Anyone else think of Anakin(solo) when they read about Ben?

Anakin was the non-sneaky Solo kid, the "straight fight" one. He was also the internalized thinker, the one who kept his thoughts to himself. Jacen was the insecure, withdrawn one, who tended more to fall into adventures, than to go out and find them.

Counterpoint, Junior Jedi Knights despite being a Kid's book was fairly clear Anakin was an introspective and sneaky kid.

While Jacen Solo was repeatedly portrayed as a headstrong kid that never thought beyond his next action. I hesitate to say dumb but he was.

 

Ah, but I'd argue you're ignoring the importance of the Stackpole issue; he thought Anakin shouldn't be killed off. This suggests that the reality may have been much more complicated. Frankly, we have no idea how NJO developed as the series went on. Certainly we know that it had scatty development of plots and inconsistent character development, so why we should think that basic arcs are so interchangeable I don't know. I'm not suggesting that "it happened half way through", anyway; I'm suggesting that it was still open to modification, and that the series was, therefore, still under development even while it was being written and published. And Stackpole's quote evidences this.

McEwok: Sadly, I don't recall the context of the quote at all, let alone the setting. I'll try and track it down, but I recall a debate on these forums about it somewhere...

 

No, it suggests that he didn't want the "Heroic Solo" character killed off.

Not complicated at all, really.

I disagree. All it shows is that Stackpole wanted it to be open to modification. Anakin still died, remember?

Ultimately, you're right - we "can't really know" what happened. The evidence we do have, however, points towards - though does not by any means confirm - the basic plot having been laid down well in advance. Hydro suggested a while ago, and I agree, that the reason Luke is such a "do-nothing" character in the NJO is essentially down to the fact that in the "original story", he wasn't there at all.

The "basic story in place from the start" interpretation to be the most intuitive one.

 

I think you meant foment, there. To ferment the seeds would be to make them alcoholic.

 

You're missing the point: we agree that Anakin and Jacen's story-arcs were swapped in a last-minute piece of juggling.

BUT... Stackpole wrote DT and DT:R the way he did because he DIDN'T want them to kill Anakin. The Anakin there is NOT based on NJO-Anakin, because there was only the changing outline of VP to go on at the time. In fact, in large part, that pair of novels DEFINES Anakin Solo in the NJO.

In short, Anakin Solo's NJO characterization developed the way it did because at least one author (who at that point was on the plot committee) wanted to show how strong the potential of Anakin Solo - the pre-existing character - was, and what a bad idea it would be to get rid of him.

Mike was right. And what he did also severely weakens the "NJO Anakin is more about a plotline originally designed for Jacen" claims.

I think that Anakin's pre-NJO "specialness" was always different from Jacen's NJO "wussy" behaviour. My point is that Jacen's particular form of pre-NJO lack-of-engagement with the real world, fixated on stubborn pursuit of abstract concepts (making Tenel Ka laugh, light and dark sides of the Force) actually fits his NJO character better than Anakin's.

I think it's more "The instinctive, pragmatic Solo "goes" in SbS, while the insecure, dogmatic one goes on to murder a mentally-ill cripple and be hailed a hero for it in TUF."

Those terms are a little unfair, a little polarised, but I think that Anakin and Jacen preserved their core traits...

Anakin is introspective, yes. But NJO-Anakin is also pretty introspective. He doesn't try to force his burden or his views on others. What he's NOT is someone who openly obsesses about crazy things - making Tenel Ka laugh, how to beat the Yuuzhan Vong without fighting. Jacen was that in YJK, and he's that in NJO.

And I don't recall Anakin being especially sneaky. Examples?

What, like Belkadan in DT? Like trying to negotiate with Randa in Balance Point? Like almost getting himself and Han killed in a brawl on Tatooine in EoV:R?

Jacen is useless about actually acting, unless he's in a position where he's angry and threatened, in which case he throws the sort of Force-tantrum Anakin grew out of in as a toddler (BP, Traitor, TUF), and/or goes off in a berserk rage on a psychopathic killing spree (SbS, Traitor again, DW).

But he's not actually terribly good at coherent, adult action or inter

 

What, like Belkadan in DT? Like trying to negotiate with Randa in Balance Point? Like almost getting himself and Han killed in a brawl on Tatooine in EoV:R?


I'm talking pre-NJO. In other words, Anakin and Jacen's characterizations were reversed by R.A. Salvatore.

 

I know you are. I'm quoting examples of Jacen behaving in your "YJK" way in many of his key "NJO" character-defining moments!.

Sure, if the original NJO plan had been acted on, we'd have had Jacen introduced as the cocky one flying the Falcon a touch too hard, and Anakin as the introspective philosopher-apprentice.

But maybe that much had been planned when they were "swapped". I actually think they worked better afterwards.

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I know you are. I'm quoting examples of Jacen behaving in your "YJK" way in many of his key "NJO" character-defining moments!.

Sure, if the original NJO plan had been acted on, we'd have had Jacen introduced as the cocky one flying the Falcon a touch too hard, and Anakin as the introspective philosopher-apprentice.

But maybe that much had been planned when they were "swapped". I actually think they worked better afterwards.

- The Imperial Ewok[/quote]

They were swapped-and swapped badly. It didn't work. it failed horrifically in JINO's case. He didn't behave YJK-ish in the NJO, more's the pity.

 

So far as I can tell, Ulicus, what we know is this:

1) The original plot of the NJO was submitted to Lucas very late in the day

2) The original plot of the NJO had two distinctive major elements to it that Lucas insisted be removed; a) Luke's death, and b) Anakin's being the hero

3) Very late in the day, DR modified the plotline to accommodate these two factors

4) Luke lived, but was left badly-written throughout much of the NJO - with the exception, notably, of Stackpole's duology pre-SbS

5) Jacen became the hero, whereas Anakin the heroic Luke-style figure was decided to be killed

6) At least one author has indicated that while the series was being written he was actively developing the character in such a way as to make DR realise what a dumb idea it was to kill him

7) This duology was the first in the NJO, fundamental in developing Anakin's character

You see, I don't think we can reconstruct the NJO so easily as you seem to. What evidence do we have that a Solo was intended, from the very word 'go', to die in SbS? What evidence do we have that DR didn't keep Luke but also decide to kill the Solo they were now unable to use so prominently? In short, what evidence do we have that the roles had been defined to the degree where they were 'switched'? At least one of the authors, midway through the series, believed his writing could influence the decision, which suggests he was aware of some significant amount of debate (and he would be better informed than any of us on this matter, imo). The NJO was modified, and modified badly, on that we're all agreed methinks; but what elements of the original plotline remain? Hmmm, I wonder; what else did Lucas nix for the NJO? Thrawn..?

 

There's also another point that needs to be made here.

Just because their ARCS were switched - does that necessarily mean that their characterizations were?


Basically, we've seen Sue's (if memory serves) notes that Lucas said no to the "Anakin as hero" so they switched their arcs - but I don't ever recall seeing anything indicating that their characterizations were changed.

 

Wouldn't surprise me.

Right, I gathered that much.

Ah, ok - I see where you're coming from better now.

I remain curious, however. Can you really say that he wanted to show how strong the potential of "Anakin Solo, the pre-existing character" was, rather than the potential of the "Heroic Solo" concept they had going?

Do we have the exact quotation anywhere?

One assumes that he was aware of the swap before he began to write... and, since he was on the plot committee, I assume he was familiar with the "general outline" of each character's story arc too.

Is he specific about wanting to show the potential of pre-NJO Anakin? Or can it be interpreted that he was instead enamoured with the "Heroic/Pragmatic Solo" concept they had going, and thought such a character had potential beyond being a death that pushed the story further foward?

Can it be argued, at all, that he would have done the same thing for Jacen had the plots *not* been switched? (I'm genuinely curious)

If it can be argued that he'd do the same, then the intial point of Hydro's that I'm defending: that had Jacen died, people would be clamouring for his return, still stands.

If not, then it doesn't.

I suppose so, yeah. It definitely seems to indicate that Anakin Solo is perhaps MORE amazing and heroic than the "Heroic Character" was originally intended to be.

Perhaps you're right. I'm not certain I agree with you, though.

No, I think that's fair. I was trying to sum it up as the authors might have seen it, though.

Maybe you're right. I'd argue that the fact that all these things happened "very late in the day" is an indication that all the swaps were as quickly and efficiently as possible.

I generally consider characterisation pretty integral to a character's arc... but, yeah, maybe LFL and co don't. *Shrug*

 

Hmmm, good points...

 

I think to change their arcs you absolutely HAVE TO change the characterizations to match. If Anakin wasn't galavanting around as the next Luke Skywalker and was acting like Jacen, nobody would have cared if he had died. He wouldn't have made it as far as Myykyr, as if he tried rescuing Tahiri without using the force, he would have been dead there. Cocky, Anakin-Like Jacen getting captured by Vergere wouldn't have worked at all. Jacen wouldn't have listened to anything she said. That arc would have been a dead end. The only reason it worked is because Vergere gave a character, whom was having problems with Luke's view of things, another way to look at the force.

To me, Ben is nothing Like Anakin Solo. I know he doesn't get a lot of love on here, but I actually like him. For one thing he seems more in line with what a kid his age SHOULD be like, and another thing is that while the others chose their path, Ben clearly didn't really want to do the Jedi thing. While most of the blame falls on the shoulder of Jacen and his "Train a kid using your own deranged mentality" methods, I somewhat blame Mara (And to a lesser extent, Luke.)

See, I believe at some point there had to be a discussion between the two about Ben walking the Jedi path. Luke most likely was disappointed but figured he'd "Leave it to the Will of the Force." Mara, feeling that her husband would be disappointed if her kid became an accountant or something, took it upon herself to find some way to make Ben a Jedi. Noticing that he bonded with Jacen, she let him hang out and learn from him. Yup, the same Jacen that had some serious identity crisis a few years prior and the same Jacen that did some fairly shady things in the Killik/Chiss war. Yup, the same Jacen who quit the order to go learn from (And never really give a proper accounting of) any bozo force user he could find tucked away in the galaxy.

It's amazing to me that Ben, who seems to have had very limited contact with anyone but Jacen for the bulk of his Jedi training, is able to tell right from wrong at all. Even before ending up facing Lumiya in the Asteroid, we see Jacen make some very questionable decisions on Lorrd. So questionable that a young Jedi with as Red of a shirt as possible that was infatuated with Jacen was really not feeling good about what he had done over the course of a single day. It's possible Jacen got up on the wrong side of the bed but it's more likely that this was the way Ben saw him act at all times.

 

Can we get back on topic please?

Ben Skywalker and Anakin Solo.


You can start a whole Jacen vs. Anakin story arc thread somewhere else.


Thank you!

 

I guess you slept through the part where Carnage did exactly that, then, aye?

 

There's one big difference between Anakin Solo and Ben Skywalker: Anakin wasn't the only show in town, he wasn't being force-fed to us like Ben. People grew to like Anakin. Like so many posters tell to others who complain about the current direction DR has taken the novels, it's Ben Skywalker or the highway in search of non-SW books to read currently. There's no competition, no other choices in this age group and in this kind of role Ben currently has. And frankly, I don't think that benefits Ben's character or his popularity.

 

Sure did!

I had had enough by then and skipped to the "post reply" button.

 

Honestly, I think the Jacen/Anakin discussion's turned out far more interesting than the initial topic...

 

Sorry, Leia!

A sentence that seems ironic imo given LotF...

Anyway, off that subject once and for all, sorry. I don't read Anakin when I read Ben; I just haven't 'connected' with Ben to the degree that I did with Anakin, tbt, partly because of his mish-mash of characterisation between the LotF authors, partly because we haven't seen him grow enough. With Anakin, years had passed. With Ben, we've skipped most of his life and seen a few selected months.

 

First off, Nate Grey was one of the most unlikeable characters I had the displeasure of reading. An immature doofus, who would charge in to attack mostly innocent people, because he got it in his head that they somehow had tried to attack him telepatically ( or whatever ). Of course I only read X-Man shortly under Terry Kavanagh, when the comic sucked gravy through a curly straw, so maybe someone wrote that karking idiot better than Kavanagh.

Secondly, it´s CABLE, not Cabal. Bad Charles.

As punishment for bad spelling, go read Robert Weinbergs issues of Cable ( 79 - 96 ) so you can get an appreciation of just how good the character can be, when written in an excellent way by an excellent author. Or at least Fabians Nicieza Cable and Deadpool series. Also of the good. ^^

Magnus

 

I only think of Anakin when I read about Ben because Ben is Anakin and Mara's kid.
What can I say? Anakin and Mara go off to a nice stay on Dantooine, all alone, completely isolated on a wonderful paradise world(Until the Vong) and then about 9-12 months later, Ben. Mara simply used the force to delay the pregnancy to trick Luke.

 

^Here we go with the Marakin. It's possible but come on.

 

I agree.

Anakin would almost certainly have used protection.

 

Yeah, Anakin is smart. He'd use protection before getting it on with Mara.

 

Heh, that's right.