main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT AOTC: Canon source says Dooku wasn't the original villain, original was "very different". Any info?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Zikri, Oct 4, 2016.

  1. Zikri

    Zikri Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    This bit from the canon reference book "Star Wars: Absolutely everything you need to know" says Episode 2 didn't originally have Dooku, and had "a very different villain" in mind. I can't seem to get the image in my post so here's the link:

    http://i.imgur.com/ksmSBUG.jpg

    I originally saw this pic on Reddit, on the 'Darth Jar Jar' subreddit and they seemed to think it helps the Jar Jar villain theory. What I'm actually looking to know though is if anybody has any idea of who the original villain actually was? Could it actually have been Jar Jar? Or some kind of expanded role for Jango? Some new character that never got introduced?
     
    whostheBossk likes this.
  2. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Originally, before Lee was cast and Dooku settled on, a variety of concepts for Palpatine's new apprentice were created.

    One such concept was eventually reused for Asajj Ventress:

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I like Dooku a lot, but part of me actually wishes that it had been someone like Ventress. The idea just speaks to me.

    I can absolutely guarantee that Jar Jar was never intended to be a villain.
     
    Zikri, Deliveranze and Cryogenic like this.
  4. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Same here.


    Indeed. Lucas is making a larger point with Jar Jar. People now viewing Jar Jar as a villain, or the villain that never quite made it, is suddenly trendy after that Reddit theory from last year. But I don't think it was ever remotely the aim.

    Jar Jar rapidly went through a strange progression last year. He began it as the reviled clown that fans still love to hate, became a political dissident over the summer, and was a masterful Sith architect by the fall.

    Yes, this...

    https://www.wired.com/2015/04/radicalization-of-jar-jar-binks/

    Might have been the inspiration for this...

    https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/3qvj6w/theory_jar_jar_binks_was_a_trained_force_user/


    From the "Wired" link:

    Doescher treats Jar Jar not as an accident-prone cretin, improbably bumbling his way through the story as a combination of Caliban and the Fool from King Lear, but as someone well aware of what’s going on, gently nudging events in order to achieve his aim of a unified Naboo. The “Dramatis Personae” in Phantom Of Menace identifies Jar Jar as “a Gungan clown,” but that’s a feint, a way to undercut the general dread that Binks would appear the same as he did in the film. In Doescher’s version, rather than Jar-Jar’s exile being for continued clumsiness and stupidity, it’s for being a political radical.
     
  5. Master_Rebado

    Master_Rebado Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2004
    I like Dooku in general and C.Lee's performance was not bad at all of course.

    Maul would never have been convincing (IMO) as a leader figure of the CIS.
     
    Iron_lord and Deliveranze like this.
  6. Nehru_Amidala

    Nehru_Amidala Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2016
    It would make more sense it Palpatine was the true villain, and just manipulating everyone into thinking that Dooku was the "Big Bad", so to speak. That's what Sith Lords do.
     
    whostheBossk and Master_Rebado like this.
  7. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    I'm glad Lucas decided to go with Lee and Dooku, instead of female Darth Maul. AotC needed a more intellectual, verbal villain for a change.
     
    QuangoFett, corinthia, boonjj and 5 others like this.
  8. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    You mean a reliable source not a Canon source?
     
  9. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Everyone in AOTC is a villain....from a certain point of view.
     
  10. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016
    Having the man who murdered Qui Gon continue through the prequels certainly would have heightened the drama and made for a better story. Especially, if you had Obi/Anakin and the history that would have been there. Anakin/Dooku interactions always felt false/anti-climatic to me.
     
    Delta-7 likes this.
  11. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I suspect that's what GL was going for regardless of gender/look.

    EDIT: I did not mean to suggest that your post was sexist, BTW, just so you know.
     
  12. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    Based on the barbaric warrior look of the character in the concept art, I have a hard time imagining them as a political leader and public face of the Separatists. Just like Maul couldn't have filled that role. I imagine he was originally creating a character somewhat like Ventress turned out to be in the Clone Wars micro-series, basically an assassin like Maul.
     
    Master_Rebado likes this.
  13. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    It "certainly" wouldn't.
     
  14. Master_Rebado

    Master_Rebado Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2004

    That maybe so.

    However that has zilch to do with my comment about Maul being a convincing public face and leader of the CIS.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  15. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016

    Huh? Storytelling 101 says otherwise. Having the built in personal drama of Anakin conflicted for seeking revenge for Qui Gon's death, the only man who ever believed in him would have given him a much needed narrative drive in AOTC instead of the hollow encounters we got with Anakin/Dooku who shared no history or any sort of drama that made their interactions just empty lightsaber duels. Having Anakin finally cut down Maul in ROTS would have carried so much more dramatic weight and arc for his character than what we actually got.
     
    TaradosGon and Delta-7 like this.
  16. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014

    Agreed.
     
  17. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Source? There's no such thing as "storytelling 101". Whenever you create your own fictional story, you'll realize that. What you think is "better" is just that: what you think. Not a law or rule that others should comply with.
     
  18. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Ya as long as something is fiction you can do whatever you want.
     
    Emperor Ferus likes this.
  19. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Kind of doesn't make sense in a way? Usually an actor, especially one of Lee's stature just doesn't join the cast without knowing anything nor are actors of that stature asked to join the cast without something specific in mind...

    In fact I paused writing this post to take a peek in the making of AOTC book, and I think the book refutes what that little piece of trivia says... From the book "Mythmaking: Behind the Scenes Of Attack Of The Clones"

    The book goes on to detail how the casting director sat down with Lee and his agent, and Lucas later called Lee and asked if he was interested in the part. Lucas didn't have much to tell him about the character as he was still writing it, but, it was clear that Lucas had already ditched the female sith version and was heading in the charismatic gentleman version, hence why they went out of their way to try and get Lee to do it.

    So we have two different sources of information about the character Dooku. Yes, Lucas was toying with the idea of using a female Sith, but, it seems he changed his mind, wanted the bad guy to be something else, and than pursued Lee, to which Lee said yes. That makes more sense than Lee agreeing to be in the movie with no clue of who or what he was playing and than Lucas making the character Dooku after the fact because he had Lee.

    In the end, I am happy with DOoku, and really can't say what I would prefer as I'm not sure what angle Lucas was originally going to use for the female sith. I wouldn't have minded if the character Dooku was a female. I like the idea that an ex-Jedi was manipulated by Palpatine to join the darkside because he needed someone with a high amount of credibility to be the face of the Separatists.
     
    Zikri, Deliveranze and Cryogenic like this.
  20. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I believe that's what happened as well. Even interviews and BTS info at the time (both from Insider and SW.com) seemed to corroborate that.
     
    mikeximus and Cryogenic like this.
  21. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    Yep.

    A core idea with Dooku (and not so much Maul) is...

    Legacy, lineage.

    In the end, it was to AOTC's -- and the PT's -- benefit that Lucas went with Christopher Lee and a believable "elder" statesman/ex-Jedi separatist figure.

    Strengthening the links between Star Wars and Islam, Christopher Lee had even played such a character just a few years earlier (and it was the film role he was most proud of):

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0183306/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

    And that Dooku was formerly the master of Qui-Gon Jinn. Score another one for George's ingenious naming conventions and immaculate wordplay!
     
  22. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016

    Source of what? Obvious dramatic storytelling techniques that make character interplay and relationship more compelling? How about read Screenplay by Syd Field or Story: by Robert McKee or hell poetics by Aristole. Dooku/Anakin interactions were hollow/empty and lacked ANY personal drama they fell utterly flat because there was no history or personal conflict between the two characters. Hell I would have been for Dooku taking Maul's place in Epi 1 as long as it gave more depth to the interactions between Anakin and him in Ep 2,3.
     
    Delta-7 likes this.
  23. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Seriously? Your baseless claim that I called out. I would also advise you to search for the definitions of "subjectivity", "perception" and "opinion". You obviously don't have any familiarity with them
     
    Cryogenic, boonjj and SuperPersch like this.
  24. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016
    Baseless? You're not making any sense. Storytelling is not "subjective" if it was than a child could pick up a story and any nonsense would be emotional engaging and effective. I suggest you read up on some poetics and maybe screenwriting 101.
     
  25. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005


    We can't merely use Aristotle to understand everything about Star Wars.



    [​IMG]



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_School_of_Athens