2. What do you like about this forum?

I like a handful of the users who regularly post in-depth and insightful messages.

3. What do you dislike about this forum?

I dislike that many people state opinions as if they were absolute truth. I also dislike that several of the users who *used* to post regularly no longer do. I also dislike that some of my favorite threads have SUNK to the depths, never (I fear) to be seen again.

4. What would you like to see changed?

I doubt the problems can be fixed by the moderators. Change has to start with the individual users. I'd like to see a more imaginative atmosphere which cultivates creative critical responses to the movie. I'm a dreamer ...

 

classix, I'm with you.

I had fun in the forums in May, when the movie had just come out. Even in June. Then from July-onward it started getting really cumbersome to sift through all the arrogance and rampant cynicism. I do still stop by from time to time because of a few posters I enjoy, a few insightful threads, and just to throw in my $0.02 on certain issues. If I'm in dire, immediate need of fandom-indulgence I visit some favorite smaller forums where the discussion is more concentrated.

 

how many other fansites are there on the net with as much traffic as tf.n and the jc forums?

 

1. Why do you visit this forum?
Because this is the greatest place to talk about AotC... and my excitement over finally exchanging the fullscreen version to widescreen on DVD.

2. What do you like about this forum?
It's big. I can talk about any aspect about AotC in the world. And the mods are fantastic.

3. What do you dislike about this forum?
I actually dislike something about this forum? ?

4. What would you like to see changed?
Simple. I just want to be smarter so I can show everyone up when it comes to AotC discussion! Is that not a reasonable goal?

 

I agree with classixboy pretty much word for word on 1 & 2.

3. "what do you dislike about this forum?"

It also gets under my skin when someone puts off their opinion as if it's fact.

4. "What would you like to see changed?"

I have been just as guilty as anyone else about saying things that might have been avoided, and yes, change can start with the individual user.

With that said, I would like to take the time to apologize to anyone who I may have offended in the past. For whatever reason, we're all Star Wars "FANS", and should be able to get along reasonably well. No matter what you do or don't like about Star Wars, it's not going to be around forever unless us, the fans, keep it around.

 

I agree with AgentCoop

 

>>>I don't think this forum is going down, but I do think that TFN takes a step down when they post "news stories" like the Coldest 50 link to Film Threat.<<<

I agree. What gives? Do Scott and Josh hate Star Wars now, or what? Are they tring to be "even-handed" by posting a news article every time some internet loser calls the prequels crap? Or do they want to rile up the fans, and have them write nasty emails to said internet losers?

Unless the basher articles have something new to say(I didn't bother to read the 50 frigid thingy, but that last "Star Wars is dead!" article was painfully cliche), I think its best not to link to them. Why direct so much traffic to the anti-Star Wars sites?

PS, to be more on-topic, I'll say the forum seems the same as always to me. It keeps me entertained. Gushers should learn to accept other peoples's criticisms, but on the other hand, we should realize that this is a FAN site. I always find it funny when someone posts about how much they hate AOTC, and then they act all shocked when the fans get mad and insult them. What do you expect? A hug and a kiss and a thanks for your kind insight?

 

`Right now, there still is plenty of discussion on the individual films to necessitate individual forums for each film. After Episode 3 comes out, chances are, all three forums will be condensed into a "Prequel Trilogy" forum.'

I can't agree that there's enough discussion sorry, but even if there were, why not still combine the forums together anyway? I feel it would double the discussion.

 

If anything I think the AOTC forum is just starting to get good again, its been way to out of control since the movie came out. Ever since the dvd came out its shown substancial improvement, a lot of the annoying people have been banned or left on their own. And you question or critisze stuff now with out being called the anti-christ or a lucas-hater. Now that people can see the movie whenever they want they are looking at it more objectively. I'm not saying that everyone is becoming bashers, jsut that the conversations are becoming reasonably intelligent again.

Maybe thats a stretch, but they are definitly more civil.