AOTC Chapter 13: "Encouraged to Love" DISCUSSION

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Moleman1138, Oct 17, 2004.

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  1. Moleman1138 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2004
    star 6
    Until the release of ROTS on 5/19/05, I would like to discuss AOTC chapter by chapter on the DVD. There are 47 chapters to discuss over the next 8 months, excluding Chapter 1: Opening Logos, Chapter 2: Attack of the Clones and Chapter 50: End Credits.

    Each discussion will last 5 days. At the end of 5 days, the following chapter will be posted.

    Chapter 13: "Encouraged to Love"
    DISCUSSION: October 18, 2004 - October 22, 2004
    DVD TIME INDEX: 34:49 - 36:03

    Synopsis:
    The refugee transport flies through space. In the cargo hold, Artoo is getting food for Anakin and Padme. A droid tells Artoo no droids are allowed in the line. Artoo brings the food over to Anakin and Padme. Padme thanks the droid. She says that it must be difficult to be a Jedi to such a strict code. Anakin adds in about being with the people that he loves. Padme asks if he's allowed to love. She believe that it was forbidden. Anakin starts to explain the code to Padme and tells her the compassion is essential to a Jedi's life. In his view, Jedi are encouraged to love. They continue to talk about how each one of them has changed in the past ten years. Anakin says that Padme has barely changed and she's exactly like she is in Anakin's dreams. END OF CHAPTER

    Opinion:
    This chapter starts the Anakin and Padme section of the middle chapter. It's a short scene that moves their relationship from professional to personal. The first time they meet, it's professional. In the apartment, Anakin looks up to Padme for advice, now they're into personal matters.

    I like when Artoo gets the food, because it's a cross between the cantina scene when Wuher the bartender discriminates against the droids and also the scene in the droid chamber in Jabba's Palace. The droid reminds me of EV-9D9 a bit. Being a pushy droid that doesn't like Artoo.

    This is the first of many ships that Padme's on. They can't stick to one ship like in the OT, but being on the refugee ship is the perfect disguise. The backstory about Jedi and love is necessary and to see how Anakin twists the code to his liking shows that he thinks he always gets his way. I like at the end how they're talking about change. Padme said that Anakin has changed so much. It's like yeah it's a different actor. Anakin says Padme's changed so little. Because she only aged three years instead of ten. I do miss the nightmare sequence in this chapter. A recurring theme about the fate of Shmi.

    It does it's job. We stay away from Anakin and Padme for two chapters and it's enough to see some space, get to the point and have some comedy at the same time.
  2. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    While I like this chapter I think Anakin has gotten the wrong end of the stick when it comes to compassion. Compassion is pretty much loving everything, or having respect for everything. It makes sense then that compassion would be central to a Jedi's life. Not unconditional love, that's more of a defined love for a particular person.

    Maybe that's why he gets into this territory with Padme, his miconceptions about how Jedi are supposed to feel.
  3. MoD-Sith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2003
    star 4
    he probably fell on his head too many time durring his younger years in training.
  4. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    If I was Padme it would freak me out if a guy said he was dreaming about me. Like a stalker almost.
  5. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Like a stalker almost

    Almost doesn't cut it! o_O
  6. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    I said almost as it's not as if he follows her around
  7. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    I said almost as it's not as if he follows her around

    Just teasing ya Katana [face_peace] I agree with what you mentioned earlier on Anakin's POV :cool:
  8. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    I love this scene, it once again shows how Anakin tries to "bend" things to fit his own design (not to mention trying to bend Padme).

    It's very reminiscant of the "Guigon told me to stay in this cockpit so that's.." Anakin while at the same time - kind of laying the blueprint for his Vader-esque character.

    I think Hayden & Padme really pull this off well, when he says he's seen her in her dreams - noone's every been so blunt with her, it surprises her & is one of the things that seperate Anakin from all the other men in her life.

    In turn it shows Anakin really confides in her, he doesn't "hold back".

    Anakin bending the rules of the Jedi to his bending Padme-scheme is just pure gold.
  9. Panakas_Dawg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2004
    star 5
    I think the refugee ship is the most OT-like ship in the PT and wonder if that plays a role in why the OT ships look so beaten and used and cobbled together (well, besides the ravages of war that is).

    And, again, Lucas gives us a peek into everyday Coruscant life. Who are the 'refugees'? Where are they from? Where are they going? Why?

    So much going on beneath the surface.

    I also like the droid discrimination...funny when it's another droid that says it.

    And, as has been said before, Anakin loves to bend things his way, to reinterpret them to benefit only him.
  10. Phumfeinz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2004
    star 1
    I'd like to bend Padme.
  11. Aiwendil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 1
    I like Anakin's little speech here; despite the fact that he's intentionally twisting things, this does provide a unique insight into the Jedi code. What Anakin says is very Buddhist - he even uses the typically Buddhist word "attachment". In Buddhism attachments to wordly things (possessions, people, the self) are considered the root of suffering; but universal compassion is encouraged. The theme of attachments causing suffering is of course central to the whole saga, but here we also see the positive aspect of Jedi ethics.
  12. lovelucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2004
    star 4
    i'm still an optimist at this point in the movie - gee, maybe things could work out - even after the 20th time i saw it, i still felt the same way. natalie and hayden are very natural here, very subtle things contribute to the effectiveness; the semi-surprised look on padme's face when anakin said "the people you love" - she still doesn't see he's referring to her. she's surprised that jedi are capable of love when they've been forbidden to do so. and it's so much a heart worn on the sleeve by anakin-you're aware of how very young and inexperienced he is and can appreciate how much his character matures by the end of the movie. having said that - i do wish critics, including negative posters who describe anakin as a "stalker", could recognize what george and hayden have done with this character, all within two hours
  13. earlchinna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2004
    star 2
    "If I was Padme it would freak me out if a guy said he was dreaming about me. Like a stalker almost. "

    that's what happens, i'm astounished nobody mentionned the look padme give to anakin when he says that, and after we see him embarassed, realizing it's not the way to seduce girls! ;)

    btw i like the shot of the cargo in the space, as imo aotc is more a "planet" movie, we don't see too much space sequences, so this kind of shots are welcome
  14. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    In the scenes before this, the music was so quiet and in the background. Barely noticable. Especially in the library. Then all of a sudden the ship appears on screen and the soundtrack just goes psycho. :p It was a very odd experience in the theater.

    COO-2180 (the angry serving droid) was originally supposed to be an actor named Ian Watkin. He sorta had the Wuher look to him. He was originally supposed to say that line to Artoo. But Lucas decided it was too much like Wuher and turned it into a droid early in production. The line takes on new meaning when a droid tells another droid that there are no droids allowed at the buffet. :p

    The actual start of this scene was cut from the film. It was originally intended to begin with Anakin on his bed having a nightmare about his mother to which Padme wakes him up. This goes along with the scene later in the movie where Padme says "You had a nightmare again last night" on the retreat balcony. But it was decided apparently that we didn't need to see her first encounter with Anakins nightmares to support her later statement.

    Padme's headress was a bit distracting in this scene honestly. It was goofy looking for such a serious conversation.

    It was kinda funny hearing Anakin say he's had dreams about her. Had they kept the nightmare sequence in, her expression would have double frightening. :p
  15. Jedimancer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2004
    star 2
    I know I keep on saying this, but I'll do it again, I like this scene OK. It's a nice quiet moment. The "No droids", but with a twist, connection to the OT is cool and I like how the "romance" is handled in this scene. I also like Anakin's twisting of the Jedi code. And nice catch there on Padme's psychological reaction to Anakin's "dream" statement, whoever aruged that that was the first time a male had been so blunt with her and helped to separate Anakin from other men in Padme's mind. I'd never really thought of it that way, but I think it works.
  16. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    I really like the discussion on compassion in this scene - it's a theme in all six movies, and it's nice to have it discussed in this way. As several have said, Anakin completely misunderstands the meaning of compassion - yes, compassion IS the most unconditional kind of love, yet Anakin's love in this movie is not based on true compassion. Compassion is incredibly selfless, it's caring, considerate, gentle, affectionate and giving, but never selfish. Compassion is a very positive force. But the romantic love in the movie is very different - it's passionate, it causes pain to both of them throughout the movie (Padme is "happier than mesa seeing her in a longo time" at the start - at the end, she's "been dying a little bit each day" - all because of the pain of romance), and in Anakin's case, is very selfish. He confronts her, tells her how much he's suffering, makes demands of her, asks her to give up her career for him - these are not things you'd do to someone if you truly love them. Anakin never, at any point, tells Padme that he loves her. But I believe she loves him, in a truly compassionate and mature way, which is why I feel more sympathy for her in the romantic plot. Compassion is much more important in a relationship than romance, which is simply a means of drawing people together. Romance isn't true love, compassion is, and that's what this scene is about - compassion over attachment.

    Sorry to go off on a digression there ... ;) I'll talk more about compassion vs. attachment and romance when we get to Chapter 23. Forbidden Love, and Chapter 34. "You're Not All-Powerful".

    As for the rest of the scene, I love the hypocrisy of the droid saying "Hey, no droids" to Artoo - it's a nice parallel with the bartender in ANH, but very ironic in this instance.
  17. BombadGeneral Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Though it may sound stupid, this is one of my favorite scenes in the movie. It's short and to the point, but subtle and rich.

    Anakin here is at his most charming and open. It's easy to see here why Padme will fall in love with him (though I understand why other viewers have problems with the romance later). The sexual heat he was giving off earlier (and will again later) is dialed down and he connects with Padme on a purely innocent level (like in the picnic scene - another highlight for me as far as the romance plotline goes).

    Nonetheless, this also begins to show us Anakin's rationalization - the way he twists things around until he feels he's not breaking the rules. As was pointed out, he did this in The Phantom Menace too, and Padme will later take his lead in convincing him to go to rescue Obi-Wan.

    It's this attitude, the "I want this, therefore these means must be acceptable for attaining it", that slide Little Ani down the path to the Dark Side.

    Plus, I love the odd way Hayden says that word: "for-bidden".
  18. GRAND_MOFF_KEVIN Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2004
    star 5
    This was ok. I didn't really liked the diolouge but I liked the droid and Anakin bending the rules.
  19. Neo_Skywalker24 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2004
    I may be late on this reply, but Phumfeinz said it best! But seriously, it is hard to find fault with any scene in AOTC. I like the pace of these next few chapters which add to the depth of Anakin's ultimate descent. Did I mention that Padme is so "girl next door" hot?!?
  20. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    Hayden is HOT

    I used to have AOTC poster above my bed and his face was the first I saw.

    That headress thing she's wearing is there to disguise her as a refugee. you notice in the scene with Queen Jamilla ahe wears the same dress but it's got a kinda stole over it that drapes over her arms.
  21. Tokio_Drifter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2003
    star 2
    What I like about this scene is Anakin searching for ways or even 'openings' to 'touch' her or basicly say: 'I want you' (And not I love you!). But her shield is so thick and so is his (the holding back and the pain from the wound, from his mum) so they talk very indirect, in a 'safe' way, about love.

    About compassion and unconditional love, this is a very interresting discussion, since even in everyday life the difference between both of them are unclear.

    About the difference between conditional love and uncondtional love.

    'I Want you -vs- I Love you'

    As said before by another member unconditional (or conditional) Love is personal, and compassion is not. To me the uncondionality about personal love is that the love isn't based upon a reason which differs from the source, love itself, but based on 'external' reasons (Like I love you because you have such nice 'hair';))This is the problem with Anakin.

    The problem with Anakin's unconditional love here is the reality his love is very conditioned. It's possesive. He wants to love her for a reason which isn't exactly based upon love but based upon fear, control: He wants to fill or 'fix' the hole in his life, the hole which was created when he was seperated from his mother, and she is the closest 'thing' he has to a mother. What a tragedy.

    To have someone or to love someone, that's the question.

  22. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    I'm not even certain Anakin really knows what love is, until the moment he decides to save his son at the end of Jedi.
  23. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    As said before by another member unconditional (or conditional) Love is personal, and compassion is not. To me the uncondionality about personal love is that the love isn't based upon a reason which differs from the source, love itself, but based on 'external' reasons (Like I love you because you have such nice 'hair';))This is the problem with Anakin.

    The problem with Anakin's unconditional love here is the reality his love is very conditioned. It's possesive. He wants to love her for a reason which isn't exactly based upon love but based upon fear, control: He wants to fill or 'fix' the hole in his life, the hole which was created when he was seperated from his mother, and she is the closest 'thing' he has to a mother. What a tragedy.



    That's a very, very good point - does Anakin ever tell her WHY he loves her? What it is about her that makes him want to devote his life to her? No, he doesn't - his dialogue is all about himself, and how much he needs her. That's a good point about the motive behind love - how you could love someone dearly because, for example, they are especially sensitive, or kind - something about them that makes them special to you, and makes you care for them and want to always be there for them. Anakin's love is based on filling, as you said, a hole in his life. His love serves himself rather than serving her or serving both of them.

    I think compassion is a very important part of personal love, though, because it asks no questions and makes no demands - it accepts someone for who they are. Of course, more than compassion is needed - we can be compassionate to everyone we meet - but compassion is still an important part of love. :)
  24. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    because, for example, they are especially sensitive, or kind - something about them that makes them special to you, and makes you care for them and want to always be there for them.

    You mean like Padme is to Anakin in TPM ?

    You're definitely right about everything (Anakin latching onto father/mother/loveitem figures to fill his life) but the boy IS in love with her.

    He just can't handle those feelings very well.
  25. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    I guess so - but personally, I believe there is a difference between being IN love with someone, and truly loving someone. I think it's a subtle difference, and in today's society it's not often made, as society is always (wrongly, in my opinion) promoting romance and passion as the source of happiness. But I think the difference is that Padme LOVES Anakin, but Anakin is IN love with Padme. His love is based on romance, passion, possession, need and desire - hers seems to be based more on caring, compassion and devotion, wanting to be there for him and look after him.
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