Anyone else feel this issue with Attack of the Clones? Has nothing to do with acting at all.

Honestly I just wish Obi-Wan had not lost to Dooku in AOTC. I like the duel, but wish he had won. TBF he did better than Anakin, and Dooku was a Sith, but still. More Obi-Wan duels please!
He had to lose the second time as it allowed Palpatine to influence Anakin, without Obi-Wan getting in the way, Obi-Wan would have never let Anakin kill Dooku in cold blood.

 

I've always thought the AOTC duel was deliberately downplayed as to keep it from potentially overshadowing the ROTS duel, and Dooku from overshadowing Darth Vader, myself. The pre-release spoilers about it made Dooku come off as though Anakin and Obi-Wan had tried fighting Cthulhu; both were supposed to be unconscious and badly injured, and I'm of the mind that it was scaled back to ensure that everyone would be anticipating the Vader vs. Kenobi duel in the next film.

I've always wished the heroes had been split up for the duels-have Anakin go off and tangle with Dooku and lose, and have Obi-Wan pursue Jango or someone similar (Grievous? He was active for Geonosis according to the EU) in the droid factory and either win or fight to a draw.

 

it just seems like a waste to deliberately not try to outdo the previous duel for the sake of the next movie.

he didn't have to do another three-duelist fight ala Duel of the fates, but he topped it in a different fashion with Battle of the Heroes (Anakin vs Obi-Wan)

Episode II could have had a very abstract and different duel, and through this it could have topped duel of the fates.

It was abstract, for too little. Yoda was given the attention, but now his CGI looks shody in the duel and i can see Christopher Lee's stunt double aiming at nothing!

i also think its pretty obvious when it isn't Lee. There are wider shots, and his face blurs. Like in ROTS as well, but it looks alot more convincing than Palpatine's digital face............

 

I don?t see how critiquing ESB somehow exculpates the PT. I agree, both Boba Fett and tarkin are one dimensional. But they are not integral to the plot. Luke, Han, Leia, Obi Wan, Chewie?all had depth and development and actual character. And they are the key players. Same with Lando (and he?s not a major character). Dooku is essential to the plot of AOTC (presumably). He is leading the Separatists to what will be the great war of all time. He is also secretly working for Sidious to help this convoluted scheme he hatched work. He?s also accused from the beginning of trying to assassinate Padme. He?s basically linked to every major plot point in the film. And as a character, he?s one dimensional and basically a lackey. He has no explanation or depth to him.

Yes, he wants power. Yes he in some way wants to be good (of course this is after he just slaughtered an entire village). But going back to ESB, the Dark Side is a very powerful side of the Force in its allure. It?s like super dangerous for a Jedi. We never once hear Anakin mention it in terms of any concern about his own fall. Yet his fall to the dark side is the central point of the entire trilogy. Luke hadn?t even fought a Sith yet and Yoda was warning him about the Dark Side. It was already a challenge for him before he tangled with vader in ESB.

Just two examples.
[/quote]

Well we differ here greatly. For me, Anakin here is Darth vader. And he really was by the end of AOTC. Going by the films, once you tap into the Dark Side, it?s a wrap. You have given into turning to pure evil (Yoda in ESB). And certainly by the time Anakin decapitates Dooku, he is evil. So his regret is irrelevant because he is in the clutches of the dark side. Killing someone out of hate and revenge is what does it (going by the films). And he did that in spades. Contrast with Luke, who opted NOT to murder someone for the exact same reason (hate and revenge). And thus he did not go dark.

 

I agree. Boba was not necessary. But he?s also a bit character in ESB. He was not given the finale scene faceoff with Luke!! See his screen time matched his level of significance. Maul, given that his scenes, is completely underdeveloped. He is really completely unecessary in relation to the plot, yet he is the key character in the finale fight. It's again, just bad storytelling.

Well we can?t use Geonosis as an example because you are stating he was crucial before that battle. And we clearly see a confederation of planetary leaders who have the access to the droid army. What made Dooku crucial to any of this? Why is it ?game over? if he dies?? Do those other guys suddenly not know what to do? Their army is still there. The manufacturers are still there. Everything can just keep going. But my real point is as a character, Dooku is just woefully underdeveloped (like Maul before him).

Right. I know he?s dark and all that in terms of his look and behavior. I am just talking about the actual fall into the Dark Side. It?s just something we never see Anakin deal with. And he?s probably fallen by the time he?s finished the massacre anyway. But even then, it just would have been nice to hear him articulate the danger or vulnerability he feels to it. Or something. Since it happens to be the most central point of the entire trilogy. And we never hear his thoughts on it at all.

What makes it weirder is that when he gives his allegiance to Sidious, it?s almost like he?s just given up. He?s like a broken man. He?s not angry at anyone. He?s just desperate and puts his trust in the most deceptive man in the history of the universe. Is this how the Dark Side works?? Not according to Yoda. But again, since falling to the Dark side is never even addressed in the PT, the film can just change its meaning and diverge from what the OT said.

 

A movie viewer should never have to reference books or comics to know what a film is talking about. it should just be in the film.

And what issues were too complex for six hours?? I can't think of any film with an idea so complex that six hours of movie could not explain it. Any film in history.

 

What dialogue? Which lines? Where was this?

 

He has more screentime than Fett. We get more motivation from him ("At last, we shall reveal ourselves to the Jedi! At last we shall have revenge!"). We know that he's determined and loyal to his Master, right to the bitter end. I'd rather he be a mystery besides that. Like I said before, we don't need to know the backstories of Bond henchmen, and that's all he really is. That's all the smaller SW villains are.

You wanted battles that he fought in, and those are two (there's more in the Clone Wars series, too). And yeah, Dooku was crucial to the confederacy. So what if they have an army, if they don't have the political muscle and will to use it? Dooku was the attractive, charismatic face of the Separatists-- even the Jedi thought of him as a political idealist, not someone capable of underhanded murder or assassinations. He's liked, respected. And hell, as we see in the film, not everyone in the confederacy is gung-ho for declaring war on the Republic ("What you're discussing could be considered treason!"). Supposing that they continued the war without him, it'd be a sloppy and disorganized affair until Sidious was able to find a new leader for the armies, and that would give the Jedi perhaps just enough time to beat them. "Underdeveloped" as a character or not, his value in the war effort is unquestionable.

We hear his thoughts on all those things. We just don't hear him use the words "Dark Side". Read between the lines.

All why I love ROTS and the PT in general. Anakin doesn't get to revel in the Dark Side. He is, as you said, a broken man.

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. By that moment, Anakin has moved beyond hate.

 

I'm okay with someone being mysterious. But that does not mean they are an empty shell. They can still speak more than 10 words, show emotions, have an agenda, maybe even indicate what they are getting revenge for? Maul is just a weak character. And mind you, I like Maul. I completely dig the coolness of him. But in terms of his characterization in the film, it's just very weak.

OK, I guess he's important as a vocal leader but there's just nothing that says the operation shuts down because he dies. And its the Republic who start the war anyway. I just don't see why the other guys couldn't have kept the droid production, etc. going. Dooku though, is just another underdeveloped villain. We just don't get anything out of him. I still honestly have no idea what his motives are for what he does in both films.

Wheras we hear Dark Side like 50 times in the OT. It's really, played up as a major danger. And this 20 or so years after the Jedi are out of business. You'd think for the Jedi "in their prime" engaging in skirmishes every week, this would be issue numero uno. Especially for someone with midis off the chart who was prophesied to bring "grave danger." It's hard to fathom why this would not be a major aspect (and actually vocalized) of Anakin's development, training and subsequent fall. It's just a glaring ommission.

All why I love ROTS and the PT in general. Anakin doesn't get to revel in the Dark Side. He is, as you said, a broken man.

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. By that moment, Anakin has moved beyond hate.[/quote]

But who has he really hated? He hated the Sand People in AOTC (which again is why it makes more sense for him to be Vader at that point). But who else does he hate? Obi Wan?? Was Obi Wan the straw that broke the camel's back for his hate?? That seems bizarre. The OT set up a Jedi using his power to kill in anger or revenge as giving into the Dark Side and thus being evil. The

 

More words than Oddjob and Jaws.

Part of your confusion stems from how he's playing different roles within roles in the war. As the leader of the Separatists, his goals are to break away from the corrupt Republic, or take it down by force. As the disciple of Darth Sidious, he knows that this is just part of a master plan by the Sith in order to erode the Republic to a point where they can declare the Empire, and rule openly. As a Sith Lord, he's also secretly plotting to eventually assassinate his master (as all Siths tend to do) so that he can reign supreme himself, and perhaps this is where you can find overlap in his intentions. Count Dooku probably is sincere in wanting to fix things-- he's just going about the wrong way in doing so.

Again-- the difference is only in the words they're saying. So we don't hear "Dark Side" as often as we did in the OT (and unless you'd care to actually count the number of times we hear it, I'm taking your figure as an exageration). Instead, we feel it in a way that we only got in bits and pieces on Dagobah, Bespin and above Endor. The Dark Side is not spoken as often in the Prequels, but it is everywhere around our characters and their actions. Instead of hearing it, we see it.

Anakin seems full of plenty of hate, suspiscion, distrust and anger when the Jedi don't make him a full Master, and throughout the film. The thing is before he joins Sidious, he's bottling it inside. Repressing it. Trying to be a good Jedi, and struggling to keep up. And when he does turn, he's become such a twisted bundle of nerves, firing in every direction, that it'd be unwise to try and get any read on him, other than pure chaos. There's a bit of hope here, though-- on Mustafar, he's definitely full of hate for the Jedi, and all who he percieves to be his enemies. In that sense, he's begun to move back through the emotions Yoda traced-- if h

 

The way they've done the fight, of course. He said he just couldn't move his legs too fast. Either way, that's why I said they should adapt the fight to Sir Christopher, and not the other way around.

I agree. Although his hand movements are more related to fencing than in any other character.

 

The lightsaber is used more like a Japanese katana, than a European foil, isn't it? At the very least, I think that "Zorro style" would look a little silly in SW.

 

if it was done in a star warsy way it could work.

 

It would just look silly. At least we have one-handed fighting, along with the more traditional stuff.

 

it could work, in my mind they would have to tone down the obvious fencing part of it.

I imagine Raphael's fighting stance from Soul Calibur IV, its not a formal fencing stance.

Its somewhat slouched.

[image=http://www.supercheats.com/guides/files/guid/soul-calibur-iv/raphael1.jpg]

its nothing too fancy. The dueling style would be more slow and precise, but with the elegance of the PT. It would be like the middle ground of the OT and PT duels. Slow and with purpose but also with grace and finesse.

so its more of a variant of fencing in my mind.

Yes, actual fencing carbon copy placed into star wars would be silly!

Dooku's is somewhat like fencing, his hilt is even curved for precision. i feel his style is a variant of fencing in his ep II duel with obi and anakin. You can briefly see this style in the first strikes of their duel in ROTS.

 

I don't think he was up for it, regardless of what concessions they made for him.

 

Well, I do see explanation and motivation for Dooku.
He is described by Windu as a "political idealist", he is in league with business-men (now guess what does he want? Of course, lower taxes etc. similar to TPM). Furthermore he expresses his frustration with the Jedi ("The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.").
So we have two main motivations: Another political system and frustration with the Jedi.
Darth Vader is not more explained in the very first movie. He has some former relationship with the Jedi and tries to protect the emperor's dictatorship.

Yoda warned him in depth because he knew what happened to his father.
Remember: The movies are intended to be be watched from Episode I to Episode VI.
Yoda learned.
And I still think the line "I'm a Jedi" (he tries to be) "I know..." (trying to convince himself) "...I'm better than this" [(this anger, hate -->)path to the dark side]. I completely agree with Jedi_Ford_Perfect.

I always thought of the dark side/good side as a thermometer.
The more you use the dark side the more you get addicted and compassion dies.

I think it all comes down to perception. I do see things that you miss. I enjoy the movie, you don't.
It might be the other way around with ROTJ. It's just not my movie except for a few scenes (Emperor/Luke). You might enjoy it because you see something that I miss.
As Qui-Gon once said: You Focus Determines Your Reality.

I disagree. It's not bad storytelling because Maul served his purpose.
Maul is supposed to be Sidious' marionette. He has no mind of his own. Yes, he hates the Jedi (because Sidious told him). Yes, he wants to destroy them (because Sidious' told him). Maul shows us that there is someone (Pal

 

Maybe so. But that's not relevant to the discussion.

I'm not confused. I know what he's trying to do. I don't know why he's trying to do it. If his issue is "corruption" as people keep saying, why would he join up with the corrupt Sidious who is dripping with evil?? If he wants government reform, why lead a secession? And where is it ever said that he wants to assassinate his master? The only time we get this is when he is LYING to Obi Wan, as he pretends he's not a sith himself. His convo with Obi Wan cannot be taken seriously because we know he is trying to lie to Obi Wan. And if that is supposed to be his "character development" it's poor.

Why do we never see Dooku return to any of this later in the film??? After he zaps Anakin, why doesn't he tell Obi Wan the truth about everything? If he's really interested in fixing things, why send his droids to kill all of the Jedi (when they are vastly outnumbered?? Why not tell Yoda?? I mean certainly he had ample time during their mental battle and subsequent chat to say "yes, I left the Order but there's some important information I have to tell you. I'm a Sith! I know who the Sith Lord is! I know the whole plot..etc.." Instead he's just another lackey of Palps who is disposable.

But we don't see it. We just see Anakin going off to kill with the concept never being discussed. Was Anakin warned about this? Shouldn't this be like the No. 1 concern for the Order since Ani was prophesied to bring "grave danger"?? It's just silly. Every move the Council makes with ANakin ignores what they know about him.

 

Dooku has a degree of respect for Obi-Wan that does not extend to anakin.

Possibly because Obi-Wan slew his apprentices slayer, or possibly because his apprentice trained obi-wan.

He wanted someone like Obi-Wan to join him, not anakin.

perhaps he felt that since he trained qui-gon and qui-gon trained obi-wan, that they could see things similarly.

He was wrong.

 

In SW, "he is LYING" increasingly just means "he is identified as a bad guy".

According to you, but that's just more "teh bad guy = teh liar" and is not actually true in Palpatine's case. Palpatine had told him a total of zero lies by that point.

This betrays an ignorance of the actual content of the PT. YODA: Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side. ( TPM has equivalent dialogue. ) There are other examples which address deviations from the way of the Jedi.

Except it doesn't, so mere wishful thinking doesn't create an inconsistency from thin air.

 

What is this? Let's attack "AOTC" Week? I'm coming across thread after thread, bitching about "AOTC". What is this? Some kind of propaganda campaign to convince us all that "AOTC" sucks?

Cheesy poses and dialogue is a hallmark of the STAR WARS movies. All six of them. Why are you acting as if this is something new or only relevant to the Prequel movies?

 

They're comparable henchmen villains, and there's a lot of Bond-influence on SW (as much as, if not more, than Kurosawa or John Ford) so it's an apt thing to mention. But to keep it to SW bad guys-- Maul is just as thin and two-dimensional as Tarkin the Space Nazi or the Bounty Hunter With No Name. They're paper-tigers, there to put on a good show of evil, but not really there for any substance. Hell, even the Emperor in ROTJ was little more than a cackling imitation of the Evil Witch from Snow White-- it was only during the Prequels that we started seeing nuance to him. I'll take substance for Palpatine over Maul any day, thank you.

The phrase "if you can't beat'em, join'em" comes to mind. That's Dooku's approach with the Sith-- join them, and destroy them from within. It's more or less the same logic that Anakin has when he joins Palpatine, and in the end he is the one who destroys the Dark Lord once and for all. But it is a losing proposition, too-- destroying the Sith by joining them is a suicide mission, or at the very least doomed to failure of the "in too deep" variety. Dooku's like an undercover cop who's lost his way and become the criminal he was supposed to take down himself.

As for secession-- why does anybody resort to secession, really? Because after a while you get fed up with the old corruption, and see no other alternative than violent reprisal. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

He tried telling Obi-Wan the truth, but he wouldn't listen. Do you really think Mace, Yoda or even hard-headed Anakin is going to be more open-minded, especially after he orders his troops to murder scores of Jedi Knights?

Again-- if you need to hear the words "Dark Side" over and over again, the PT isn't for you. More is done here with the cinematography, the pacing, the mood, even the action set-pieces and design

 

The voice of reason at last! You would think that the PT hadn't been made by the same guy.

 

i don't think it was cheesy, just the comparison to N'sync was funny....imagining them there is.....