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Anyone else feel this issue with Attack of the Clones? Has nothing to do with acting at all.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by BoromirsFan, Jul 18, 2011.

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  1. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2010
    Clearly they thought they would be "keeping the peace" if they eliminated dooku and rescued anakin and company by preventing a war.

    I think they deleted a scene where some jedi tried to shut down the droids, but they turned back on.

    it was really their failure to think through their actions, kinda like their advice to anakin. they ran headlong into a war. They were arrogant, because they felt they were unstoppable with 200 jedi, big whoop they all got shot to death
     
  2. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    I doubt Christopher Lee was up to it.

    Dooku is supposed to be a fencer, yet that was poorly demonstrated.

    When I think fencing, I think this:

    [image=http://www.stampfrancisco.com/Images/Thumbs2/101-1007.jpg]

    A lightsaber seems like a perfect weapon for modern fencing, yet we don't see much of it in the films.

    (Vader shows elements of it at times, but his mechanical body deters any attempt at footwork)
     
  3. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    I agree with the original poster, to a point. I think one issue with AOTC's ending action sequence is that it goes on a bit too long. The droid factory sequence could be cut down some. I like that R2 saves Padme, but this part in particular could be shortened. The arena fight with the creatures, however, is one of my favorites -- particularly in seeing how each character handles their threat. As for the appearance of the Jedi, I'll concur that it's not the best part of the battle -- I'm always waiting for the clones to arrive, personally. This might be because there's a lot of intercutting with R2 and C3P0, but I enjoy the sequence more when the gunships arrive. There's something rather dynamic about the scene. Mace vs Jango is great, though, especially seeing Boba's reaction.

    As for the final lightsaber duels. I do think Obi-Wan goes down too easily and it seemed a bit of a waste to give Anakin two lightsabers when he loses one so quickly. That being said, Anakin vs Dooku is one of my favorite duels in the Saga. It's not even so much a duel as it is a play on light and sound.
     
  4. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 20, 2001
    Except for the fact that everything they say throughout the film indicates the opposite. And in TPM. There was no arrogance. There was no overconfidence about war. And they are trying to prevent the war. They say they cannot fight wars, are losing powers and are not soldiers. They have no desire to jump into battle and get it on. They just make an incredibly dumb decision. Again, it's all illogical.
     
  5. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2010
    At the very least the jedi, especially Mace Windu were very arrogant by the time of ROTS. But idk about AOTC.

    The Jedi have been in battles, such as the Stark Hyperspace War.

    What Mace Windu meant by "not soldiers" is prolonged conflict. The battle for Geonosis was meant to end any possibility of a war, not extend it. But the droids came and the clones came and they got stretched out, killed even further and weakened by the time of ROTS.
     
  6. Jedi_Ford_Prefect

    Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 9, 2003
    A couple of things.

    First, I think the slightly lackluster quality to the lightsaber duels at the end is primarily due to the fact that it's all tied to one location. For the most part, I think Lucas' best duels are where he throws in several environments, both for variety of the visuals and the kind of action you can do in different places-- the TPM and ESB duels mix things up nicely with wide-open spaces, catwalks with bottomless pits, force-fields, freezing chambers an all kinds of physical factors that can affect the fight. The various duels of ROTS do the same, and even ROTJ has some variety with the throne-room's stairs, catwalk and reactor-shaft. It's like a concentration of all the essential ingredients into one room.

    AOTC and ANH, however, keep the fighting tied to a single location, one that doesn't have a whole lot of oomph. Yes, the Geonosis and Death Star hangars allow for some nice framings and lighting (especially the former, with its "lit by lightsabers" portion), but for the most part they're just open spaces that don't get in the way of the duelists. Perhaps at that point there'd already been enough set-pieces and it was time to just concentrated on the fighters, but it wouldn't have hurt much to vary the terrain a bit. At the same time, the lack of distraction really does let us just focus on Anakin and Yoda's shining moments here. So I really don't mind. I would like to see the full version of that scene, and not just the butchered version Ben Burtt cut together, but whatever.
     
  7. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 20, 2001
    I don't think it's the environment. It's just the lack of emotional weight. Count Dooku by the end of AOTC is a completely meaningless character. If you can even follow what he's actually trying to accomplish, you have absolutely zero emotional investment in him. Anakin is a mass murderer run amok and a clown. Obi Wan is fussy dad. And why are they even having this duel? It's really just because they are Jedi and Sith. What would killing Dooku accomplish? It certainly wouldn't end the intergalactic war that Yoda just started. how about speaking to DOoku? How about finding out why he left the order. What made him go dark? Did he have a vendetta against the Jedi? These types of scenes beforehand would have given some actual depth to Dooku's character instead of being a more refined lackey than Darth Maul. It's the emotion that makes duels great, not the choreography. There has to be some weight to them. Even people who hate ROTJ like the duel because the emotional stakes are so high. The buildup is amazing and the tension is great. In AOTC, it's just "well it's the finale scene, so it's time for a duel."
     
  8. FalorWindrider

    FalorWindrider Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jun 7, 2010
    I don't understand why they weren't like "Screw you, Anakin, this is your own damn fault." Why bother rescuing the three? Mace, I am disappoint.
     
  9. CoolUsernameHere

    CoolUsernameHere Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 18, 2011
    My point is that unlike a stop-motion fest, a CGI-fest ages very quickly. The technology is advancing rapidly, and while the scene in question looked good when it was first released in theaters, it (at least in my opinion) did not age well visually at all.
    Think about how you think we'll view that scene 15 years from now. And compare that to how we view the Luke vs. Vader lightsaber battle from RoTJ right now. I personally see a difference.
     
  10. Jedi_Ford_Prefect

    Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 9, 2003
    I frankly think the whole "emotion is what makes duels great" is bunk, to be honest. Yeah, emotional conflict between the combatants can add a narrative momentum to it, but if you don't have solid choreogaphy, coverage and cutting, then who cares? I'll take the Duel of the Fates in TPM over any given revenge-fueled movie swordfight any day of the week. Relying on the backstories of characters is a lazy way out to coming up with a great action sequence of any kind. It isn't the coffee scene in Heat that gives the shoot-outs between Pacino and De Niro such power-- it certainly helps, but it's Michael Mann's epic shooting and staging of the gunplay that makes it work. "The action is the juice".

    And anyway-- there's plenty of emotion in the AOTC duels. Dooku's a traitor to the Jedi, to the Republic! He's joined the Dark Lord of the Sith, and is about to start an intergalctic war (and killing/capturing him right now actually would stop the war-- the Separatists would no longer have a leader, and the Jedi might actually be able to get some answers from him)! He's put the lives of everyone that Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda care about in jeopardy! Anakin's conflict is the most interesting to me, because he's facing a mirror of what he's already on the way to becoming-- when he says "You're going to pay for all the Jedi you've killed today", I can't help but wince in sympathy, knowing all the Jedi he's going to kill himself. Anakin wants to be a Jedi so badly, and is projecting all his guilt and rage for his inertia towards the Dark Side onto Dooku.
     
  11. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    And then Yoda comes in to save the day -- having to deal with the fact that Obi-Wan Kenobi, a Jedi he may have taken some pride in helping to guide, and Anakin Skywalker, the vaunted "Chosen One", which the Council was "confident in its decision" to send out on his first mission to protect a senator, weren't mighty enough even together to disable Dooku, and one of the two just lost an arm that's now lying somewhere on the floor, and on top of this, Yoda is now dealing with a wayward "padawan", one of his very own that the leading lights of the Council earlier felt was a "political idealist, not a murderer", but who has actually gone bad and fermented a war, which Yoda himself has just had a hand in helping to fizz over. I mean, really, for Yoda, this has to be one of his worst days ever. Best of all, he stops the duel to save Anakin and Obi-Wan, breaking his own code, allowing the leader of the opposition and now-wanted war tyrant to get away. Plenty of emotion there -- for those willing and able to invest.
     
  12. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 20, 2001
    Don't get me wrong. I think the 218 seconds we get of Darth Maul in TPM is the best part of the horrible film by far. But to say that duel was better than all of the OT duels? I disagree. But I can respect your opinion. But I think the choreographed, fancy pants saber fighting lost its luster quickly. These cats don't even speak during duels in the PT. It's just whirly twirly with no emotion whatsoever. Again, why were Ankain and Obi Wan so intent on killing Dooku?? The Seperatists were a CONFEDERATION of planets. There were leaders from all over the galaxy on the CIS, not just Dooku. He was a figurehead if anything, because he ruled no planet of his own. So they were more than capable with the droids made by the Wasps to continue the war (which they do BTW. Remember, he dies in ROTS and nothing in the war changes one bit!!). I love Ray Park but without emotion of any sort and even much purpose, the duel just is not as meaningful as any of the OT duels.

    But so much of what you said is never indicated in the actual film. When do we ever see Anakin express any guilt or concern about the Dark Side?? in 3 films, Anakin never once mentioned the Dark Side. We get no hint that Anakin sees his future in Dooku. He's just pissed at Dooku for the arena slaughter and wants payback. And again, why is Dooku doing this? What made him "retire" from Jedidom? Why did he turn to a Sith? how did he even meet Lord Sidious? None of this is ever mentioned. Dooku is just a one-dimensional disposable lackey like Maul.

    Again, it just comes back to bad storytelling and direction.
     
  13. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Right.
     
  14. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2010
    Green_Destiny_Sword

    Okay, honestly do you truly hate the Star Wars Prequels? [face_monkey]
     
  15. Jedi_Ford_Prefect

    Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 9, 2003
    I prize the way a fight is shot, staged and edited as much as if not more than the "emotions" they're experiencing. I don't care if they stop to trade words during the duel. I'm here to watch a fight, not a conversation. If that's what you want in a duel, watch The Princess Bride.

    At the time of AOTC, he's the Robert E. Lee of the Separatists. Kill the head, and the body will die. By ROTS, there's a spare leader in place. Once he's gone, the war is supposed to end, and Palpatine is supposed to give up his powers.

    Basically everything on Tatooine.

    We get quite a lot about Dooku, actually. He was Qui-Gon's master, misses him dearly, and shared with him a frustration for a corruption in the Senate. It's that corruption that drove him to leave the Jedi Order and join Darth Sidious, likely with the intent of eventually murdering the Dark Lord of the Sith once and for all (which is what all Sith do, at some point). As for the rest, we can fill in the blanks ourselves, can't we? Part of the charm of SW is the relative lack of exposition. It doesn't spoonfeed us stuff we can figure out on our own.
     
  16. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 20, 2001
    Te

    Sure. These are good examples (even though I honestly don't remember the second line. Does he say that to Mace??). But I am referring to Anakin actually having some type of internal struggle and conflict about turning to the Dark Side. It never happens. He never once shows any concern about turning fully evil. This is the main character development of a 3-film series and we never actually see it. Just seems kind of silly.
     
  17. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 20, 2001
    No. I don't. I just think they were poor movies. The "hate" thing is an old cliche from times past. Let's just critical discussion and respect each other's views.
     
  18. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 20, 2001
    Fair enough. It's just a matter of taste. But let me ask you this..was Darth Maul necessary in this film? Why?

    Robert E Lee actually led batles (Fredricksburg, Bull Run). He made his name you know, actually fighting people and directing troops. What did Dooku do?? Where was his leadership? What battle did he fight in? What was his ideology? We get none of this in the films. What we do get is a clear group of planetary leaders who have a massive army built by the wasps. So if Dooku dies, there is no reason for them to stop their war. And when Dooku does die, the war does not miss a beat.

    When he's relishing murdering the women and children? Or listing his ambitions for power? Where do we see Anakin saying "i'm falling to the Dark Side" or "if I continue in this path, I am going to turn evil.." or even "I felt the Dark Side, but I can control it"?? This demonstrates actual conflict or concern about the main story point of the entire trilogy.


    Woah. Where are these things said in the film? He left the Jedi Order because of corruption in the Senate and decided the best thing to do next was to turn evil and join the even more corrupt Darth Sidious?? And where do we ever get that Dooku was a double agent who was really good?? This is never in the films. And if he was out to undo Sidious, why not tell somebody when yuo're about to die "Sidious is Palpatine. He's behind everything!" instead of sitting here stunned that the most evil guy in he universe betrayed you.

    I'm all for figuring thing out, but this stuff sounds made up. I just don't know what scenes you're referring to from AOTC. We get barely any infomation on Dooku, zero development and no emotion whatsoever. He's just a disposable lackey in another of Palpatine's convoluted schemes.
     
  19. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2010
    It is implied that Dooku left because of these things.

    I think you do hate the films, judging by your posts. If you think they are poor films, and think nothing of them, then why do you continue to post here?

    Clearly your mind is on them.
     
  20. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 20, 2001
    Again where is it "implied"? All we get is one ridiculous offer to "join me" to destroy the Sith that he makes to Obi Wan at a time when Obi an would have absolutely no reason to trust him whatsoever. And that line was just a throw in "homage' of some sort to ESB (which is pretty obvious) as opposed to a real character revelation.

    As someone who has been a member of this forum for over a decade, I will again state that you are wasting your time saying critics of the PT just "hate" the films. Same with asking "why do you post here?" I, like many people over the years, who have been here and critiqued these films, post here because I love Star Wars. I'm a big fan of the films. But the PT happened to produce 3 stinkers. As such, I exercise my right of free speech to comment on a film series that I am big fan of and enjoy discussing.

    Let me try and give an easy analogy. Let's say you are an Oakland Raiders fan for the past 20 years. If the Raiders are 0-15 this season and you go on a Raiders fan site and say "man, these guys are TERRIBLE!! The offense stinks. The defense can't stop anyone. The coaching is atrocious!" does this mean you are no longer a fan of the team? Of course not. No one would even question you. The biggest fans are usually the most passionate critics! What I am doing is no different.
     
  21. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2010
    very well then.

    from what the dialogue gave me, i understood what happened to dooku. But i guess some people have to look further.
     
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    What happened to Dooku is directly addressed in several EU sources.

    He left due to corruption in the Republic as well as complacency among the Jedi, which he felt led directly to Qui-Gon's death.

    I'll wait for the argument that "we shouldn't have to go to an EU source," and maybe we shouldn't. Although it's never bothered me to go to an EU source for background information that simply wasn't covered in the films, that bothers some people; I get that.

    But one thing I love about the prequels is that the issues they address are far too complex to be fully covered in six hours. I don't consider that a flaw of the films, I consider it a strength.
     
  23. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2010
    i got it through his acting. The way he sadly spoke of Qui-Gon, and his dislike of the republic.

    but going back on topic. This final duel wasn't just a final duel for the sake of it. They needed to at least try to stop Dooku. Would it have pleased you if they didn't?

    It seems the best duels of the saga are in the odd numbered films 1,3,5...

    I just wish Obi didn't lose twice against dooku
     
  24. SambX

    SambX Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Apr 14, 2011
    Just two examples.



     
  25. Jedi_Ford_Prefect

    Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 9, 2003
    Was Boba Fett necessary to ESB? No. All he did was figure out where the Falcon was going, which Vader and his officers could've done with a simple background check of the outlying systems. Show up at Bespin, strongarm Lando-- all of it works without Fett. He's just there as a colorful, cool-looking villain, which is what Maul's there for, too. Well, that and to fight the Jedi, and kill one of 'em.

    The Battle of Geonosis, for one. And the Battle of Corsuscant, where he died fighting the Jedi. Besides that, we've seen him fighting and plotting with his troops (remember, with a droid army and whatnot you don't actually have to be in the midst of combat to direct them to their objectives, and most generals in modern warfare tend to sit behind safe lines, anyway). And again, by the time that Dooku dies, the war's been going on long enough for them to have back-up commanders to assume his position. If he'd been caught or killed on Geonosis, though, there was no such chain of command in place. Game over.

    Well, first of all, he actually goes to Tatooine, breaking mission with the Jedi Order to stay with Padme on Naboo, where it's safe (and where he's also defying the Order by romancing Padme). Then, when he finds his broken and abused mother and she dies in his arms, he slaughters the entire Tusken camp. He doesn't have tp relish murdering the women and children for it to be going to the Dark Side-- isn't murdering women and children quite bad enough? It was far "darker" than anything we saw him do in the original films (yeah, Alderann gets blown up, but that's Tarkin's call). Then in his confessions to Padme, he does list his ambitions for power ("You're not all powerful." "But I should be! Someday I will be... I will even learn to stop people from dying!"). He even accuses Obi-Wan of holding him back, paranoid. And when he declares his massacre, he emphasizes the hate. But even at the end, when he calms, he recognizes that he's going down the wrong path-- "I'm a Jedi! I know I'm better than this." It's all there.

    As BoromirsFan said, most of this stuff is implied, rather than flat out shown as the Anakins tuff. But it's not hard to break down. Dooku talks at length about the corruption in the Senate, and actually reveals a lot about Darth Sidious and how he's controlling the Republic. He just leaves out the part about the Dark Lord's secret identity, whi
     
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