AOTC Chapter 45: Duel with Dooku DISCUSSION

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Moleman1138, Mar 27, 2005.

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  1. Panakas_Dawg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2004
    star 5
    Anakin: "I'm taking him NOW."

    Dooku: "Brave, but foolish, boy."

    Great lines, imo.

    I have been so preoccupied with Episode III stuff, I've forgotten how much I love these CBC discussions! :)

    I love the "tone poem" that Lucas was reaching for in the very artistic fighting scene - it emphasized that the duel is not just about the duel. It is about the conflict between two disparate elements in the Galaxy and the Force.
  2. lovelucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2004
    star 4
    people are underestimating dooku, just as anakin and obiwan do. this guy has history on his side plus a fighting style that the jedi have not encountered in a long time. and look who has his back - i don't think anyone, including ewan, wanted to see obiwan go out so early but it clearly demonstrates dooku's power in technique and that anakin's skill is now superior to his master's. and the encounter in the dark really adds to the ominious feeling that the good guys are beginning their trip to the sunset. agree with the padme/natalie scene - plus there is the problem with padme knowing where the hangar was - might have been explained somewhere else but i don't remember. plus, and this is just natalie's style, natalie has a running style that doesn't communicate urgency, sort of galloping.

    AND - nearly forgot this - the look on dooku's face right after he takes off anakin's arm/hand - what was THAT all about? he looks immediately regretful, like he should not have resorted to damaging the chosen one, that someone will have to answer for this?
  3. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    I always felt the Obi-Wan/Dooku part of the duel was poorly executed, mainly because we cut away and go to the horrible scene with Padme recovering.

    But I LOVE the Anakin/Dooku duel. It's kind of like a hypnotic dance, it's very short, Lucas calls it a tone-poem-But at the same time theres something really special about the way the lightsaber colours are used in the darkness. It's probably the most abstract filmaking Lucas has done since THX and takes him and us right back to his advent-garde roots.
  4. Thundercracker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 4
    The editing in the Obi-Wan & Anakin duels drives me nuts. There's a bunch of little jumps cuts that interupts the flow of the fight and creates instances of the characters being in different spots of the hangar from shot to shot. Instead of actually seeing the combatants fight from point A to point B to point C, we see point A but then it jumps to point C.

    There's two of these kinds of cuts that stand out for me. First is when Obi-Wan throws the blue saber to Anakin, he and Dooku are standing over Obi-Wan toward the back of the hanger then all of a sudden they are both near the entrance when Anakin catches the blue saber. There was supposed to be a short sequence where Anakin fought Dooku with the green saber before Obi tossed in the blue one.

    Second is before Anakin gets his arm chopped off. Anakin and Dooku are in the middle of fighting and then it just abrubtly cuts to the shot of Anakin getting sliced.

    I do like the sabers in the dark fight. But I do kinda wish the saber sound effects had been more pronounced so it would seem like they were actually striking blades instead of just waving them over their heads which is what it sounded like.

    This will probably always be my least favorite duel unless George reintegrates some of the missing pieces to smooth it out in a future edition but I doubt it.
  5. CBright7831 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2004
    star 4
    My favorite part is the duel in the dark where you can only see them from their glowing lightsabers.
  6. BigBadBenKenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    I'd probably say its the third best duel in the series (so far) and thats just including the final duels in each movie so it doesnt include the big battle in the stadium. I put it third behind TPM because Darth Maul with the double sided lightsaber and all his fancy moves were sweet, and the ROTJ duel because it had so much intensity. I really dont like Dooku and I really want to see Mace kill him in ROTS. Dooku took out Obi-Wan and Annikin to quickly but it was nice to see Yoda. Too many people were involved. I would have liked to see just Annikin fight him. But it was still sweet seeing Yoda fight and the two lightsabers was sweet but only lasted for a few seconds. Still a great duel but I think ROTS will have the best one in the saga.
  7. Deeysew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    The duels are less exciting now than they were on my first viewing, probably because Dooku's history and motivation is so muddled. The OT duels may be less dazzling, but they hold my interest much better.

    I would have preferred that this duel took place in that cool factory instead of some hanger miles away from everything.
  8. Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2004
    star 4
    Everyone and their uncle seems to communicate vociferous loathe for this chapter, but I find it to be a breathtaking scene of visual and special-effects poetry. Hayden is very good at projecting traits which would seem very much like those exhibited by a little boy (that is the point, I think), as he expresses an arrogance that appears to be simply misdirected anger and frustration concerning the events which characterized the preceeding sequence. I love the cocky, determined look upon his face as he disobeys his master's orders, shouting "No! I'm taking him now!" Ewan is a good foil here, as he is left with the difficult task of retaining a calm remove in the midst of the gradually collecting sense of peril which has begun to bleed through the edges of the frame. Obi-Wan knows that he is in over his head in having to confront Dooku alone, but since his padawan has already compromised the strategic nature of the (originally) proposed plan, there is little else that he can do.

    Christopher Lee has always been a wonderful actor, even in clunky, undistinguished Hammer pictures such as "Dracula A.D. 1972" (one of many films in which he appeared alongside none other than Peter Cushing), and here there is a sage playfulness evident in the actor's forceful delivery of Lucas' quietly sinister and declarative language. Lee is an actor whose voice resounds with a grand, undulating gravitas which immediately commands our attention; one gets the sense that he could recite the directions on the label of a soup can and make it as enthralling and rapturous for the listener as when delivering a magnificent soliloquy from "King Lear". I love the way that Dooku asserts himself to Kenobi: "My Jedi powers are far beyond yours; now, back down." right before unleashing a powerful surge of force lightning. When it becomes clear that Obi-Wan does not wish to acquiesce, Dooku ignites his lightsaber and begins to toy mercilessly with the Jedi, alternating between sarcastic barbs ("Surely you can do better!") and a confident, one-handed fighting style which perfectly exemplifies the fact that the Sith Lord does not feel in any way threatened by his opponent. Perhaps it is moderatley underwhelming to see our beloved Jedi get beaten with such ease, but I think that this had more to do with the fact that Lucas wished to impose three overlapping layers of aesthetic progression to the respective duels which occur in the Geonosis hangar.

    The highlight of the two battles which constitute the majority of this chapter is, of course, the abstract visual ballet which ensues as Anakin intervenes and prevents Dooku from killing Obi-Wan. The dialogue exchange between Anakin and Dooku, while dismissed by many, is, for me, a perfect "Star Wars" moment ("Brave of you boy. I thought you had learned your lesson"; "I am a slow learner"), one which is somewhat reminiscent of Luke's "You'll find I'm full of surprises" remark to Vader near the end of "The Empire Strikes Back". Of course, no one talks like this, but such is the pleasure of considering an ultra-stylized piece of fantasy filmmaking; we are freed of the constraints which bind us to the commonplace trappings that are rooted firmly in the everyday. It is admittedly "hit-or-miss", but if you are able to intellectually disconnect from such peripheral matters, the contextualized material is actually quite effective.

    Anyways, the Anakin-Dooku duel is astonishing; it is, I will admit, a bit unfortunate that it is so brief, and that we weren't able to observe some more extensive moments in which Anakin fights using two lightsabers, but nonetheless, the sequence is extraordinary. I don't care that the editing isn't perfectly symmetrical; that is part of the beauty of abstraction - you are liberated from the traditional parameters of sequencing and logic - therefore, the shots do not need to correspond to the regulatory applications of placement and space. The colors, disarticulated movements, and selection of shots create an overwhelming display of rhythmic visual majesty. Luca
  9. KennyT Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2005
    star 3
    WOW!! Tyranus_the_Hutt must be a writer or something. Great post. It is much better than my comments of "Me likey fight...Yoda Good."

    I practically had to have my dictionary open while reading your above harangue. Your diverse lexicon was almost as astounding as your sagacious hypothesis. ;)

    Just teasing a bit. Very insightful posting. It is refreshing.
  10. DeadDooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 2
    I dont see that as regret, I see it as exhaustion
  11. Darth Tunes SfC Part III Commissioner

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2000
    star 10
    G-FETT has it on the mark with this scene. I agree 100%
  12. Lord_Morningstar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2005
    star 1
    While I think that AotC is defined by lost potential overall, I thought that the duels were quite good.

    Personally, I find them more interesting that the DotF, even if less spectacular. In TPM, the three characters fight with almost identical styles; Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan mirror each other exactly when cutting through battle droids, and when Maul uses a single saber against Obi-Wan both characters use exactly the same moves in several circumstances. Also, I think that DotF is, a bit like TPM in general, somewhat contrived and artificial. Darth Maul just happened to wait in an alcove at the end of the hangar, behind which is a huge Death-Star like structure featuring ramps tailor-made for force jumps and the red force field of plot necessity. Not only that, Maul is defeated because he seemingly forgets how to fight for an instant. Personally, I believe that the effect of DotF is in the build-up, score, and cool-factor of the double bladed saber.

    The fights are short, which does bother me a little, but then four combatants need to get some screen time. I like watching the difference in styles; the circling and defensive Obi-Wan, the chaotic and aggressive Anakin, the economical and precise Dooku and the fast and acrobatic Yoda.

    Dooku is, in my opinion, the best swordsman that we have yet in Star Wars. Being tall and thin like him and a bit of a swordsman myself, I know a little of the strengths and weaknesses that the Count has. He isn?t especially agile, nor overly physically strong, but that is countered by his great strength with the force. See, for example, how he forces Obi-Wan?s saber around. The real advantage that height gives is reach; Dooku can hit his opponent?s vitals when they can?t hit his, giving him a degree of control. It isn?t especially apparent, but I?d wager that it?s there. Dooku doesn?t bother with fancy moves that waste energy for little advantage; he does not leap around spinning his saber like Maul, and he does not loose focus like Anakin.

    An easy weakness for swordsmen to fall into is that they strike for their opponent?s blades. Dooku goes for his opponents? arms and hands; a very nasty trick and one that?s difficult to counter. His moves are always sharp; he makes striking an art form and lets the force do the rest. He measurers up his opponents and fights them in a way that suits them. He taunts and intimidates Obi-Wan, capitalizing on the weaknesses that having a defensive style (and mindset?) gives him. He remains silent and serene against Anakin, winning though superior control. He fights defensively against Yoda, not taking risks against such a fast and dangerous opponent, and gets himself out of trouble by other means. It doesn?t surprise me that he has the success that he does.

    The editing can be choppy, which brings down the quality of the duels IMHO. Also, the score cannot match the scores of TPM?s and ROTJ?s duels. Finally, I think that the duel is weakened a little bit, as someone upthread pointed out, by the ambiguity of Dooku?s character and motives. Also, it doesn?t have the buildup of ROTJ?s and TPM?s fights; the action begins the moment the characters meet. Still, I find the ending very exciting and satisfying.

    All my opinion of course.
  13. Moleman1138 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2004
    star 6
    Thank you for all your participation in CBC (Chapter by Chapter). AOTC Chapter 46: Master Yoda DISCUSSION will be made available 1:00 AM EST. Although the discussion timeframe has passed, you may still discuss this chapter at your convienience. However, we will be moving on to the next chapter.

    -Moleman1138
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