AOTC Chapter 18: Meeting Lama Su DISCUSSION

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Moleman1138, Nov 11, 2004.

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  1. Moleman1138 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2004
    star 6
    Until the release of ROTS on 5/19/05, I would like to discuss AOTC chapter by chapter on the DVD. There are 47 chapters to discuss over the next eight months, excluding Chapter 1: Opening Logos, Chapter 2: Attack of the Clones and Chapter 50: End Credits.

    Each discussion will last 5 days. At the end of 5 days, the following chapter will be posted.

    Chapter 18: Meeting Lama Su
    DISCUSSION: November 12, 2004 - November 16, 2004
    DVD TIME INDEX: 42:11 - 44:00

    Synopsis:
    Taun We and Obi-Wan Kenobi enter into Prime Minister Lama Su's office. Lama Su stands up to greet them. Taun We introduces Obi-Wan to the prime minister, who then instructs the Jedi to sit. He does so. They talk business. The prime minister tells Obi-Wan that they are on schedule and that 200,000 units are ready. Obi-Wan is unsure what to make of it. Lama Su wants Obi-Wan to relay a message to his master Sifo-Dyas that the clones will be ready on time. Obi-Wan is baffled. Lama Su questions if Sifo-Dyas is still on the council. Obi-Wan responds that Sifo-Dayas was killed almost ten years ago. Lama Su expresses his sadness for the loss and tells Obi-Wan that he would have been proud of the army built for him. The Jedi is still baffled. Lama Su tells him that this clone army requested by the Senate is for the Republic. Obi-Wan is astonished. Lama Su believes that Obi-Wan is anxious to inspect the clones and leads him to the facilities. END OF CHAPTER

    Opinion:
    More Kamino. This chapter not only thickens the plot, but also flips it in almost every direction possible. We see Lama Su for the first time, who is a lot like Taun We. The Kaminoans are definitely one species that is incredible to watch: the fluidic movements, the soothing voices, the sci-fi look.

    We also hear about clones for the first time since ANH. And the whole plot around Sifo-Dyas is still in the dark and this chapter doesn't make it any more clearer, which is good to some degree. The fact of the matter still remains after three years. Who is Sifo-Dyas? How did this all happen? Maybe ROTS will answer these questions.

    I like how Obi-Wan lies or should I say this is another "point of view" of his. His character in this chapter as well as the rest of the chapters on Kamino help bridge Alec Guinness in ANH nicely. Ewan does a nice job in this chapter. In a complete CG environment speaking to characters with cardboard attached to hard hats seems difficult and yet everything seems so real.

    The whiteness of the office and Kamino as a whole is an excellent contrast to all of the rain outside. It's color imagery gone wrong as these aliens seal the ultimate fate of the Republic. Excellent chapter.
  2. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    I love the whole look of Kamino :D
  3. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    We can mos def agree on this one, Nameless. Kamino is surreal and took me further than what I could have imagined in a STAR WARS film. I remember the first time I saw it and Taun We walked up. I was like whoa! this is interesting. Taun We is fine too. Lama Su's voice is great also. You cant really tell if they are bad people or just doing what they do.

    In the trailer the Dolphin comes out of the water and I quickly remember a picture from my STAR WARS GaLAXIES art book. Ralph McQuarrwhatvers flying Dolphins. It rocks way out of control. And Kamino has my favorite colors. Blue, steel grey, and all the "cool" colors. Now that I think of it, Jango's outfit is a camo of Kamino. Its great and I hope they reprise it in ROTS. After all, there is reason to go back. Perhaps if we had some LORD style expanded editions we could see Yodas visit when he went and brought the soldiers back. Who knows, he may have had some form of trouble with the Kaminossians. Just dont harm my sweet sexy Taun We.
  4. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus/2014 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

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    Oct 30, 2001
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    The plot certainly does thicken. The middle of the movie went through numerous rough drafts. But with that came continuity issues.

    Obi-Wan says Syfo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago so as not to arouse suspicion from Lama Su. Later we learn Syfo-Dyas was killed before the clones were ordered according to Obi-Wan. Basically Lucas trying to tell us that someone used the name of a dead Jedi that couldn't possibly have done the deed. Well at the time Obi-Wan told Lama Su that he died "almost" ten years ago, he had no idea what he was covering for because at that time, he didn't know of the Clone Army nor did he know it was ordered ten years ago.

    So the dialogue doesn't make much sense. Oh well.

    Then there's the 200,000 units ready with a million more on the way. That's a tiny army to fight a galactic war. Maybe it should have been 200,000,000 with a billion more on the way. Though one planet producing so many soldiers would sound unbelievable. Maybe if there was mention of cloning facilities spread across the galaxy or something.


    Then there's the character of Syfo-Dyas and his name. It was originally supposed to be Sido-Dyas which sounded very much like Sidious to some who were spoiled and saw the original script name. Then Lucas changed it to Syfo-Dyas for reasons yet to be seen. In fact in the original script, I believe Syfo-Dyas was just a false name and not even a real Jedi. So when Lucas decided to make it a real Jedi, he knew he had to change the name slightly.

    Now who really physically ordered the clones. Later we learn Tyranus hired the clone template. Which means he was involved ten years ago. Then of course we have the erasing of Kamino from the Jedi Archives that could only be done by a Jedi. Which Dooku was. So did he himself order the clone army for his master? That remains to be seen.

    This chapter truly did open up a mystery that hasn't been resolved yet...


  5. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Obi-Wan says Syfo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago so as not to arouse suspicion from Lama Su. Later we learn Syfo-Dyas was killed before the clones were ordered according to Obi-Wan. Basically Lucas trying to tell us that someone used the name of a dead Jedi that couldn't possibly have done the deed. Well at the time Obi-Wan told Lama Su that he died "almost" ten years ago, he had no idea what he was covering for because at that time, he didn't know of the Clone Army nor did he know it was ordered ten years ago.

    Lama Su asks him if "Syfo Dyas is still a member of the Jedi Council" and Obi-Wan simply answers his question with the truth - Syfo WAS killed some 10 years ago.

    He wasn't covering anything, he was just answering a question.

    Then there's the 200,000 units ready with a million more on the way. That's a tiny army to fight a galactic war. Maybe it should have been 200,000,000 with a billion more on the way. Though one planet producing so many soldiers would sound unbelievable. Maybe if there was mention of cloning facilities spread across the galaxy or something.

    Well, this depends on Sidious's and Dookus plans. Did they REALLY intend for the Clone Wars to start so soon?

    Or did Obi-Wan just kickstart the process early?

    Overall a very great scene that's of MOST importance to the entire saga.
  6. rodman9866 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2004
    Once again, the mystery continues. First off, i tip my hat off to obi wan with his quick thinking and charm. if i were in his shoes in that scene i would have messed that whole scene up and given away my real agenda for being there. Obi thinking with his head and showing wisdom with his words he picks very carefully to say....mirroring his even much wiser self in ANH.

    to me that scene alone spoke volumes in that exchange of words between obi and lama. there is no doubt in my mind that obi could definately survive anything that was thrown in his way later as to be seen....and obviously he does (duh). for some reason he comes off as a street smart jedi lol; conversely, doooku comes off as a book smart jedi....studying all the old fighting styles of the jedi and learning ancient jedi secrets. in short, this short scene added much more depthness to obiwan's character and power.

    somehow, i think sideous' master plan is going as planned and not jumpstarted at all....can't explain why but just have that gut feeling.
  7. BauconBatista Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2004
    star 4
    Then there's the 200,000 units ready with a million more on the way. That's a tiny army to fight a galactic war. Maybe it should have been 200,000,000 with a billion more on the way.

    Damn, that's a good point... though I think two explanations are possible:

    1. The clonetroopers, being of Mandalorian heritage, are VERY powerful and intelligent, instead of being disposable like the battle droids are. This, of course, creates another question: if that is, then why do they evolve into pathetic Joe SixPacks in the OT? Perhaps the clones are "retired from combat" following the Jedi Purge, and are used to recruit normal human beings instead?

    2. There are far more clones in existence than what the Kaminoians would like the Jedi to believe, and that they are manufactoring more clones in other parts of the galaxy. Think about it(ROTS SPECULATION, BLACKED OUT FOR THE SAKE OF THE TRULY SENSITIVE): When the Clone Wars are over, the Jedi's numbers will have been greatly exhausted... but there are countless clones remaining, and they are abruptly unleashed on the unsuspecting Jedi, making the Republic's transformation into the Empire more convenient.

    Oh, and Kamino is the greatest planet in the saga.
  8. Nightowl TFN Timetales Writer

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    1. The clonetroopers, being of Mandalorian heritage, are VERY powerful and intelligent, instead of being disposable like the battle droids are. This, of course, creates another question: if that is, then why do they evolve into pathetic Joe SixPacks in the OT? Perhaps the clones are "retired from combat" following the Jedi Purge, and are used to recruit normal human beings instead?

    Two factors. One, the "Xerox" effect. Once the clone template (Jango) is dead, the Kaminoans are forced to start cloning the clones. Now, you can't expect a clone of a clone to be anywhere near as good as the original, can you?
    Two, the accelerated aging doesn't stop once the clonetroopers reach adulthood. By ANH, the Clonetroopers first created circa TPM are physically in their mid-sixties.

    2. There are far more clones in existence than what the Kaminoians would like the Jedi to believe, and that they are manufactoring more clones in other parts of the galaxy. Think about it(ROTS SPECULATION, BLACKED OUT FOR THE SAKE OF THE TRULY SENSITIVE):

    Palpy, if he plays his cards just right, makes sure throughout the war that Clonetrooper casualties are as light as possible while the Jedi casualties are as severe as possible. By the beginning of ROTS, there are gonna be AT MOST about 1,000 Jedi left. The clonetroopers, even with war losses, are gonna be at half-a-million and rising. When the Big Betrayal happens, with that huge volume of clonetroopers all surrounding their Jedi "generals," the vast majority of those Jedi literally won't know what hit 'em.

    Yes, the Kaminoans do make a lot more clones than just the clonetroopers. But as already established, they're mostly for either cheap disposable mining slave labor (shades of Blade Runner!) or one-shot mercenary armies for unscrupulous planetary rulers.


  9. lovelucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2004
    star 4
    the demeanor of lama su and taun we- should give us all something to munch on: statesman like, hypnotizing vocals intentionally misleading, lulling the listener into the assumption that they mean no harm. the kaminoans are elegant guns for hire merecenaries who will switch loyalties (?) depending, as dex said, on "how big your pocketbook is". watch how lama su flicks the tiniest piece of dirt/lint, something not pure and white, from his clothing. the colors (or lack of) of the environment reminds me of the ending of "2001" and the subject matter reminds me of aldous huxley's "brave new world". obi wan's gradual awareness of where this is heading is emphasized perfectly with williams' music - very foreboding. and this, even before he's taken to the overview where the hundreds of thousands of clones are in production.
  10. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    I always thought units meant just that - a unit of soldiers, not just a single trooper [face_thinking]
  11. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I'm pretty certain that's a single soldier.

    If we're wrong of course, than 'units' might refer to squads of ten, which would make the clone army very sizeable indeed!

    The 200,000 ready units would be equivalent to around 2 million ready clones, and another 10 million on the way, for a total force of 12 million!
  12. Darth Tunes SfC Part III Commissioner

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    Nov 26, 2000
    star 10
    one of my favorite scenes in the entire saga. :) not only does Ewan interact well with the cg, but whoever desgined the Kaminoians deserves a raise, they really looked great. i love how Lama Su expected Sifo Dyas to still be alive, since it showed how the Kaminoians are really focused on their work (becasue they could have easily had contacted the Jedi Council to update them on current clone trooper amounts). however, i'm about to contradict that statement, for if we get a suprise as to who Sifo Dyas was in ROTS, then perhaps the Kamionians were in on the plot, and Lama Su was fooling Obi Wan. nah, that probably doesn't happen. :p props again to Johnny Williams for more terrific music, for the Kamino scenes wouldn't be the same without that score.
  13. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    You guys' are missing the whole point of Kamino.

    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/neobaggins/taunweeee.png]
  14. Moleman1138 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2004
    star 6
    You're rotten NeoBaggins. Just rotten. :D Don't make me drool for Taun We. How can I stay mad at you you're great for doing that.
  15. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    I like the "That's why I'm here" line.
  16. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I thought I'd mention that the chairs they sit in are maybe the coolest chairs ever. They really don't look like you can sit in them, but somehow..they do.
  17. Darth Tunes SfC Part III Commissioner

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    i could imagine how cool it would at my house for Thanksgiving if i could greet my family sitting in a chair like that. :cool:
  18. Ker-Soth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2004
    star 3
    The chapter is great, the scenery is just awesome. I think it thickens the plot so much in such a short time you actually don't get the scope until you've had some time to think about it. Clones, a dead Jedi, all of it would be a BIG surprise had it not been for the title of the Episode.
  19. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    moleman1138, Hey, I try.:p

    Someone said "..Kamino is the greatest Planet in the Saga." Now, normally, I would have read that and my mind would automatically start scrolling through the OT archives for the opposition. I actually had to think about it rather than just having Hoth naturally on the brain. Kamino is super tight. Everything. The water, the Dolphin, and those cool-ass platforms. Its the most different area in STAR WARS, yet, its grounded with familiar elements like the STAR WARSy lights around the plats. And the STAR WARSY hallways. Lama Su is cool as a fan and I wont even get into Taun Weeee again. The rain? Kicks arse. Rain battle? Kicks arse.

    It would seem that Cloud City is a evil-twin of sorts to Kamino in its look and almost complete opposites. One up in the air, the other below in the water. One red one blue Both hi-tech facilities. Both have those cool platforms.

    But what is the actual Planet of Kamino? Is it just covered with water and the Kaminonians build structures forthemselves? Are they natives of the planet and are born in the water? Are the Kaminonians even water creatures? There must certainly HAS TO BE a large Atlantis type facility under the water. And if these guys were born underwater, their evolution to technology must have taken millions of years.
  20. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
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    star 9
    IIRC, Kamino used to be normal. Then something or other happened, and they had to build the platforms and undergo genetic selection to survive.
  21. Darth Tunes SfC Part III Commissioner

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    what, did a Kamino god give them 40 days & nights of rain? :p seriously, i've never heard that before. i assumed that Kamino naturally was a planet with rampaging oceans.
  22. GRAND_MOFF_KEVIN Force Ghost

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    Jul 4, 2004
    star 5
    Once again Kamino is awesome.
  23. Nightowl TFN Timetales Writer

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    From the Official SW Website's Databank:

    "Kamino has never recovered from the global warming that melted huge shelves of inland continental ice. Its oceans swelled, covering the landmasses, forcing the native Kaminoans to adapt. Their stilt cities echo their former land colonies, but are built to withstand the ceaseless storms that buffet the world.
    Though the Kaminoans turned to genetic sciences to counteract the hardships of the planet's environmental chaos, they are not self-sufficient. They trade their advanced cloning knowledge in exchange for vital raw materials."

    In other words, THIS is what the enviromentalists are on about. If those damn megacorporations don't stop burning everything in sight and spewing every chemical known to man into the air, our world will look like Kamino the day after "The Day After Tomorrow" -- a "Waterworld." ;)
  24. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    The only thing is, we wouldnt be able to ride on Dolphins under the freezing water. And if the Kaminonians were land aliens, how can they withstand that freezing cold water? They must be like JarJar where they can adapt from land to submarinish.

    Im scared of the possibilies of what creatures lie in our own oceans. Could you imagine the hidious things below on Kamino. *shutters*
  25. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus/2014 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

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    Lama Su asks him if "Syfo Dyas is still a member of the Jedi Council" and Obi-Wan simply answers his question with the truth - Syfo WAS killed some 10 years ago.

    He wasn't covering anything, he was just answering a question.


    It's confusing but let me try to explain. :p


    He doesn't say "some" ten years ago. He says "almost" ten years ago. Then later when he speaks with Yoda and Mace he says "I was under the impression he was killed before then." Meaning he thought it couldn't be the real Syfo-Dyas because he thought he was dead before the order was placed. So if he thought Syfo-Dyas was dead before the order was placed then he has been dead for over ten years basically or at least long enough for Obi-Wan to make that assumption without knowing specific dates. Now had he said that to Lama Su in their first encounter, Lama Su would have been confused since the order was placed ten years ago. With Obi-Wan saying "almost ten years ago" it just means he died right after he ordered the army in Lama Su's mind and thus doesn't arouse suspicion. Thus Obi-Wan can continue his investigation.

    When you hear the first line it makes sense and you consider Obi-Wan's statement to be true. He thinks it's the truth and doesn't know about the Clone Army. Now in the movie they do not state the exact age of the clones, but the script and all other sources (even Lucas) says they were created after TPM. Thus 10 years prior to AOTC or a short time after TPM and the failure of the droid army. So you think possibly that Syfo-Dyas ordered the clone army ten years ago and then was killed. But then later Obi-Wan says he was killed before then. The two lines just contradict what Obi-Wan knows and when. The second line implies that he was misleading Lama Su to cover his arse and continue the investigation. But at the time, why would he be covering up the time when Dyas died and coincidentally say "almost ten years ago" when he didn't even know that's when the clones were created or even that there was an army waiting for him.

    I just blame the rewrites. It was something overlooked. The second line "I was under the impression he was killed before then" is the one that did it. It was Lucas trying to tell us that the real Syfo-Dyas couldn't have done it. Because before the rewrites during filming, Syfo-Dyas wasn't a real Jedi but an alias of someone just saying he was a Jedi. When Lucas changed it to a real Jedi is when the continuity of that plot point was tested. Basically he wrote in that line of dialogue not realizing how it contradicts to some degree an earlier statement. It's understandable though. The script for AOTC really evolved during filming and in post production. More so than we had ever expected. It's not a huge deal and it's not like continuity errors are unknown to Star Wars. :p
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