AOTC Chapter 23: Forbidden Love DISCUSSION

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Moleman1138, Dec 6, 2004.

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  1. Moleman1138 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2004
    star 6
    Until the release of ROTS on 5/19/05, I would like to discuss AOTC chapter by chapter on the DVD. There are 47 chapters to discuss over the next eight months, excluding Chapter 1: Opening Logos, Chapter 2: Attack of the Clones and Chapter 50: End Credits.

    Each discussion will last 5 days. At the end of 5 days, the following chapter will be posted.

    Chapter 23: Forbidden Love
    DISCUSSION: December 7, 2004 - December 11, 2004
    DVD TIME INDEX: 52:59 - 56:41

    Synopsis:
    Around sunset, Anakin and Padme are enjoying a romantic meal. Anakin tells of a mission concerning aggressive negotiations, which is negotiations with a lightsaber. Padme laughs. Using the force, Anakin takes a piece of fruit from Padme's plate and places it on his own. He says if Obi-Wan caught him, he would be very grumpy. Anakin then cuts a piece off for Padme and sends it back to her. She stabs it in midair and eats it. They both smile. After dinner by a fireplace, Anakin begins to express his true feelings for Padme. He says ever since he's recently been around her it gets worse and worse. The fact that they're not together is unbreatheable. The stolen kiss earlier in the day is something that he hopes that will never turn into a scar. Padme becomes uncomfortable and backs away. Anakin moves closer to her. She tells him that they can't be together. They live in two different worlds. He's studying to become a Jedi while she's a senator. She says it is impossible regardless of how they feel for each other and does not want him giving up his future for her. Anakin becomes frustrated and speaks about wishing away feelings. He then says that they could keep it a secret. Padme says that they'd be living a lie and neither one could live with that. Despite his feelings for Padme, Anakin agrees to her wishes. END OF CHAPTER

    Opinion:
    This is one chapter that GL was not satisfied with; especially the beginning. The dinner scene is decent. The conversation and the flirtation does seem forced to a certain degree. I do like Grumpy Obi-Wan though, even though that just has me thinking of an older Obi-Wan.

    When I saw this a few years back, the fireplace scene bored me. I thought it had no place in the Star Wars universe. Even though fire is always around Anakin during pivotal moments in his life. I just didn't like the dialogue. What took me was the "I can't breathe" which of course refers to Vader. I also thought Anakin was forcing himself too much on Padme. The good thing about this is that this is one of the last times before Padme starts to slip away into temptation.
    Two different worlds seemed too cliche, like Romeo and Juliet. There's really not that much of a difference between the two organizations. They both fight for the Republic in their own ways. But what got me was the living a lie piece. I found that to be an incredible moment, echoing the rest of the film.

    The relationship has come a long way since the meeting on Padme's apartment. It's just perfect how everything works out. Obi-Wan's away, Anakin's at play with corset Padme and the entire galaxy has almost gone to hell as war is on the verge.
  2. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    One of the all time great Star Wars scenes - I could watch this over and over again [face_love]
  3. Mace Windy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 1999
    star 6
    ^

    Are you crazy!!?! Or just...horny.


    Seriously though, while it is far from my favorite chapter, I don't feel as though it is nearly as bad as it is made out to be. When I intitially saw the film, I didn't find it to be awkward. Afterall, we had yet to have seen how the upper crust of the galaxy would court on another, and discuss such subjects as lust and longing.



    :cool: Mace Windy,
    too windy for spoilers!
  4. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    It's pure Star Wars - a Medieval style courtly romance dressed up as a sci-fi space opera, rich with symbols and subtlety.
  5. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Incredibly powerful.

    And very reminiscent of Vader luring Luke in ESB (yes i said it).

    Anakin/Vader desperately trying to attain a person he desires (although in very different ways :p) and getting flat-out rejected.

    Both have highly excegerrated speeches and feature dramatic revelations, plus there's great foreshadowing in Anakins lines ("the thought of not being with you...I can't breathe!") and both completely nail their performances.

    Anakin gets more frustrated and desperate with each second while Padme remains the 'sensible one' and gently counters all of his advances (yes, the monotone acting was on purpose ;) )

    Beautiful scene
  6. Lando_Plenty Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2002
    star 2
    I didn't know George was dissatisfied at first with this scene..
    Anyway, I've loved this scene since I first saw it. It gave me the impression of a medieval knight pouring out his heart to the beautiful princess, which I found to be so very fitting with Star Wars. Anakin's soliloquy is a little too long, but I don't have a problem with the overall dialogue. The dialogue is powerful...it always strikes me everytime I watch. Even if you think it's bad you can't deny that it strikes you. :p

    "I will do anything that you ask" is one of my favourite lines.
  7. Master_Gallia Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2004
    star 2
    There's only one line in the entire sequence I can say that I hate. "I wish I can just wish....." ARRG!G!

    That being said, I loved that chapter. Probably because I can relate to Anakin's situation. Anakin is in pain because he doesn't have an outlet for his emotions. As far as Anakin's concerned he is truly in love with Padme. Remember how surprised and relieved he was when Padme expressed her feelings for him. Up until that point, Anakin's feelings were just that, his. This is also an emotional snapshot of the pain, conflict and turmoil Anakin has been in.

    I heard a line in a sitcom once. This guy said "You know you're in love when those sappy songs on the radio start to make since" I think that applies to these scenes perfectly. I say that I can relate because I know what its like to have feelings for someone and not be reallysure if they can return them. This can cause you to feel the need to hold back when you're around them. To other people you look and are acting awkward. But you are actually in pain trying to carry on as if everything is normal. When Anakin first sees Padme after 10 years, he seems to fumble over his words. But the moment she leaves the room, he sees an opportunity to "exhale" or vent to Jar Jar.

    Once the two of them are alone, Anakin takes a chance and opens up to Padme. He wins only in the since that she confirms that she too feels for him. But she's quick to add that they cant go down that path.

    Some other reasons why this is a powerful seen IMO are because of other lines in the movie. During the Zam chase Obi tells him to "use the Force, think" when he is ready to charge into the club. In the arena he tells Anakin to concentrate. His first response is to Padme's well being. During the Dooku chase we have the "put the ship down" exchange. All of this in light of the fact that Palps is the only one who seems to encourage Anakin to "trust" his emotions.

    There are moments like that throughout AOTC. This is why I HATE all of the "whinny punk" comments. Some people have grown too old for Star Wars and other forget or are in denial about what people feel when they are teenagers.
  8. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
  9. BauconBatista Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2004
    star 4
    Before the detractors come and tear this scene apart like Mel Gibson at a Jewish church, think about it for a moment: isn't it SUPPOSED to be uncomfortable? Imagine being truly alone with your dream girl, in a closed room, in a really intimate moment, with the opportunity to really make her yours... ahem, you know what I mean.

    And it isn't just that--Padme's been doing thankless public service while Anakin is being trained to be a stoic, emotionless warrior, with a master who begrudgingly took him on. Can you really expect them to get it on like Jack and Rose? ;)

    I think that THAT was what Steven Spielberg meant when he said AOTC was GL's best directing job.
  10. Darth Tunes SfC Part III Commissioner

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2000
    star 10
    Mel Gibson at a Jewish church

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh]


    anyway, this chapter is one of those you must have in the film in order to progress the love story, which is obviously Lucas left in, although he was dissatified with it. i never understood why Padme wouldn't be able to live the "lie" her realtionship with Anakin would be, since it's obvious she has feelings for him that really don't leave her (it's not going be too long before we get to Geonosis). i just feel for poor Anakin, poor guy just wants some love! and with someone as beautiful as Natalie, who wouldn't?
    :D :p
  11. Tatooine_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 4
    I could write pages full of how much I love the dinner scene between Anakin and Padme. It's just perfect.
    To me, this scene is an extension of the meadowscene. The playfulness is still there; again, Anakin jokes around, and impresses Padme with his skills. The scene doesn't need more dialouge, because the looks on Anakin and Padme's faces, highlighted by the wonderful score, say it all.

    I don't think the fireplacescene is as bad as people make it out to be. To me, the fireplacescene feels as an extension of the dinnerscene. It has the same color-scheme, only it's a bit darker, which makes the scene rather interesting for me. It's visuals are great, I love the way the shadows dance around on Anakin and Padme's faces (and yes, on her chest as well ;) ), and if you watch the scene without sound, it is still very clear what it is about; Anakin's rejection, and this is visible in the dark tone, and Padme's bodylanguage. I love how she backs down as Anakin moves closer, and keeps avoiding his glance.

    I also feel that in this scene, as well in the dinnerscene before this one, GL really nails the style of the old lovestories that he was aiming for. It's the setting, the costumes, and yes, even the dialogue. IMO, the other scenes between Anakin and Padme lack this feel, which I think gives the lovestory a bit of an inconsistant feel.

    I do think this scene could've been a bit better if it had been a bit shorter. Also, there has been a lot splitscreening going on, which makes some of the reactions Hayden and Natalie have on each other seem out of place, like the shot were Padme stands up saying "No, you listen!"; she was sitting perfectly still in the previous shot, and at first doesn't seem to respond to Anakin's "..listen to me." Also, if you watch closely; you can even see Anakin's jaw moving while he isn't even speaking.

    Not the best, but surely not the worst scene in the saga.
  12. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    At heart, George is just an old-fashioned, romantic kind of guy ;)
  13. BauconBatista Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2004
    star 4
  14. GRAND_MOFF_KEVIN Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2004
    star 5
    Well, this was ok. It's not as bad as it was made out to be but I wasn't overly thrilled with it.
  15. Moleman1138 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2004
    star 6
    I always thought dinner was the scene GL was unhappy with. I thought liked the fireplace, since this was where we got to see the excluse GL design of the corset.
  16. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    Very underrated scene, in my opinion. It's very uncomfortable to watch, with the lighting and the dialogue, which is entirely intentional. It's melodramatic, the acting and dialogue are cheesy, Padme is wearing a corset (the most obvious symbol in the book of being trapped and constrained) - and yet for me, it all works. I don't think Anakin and Padme was ever meant to be a romance we could identity with, like Han and Leia - it's not fun and quirky in that way, it's over-the-top and melodramatic. It's like Romeo and Juliet - there's no reason for them to fall in love, it just happens, with terrible consequences for themselves and those around them. It's typical of a lot of the difference between the OT and the PT - every story element that works out well and happy in the OT, works out sad and tragic in the PT. It was very brave of GL to do a romance in this style, but it worked for me. I know it didn't work for a lot of people out there, but oh well, that's the way it goes. :p

    It's also very interesting how selfish Anakin's dialogue is in this scene - it's all about him him him, how much he's in pain, never about her, how much he loves and care for her, how wonderful she is to him. Padme is more pragmatic and more compassionate in this movie. In fact, her love is very compassionate love - she cares for him, she wants to look after him and take care of him, she wants to be there for him. Anakin "loves" her (notice he never tells here this, though ...) because he longs for attachment in his life after the loss of his mother, it's an entirely selfish love. It's just destined for tragedy.
  17. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    Great visuals. Fire burning in the dark room. Good costumes especially Padme's.

    Nice music. Very moody with a hint of love and darkness.

    Good idea. Needed a romantic scene between the two.

    But terribly awkward to watch in the theater. The acting mixed with the dialogue just made the entire scene odd and hard to get through. Especially Padme's speech at the end.
  18. Taivasvaeltaja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2003
    star 2
    The dinner scene is very perfect.

    I didn´t know George was unhappy with this chapter at all - I thought he was very pleased with it because it´s the purest form of medieval and 1930s kind of overly romantic love stories that he admires. I´ve read that he wasn´t happy with the original dialogue he wrote and told the actors improvise - that´s where the aggressive negotiations came from, I guess - but that he was after all very happy with the end result. I think the scene is pretty much like Tristan and Isolde.

    This was a bit awkward to watch this in theater; I didn´t know what to think about this. But now it´s of course obvious that this style is all intentional. The corny dialogue is, again, wonderful.

    Also what Master Gallia said about the fireplace part of this chapter is quite true.
  19. Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2004
    star 4
    I actually really like this scene. The dialogue could use some serious improvement, I admit, but I try to keep in mind that these are young people who have no idea what the hell they're getting into. So I think it's more a mixture of purposefully bad dialogue sprinkled with honestly bad dialogue. This is on Anakin's part, especially, who has tried on more than one occasion to be poetic and just falls flat on his face. It's cute, in a fashion, there's a nice contradictory nature in his personality where he seems both shy and uncertain but is also pressing and outspoken because he feels the need to be.

    If there is one thing about this scenes that I really love, it's the visuals. It's very gorgeous, very intimate. It gives one a sense of claustophobia that Padme must feel around Anakin and his persistent affection. Notice the color changes, here, too. No longer are as sunny and colorful and bright as we were with the picnic and island retreat scenes. The tones are fiery, but dark, passionate and heady. These are two people slipping into something that we all know won't turn out well, and the darkness and fire of the scenes helps to reflect that risky aspect.

    On a final note, while I appreciate that people applaud Padme's rational thinking in a tough situation, I think alot of people overlook Anakin's moment of maturity here. He doesn't have a whole lot of them, but this is where it manages to shine through. Although he pushes and he pushes, when Padme finally breaks into her "living a lie" speech and starts to become somewhat emotional herself, Anakin backs off. He reluctantly assents that such is what it must be. Afterwards, until the Geonosis arena, he completely backs off and treats her as a lady. I always found that to be one of Anakin's few admirable moments.

    And while I'm on that, I should add that I feel people rag on Anakin too much. His chafing with Obi Wan's tutelage is natural - he's 19, for crying out loud! All teenagers argue with their parental figures. And while, yes, his treament of Padme is way too forward and a bit aggressive, again, he's 19, and I'd assume relatively inexperienced with romance. I mean...creepy as it sounded, Anakin has known from the moment he met her that he wanted to marry her. It's not surprising his emotions have only grown more compelling. Anakin, in addition to being a teenager, is a very passionate and intense man in general. We see hints of it even when he's Vader. While I do think it will be a major part of his downfall, it is intrisically part of his character, and not entirely uncommon for his age, either.
  20. lovelucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2004
    star 4
    both scenes are visually breathtaking (as in i can't breathe :) ) dinner at the oasis before reality sets in. flirtateous and welcomed from both parties. and humorous - anakin describing obiwan's would-be grumpy reaction indicating how developed their relationship is. liked the chemistry here even better than the waterfalls. those who criticize natalie's acting should watch her face throughout these scenes, well that and catching "closer" where she hits a home run. the fireside scene was awkward as it should have been with teen angst. very very ominous also - especially when anakin asks padme continue their relationship to deeper water while keeping it a secret and when she says she can't live a lie, could he? - the look on anakin's eyes - holy cow! THAT tells you exactly what he's capable of. i will defend george, natalie, hayden and these scenes every chance i get because i think so many people missed the metaphors, the intentional parallels to chivalry in language and actions. can not fathom those who say there is no chemistry between natalie and hayden. they are powerful and i believe them.
  21. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    The light, flirtatious dinner scene is rather like the appetizer for Anakin and Padme's courtship. The two characters have been toying with each other - testing the waters and but not really getting serious or facing their mounting attraction in any real, or meaningfyl way.

    The fireplace scene is where everything is laid out on the table. The fire is symbolic, not just because fire always signifies key important moments when Anakin fails, but it symbolizes their emotional states, which for a PG movie, GL wasn't allowed to really show anything sexy.

    The relationship between Anakin and Padme is parallel to a courtly love affair, back from the middle ages. If you watch Padme carefully throughout the film, she perfectly follows "the rules" and averts her eyes from Anakin's smoldering glances - because they make her feel "uncomfortable," when he first hints around his love for her she blushes and flat out refuses to meet his eyes, and when they first kiss she tells him not that HE shouldn't have done that, but that SHE shouldn't have done so.

    Up until the fireplace scene, Padme is doing everything that she's supposed to do to try to turn away a suitor who's beneath her or an inappropriate suitor (Anakin the soldier, she the royal of sorts - his commitment to being a Jedi and vow of celibacy/attachment is what prevents her from immediately acting on her urges. She staunchly believes in following rules because she's an honest woman.)

    The fireplace scene IS uncomfortable to watch. Anakin is an honest and generous person who wears his heart on his sleeve and throws everything on the line. We just don't see these kinds of outright declarations of love because it's nowadays not viewed as "manly."

    If you watch Padme during the scene, she's desperately pulling her face away from him, but is continually drawn back to gazing at his face - most importantly, she stares at his lips while he's talking. That, boys, is a true sign that a woman wants to be kissed. If Anakin had just outright shut up and kissed her at that point, she probably would've crossed over to the point of no return and embraced the lie.

    Anakin, however, gave her the opportunity to snap back to reality by his constant babbling. Padme the practical took control of her raging hormones and shot him down, even though, if you watch Anakin as he turns his back to walk away from her, her eyes widen as if to say "Don't give up now you doof - you HAVE me!" The image of her standing right before that raging fire, wearing her corseted black dress, with that long, chain-like necklace circling her neck is an image of her being chained and imprisoned by her emotions and her duties - they're chains in her own making. Whereas in the Geonosis ring, she breaks apart the chains put upon her so that she can actively pursue her love.

    Anakin, who knows nothing of love (they don't teach classes on how to courty women at the Jedi Temple) completely misses all of Padme's signals and only hears her rejection. I love the dialogue in the scene because it sounds like what someone would actually say if they know nothing about love and are trying, desperately to win the girl of his dreams. Even the "I wish I could wish" line is perfect. At that point he's utterly frustrated and not thinking straight. Does anyone speak in perfect, gramatically spoken lines when they're angry? No. Anakin's completely lost control of the whole situation and he's trying anything to get control again.

    Unfortunately, he also knows that he can't really do anything about it since during the course of his confession on the couch he told her that he'd do anything that she asked.

    She rejected him, and he has to accept that - which he does clear up until they're about to be executed and she finally confesses her love to him. Anakin has that defeated, moping teenager look to him whenever he looks upon Padme.

    Why does the dialogue in that scene seem forced or strange to listen to?

    It is utterly eerie because Hayden doe something that nobody ever gives him credit for. In that scene, he speaks
  22. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Excellent points PLJ.

    What I love about this scene is the visuals. Lucas is such a visual storyteller, if you watched it with no sound, you'd know exactly what was going on, through color, composition, light, costumes... he captured the feeling exactly right. Then if you add just music, that adds a whole other dark dimension to it. That they are expressing their feelings verbally is unnecessary, we already know exactly what they're thinking.

    As for the dialog itself, I prefer the version in the book or in the screenplay I've read. But it does its job fine. It really serves to drive this uncomfortable feeling home. These people should not really be together, it's a strong foreshadowy scene all around.
  23. Jumpman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    Absolute perfect analysis of that scene PLJ. If I was a better writer, I would've said the same thing.

    A very, very underrated scene.
  24. Arriss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 4
    Excellent points everyone. :)

    Although I enjoyed the fireplace scene in the movie I enjoyed the more detailed version in the book. It gives more plausibility (not that I needed any) to the romance between these star-crossed lovers (that so many want to reduce to lust, blah, blah?) I didn?t find the scene uncomfortable at all. As pointed out, how do you expect a young man to act who has no knowledge of how to court a woman? The tense body language, Padmé?s outfit, Anakin?s outpouring of his feelings, and yes, the fire. It all works beautifully.

    [wishful_thinking]Now if only I could trade places w/Nat in that scene? [/wishful_thinking]
  25. Moleman1138 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2004
    star 6
    Thank you for all your participation in CBC (Chapter by Chapter). AOTC Chapter 24: Obi-Wan's Report DISCUSSION will be made available 12:00 AM EST. Although the discussion timeframe has passed, you may still discuss this chapter at your convienience. However, we will be moving on to the next chapter.

    -Moleman1138
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