PT AotC explanation??

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Point_Of_View, Jun 29, 2017.

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  1. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2017
    star 2
    I want to have missed something, but I think I've thought it through.
    Jango being on Geonosis with Dooku should have told the Jedi who created the clone army, right?

    This sort of wrecks the clone war entirely for me...

    Of course, watching the films ONLY you can get away with saying that the Jedi knew that Dooku was involved with the clones but
    1. they needed an army no matter what
    2. The clones fighting Dooku's Droid army made the Jedi at least confident enough to use them
    3. By RotS they had been fighting side by side for 3 years and have gotten used to them being good guys

    It's shaky, but it sort of works. Venture into the show or the books though and it all falls apart because the Jedi seem to have no knowledge that the clones were created from a man in Dooku's employment/that Dooku lied about not knowing to Obi Wan. (jango) or what that implies about the army and the war.

    Thoughts?
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  2. Emperor Ferus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2016
    star 4
    Even if Jango relocating to Geonosis proved that he was under the employment of Dooku and the Separatists, it doesn't necessarily prove that they ordered the Clone army's creation. Jango has probably worked for clients besides the Separatists in the past, and even if the Jedi found out, they know that Jango was ordered to assassinate Padme and that was already traced back to Dooku.

    Dooku definitely lied to Obi Wan, but Obi Wan didn't seem to detect that he ordered the Clone army. It seemed that he took it as a coincidence that Jango had been employed by Tyranus for the Clone army on Borden (which Jangowas honest about) and also by Dooku to assassinate Padme (which Jango lied about). Even Dooku's exposure as a Sith didn't prove that he was the mysterious Tyranus.
  3. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2017
    star 2
    But then you have the fact that Dooku was the obvious answer to who erased the archives.

    Plus all the stuff you said, while true, makes Obi Wan and the Jedi look dumb.
    I'm trying to find an angle where this isn't bad writing. I want to like everything about the PT, but I can't get past this.
  4. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2017
    star 2
    Although I will say that your answer somewhat satisfies me, I'm just looking at it very critically because I want it to be that well plotted.
  5. Emperor Ferus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2016
    star 4
    It may not be my place to say this, but I recommend as a fellow user putting everything into one post rather than two.

    As to your response, I don't remember Obi Wan or someone else figuring out specifically that Dooku erased it, though it couldn't have been anyone else. It could just as well have been Sifo Dyas for all they knew, they didn't know whether Jango or the Kaminoans were telling the truth about who ordered the army.
    The easiest answer is that solving the mystery wasn't their highest priorty at the time, seeing as a war was beginning and the Separatist threat was getting worse. Any army would have helped and the Jedi seemed to improvise on Geonosis. It's not clear whether or not they eventually figured out who did it.
  6. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2017
    star 2
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo-Dyas

    So Ferus, this link combined with what you've stated has made sense of it for me pretty well.

    Now the issue is why,according to the wiki entry, Palpatind hadn't had a proxy army enact his plan until he stumbled into a perfect one.

    What was his plan if Sifo-Dyas hadn't gone to Kamino?

    How was he planning to wipe out the order?
  7. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2017
    star 2
    Also TCW adds the issue of them figuring out that Dooku ordered the army + a clone went nuts and killed his general. They should put two and two together I think.
  8. Emperor Ferus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2016
    star 4
    The most likely scenario is that Dooku, possibly under orders from Palpatine, manipulated Sifo Dyas into supporting the creation of an army, as Dooku's untraditional views of the Jedi Order may have influenced his old friend to an extent. Since Palpatine never intended to take on more than one apprentice at once, he had to have planned to use an army against the Jedi. It's not clear exactly when Dooku joined the Sith or when he resigned from the Jedi Order, but by all accounts, he was strongly connected to Palpatine and dissatisfied with the Order and the light side well before TPM.

    It does seem in AOTC, that Palpatine's plan depended on a lot of things going just right, some by luck. He does have the Force on his side, possibly manipulating events in his favor.

    Hope that all helps @Point_Of_View and welcome to the boards.

    Edit: For all they knew, that one Clone could simply have been a rogue, and by ROTS, it may not have mattered to them how the army came to be. Their sole focus at the time was defeating the Separatists and winning the war. Perhaps that did blind them to what was in front of them. Just shows how cleverly Palpatine manipulated everyone. Even if they realized during TCW that Dooku had made the order (it could also have been Sifo Dyas for all they knew, and he wasn't known to have ties to the Sith or Separatists) it just would have confirmed their suspicions that a Sith Lord controlled the senate, though not exactly who.
    Last edited by Emperor Ferus, Jun 29, 2017
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  9. Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    star 4
    In an earlier incarnation of the script (I believe this was actually the shooting script), Jango told Obi-Wan that he was recruited by a man called Darth Tyranus. Yoda concluded that this Tyranus must then be a Sith Lord. Furthermore, Lama Su said that the order had been placed by Jedi Master Sido-Dyas, who was completely unknown to the Jedi Council ("Sido-Dyas" was in fact Sidious and this version of events was even shot and later changed during pick-ups).

    Still, they used the army.

    Why?
    Because they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. The Separatists were preparing for war and they felt a desperate need to protect the Republic. Without the clones, they wouldn't stand a chance and Dooku would be in control of the galaxy.

    This is still true in the finished film. For the sake of democracy, they choose to play along and try to unravel the mystery along the way.
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  10. Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2015
    star 3
    The way I look at it, it doesn't matter to the Jedi who the army was cloned from. It happened to be that guy who tried to assassinate Padmé. But does that make a difference regarding the army itself? Also, I was wondering why a bounty hunter was chosen. Sure, doing that job he would have to have fighting and piloting skills, along with many others, but would also be very individualistic. Does that make him a good soldier? Sure, the clones were indoctrinated to be good soldiers and 100% obedient. But then what was it that made Jango's genes that special and important to Dooku? Why was he the ideal genetic template for an entire army? This is the part that was never really explained. As was said in the movie, Jango was paid a lot. Why? In any case it would not have mattered to the Jedi one way or the other. The army was there, and did its job very well. Why would they investigate the individual that army came from?
  11. Tonyg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2016
    star 3
    Jango Fett is the bounty hunter who was hired to kill Amidala. And Obi Wan knows that Dooku hired him as he heard the conversation between Gunray and Dooku (I‘m man of my word and she will die). So the bounty hunter being with those who hired him is not so insane, right? ;)
    Now, to think that Dooku is the one who organized this with the clone army is insane from the in-universe point of view (not for the viewers as we know things that they don‘t). Why? Because CIS wants to go out of the Republic and want to do it in quickest possible way. So why give to the Republic such advantage to stop that? But let‘s suppose that Dooku changed his ways in these 10 years, I mean about the future of the Republic also. Well buy if he knew about the army why he never said a word? This army was “built“ without the Senate approvement. He would destroy it only by revealing it but he didn‘t. So Dooku is the less probable answer for them, that is the point.
  12. jc1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2004
    star 2
    I think the Jedi also leaned pretty heavily on sensing the motives/feelings of the clones in the moment (we also get this in the CW show, but for me it isn't as an authoritative source as the films), and the clones had genuine feelings of loyalty to the Jedi and Republic.

    The Jedi to me seem to be more "let's feel how this feels through the force," and "act in the moment with what is available," and not nearly so much about "can we paint a rational picture for this that covers all the bases?" We see this throughout the PT. The decision not to train boy Anakin, "feel, don't think," "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi," etc. Sidious of course used their belief (aka pride) that they were skilled enough in using and sensing the Force to detect threats against them.
    Last edited by jc1138, Jun 30, 2017
  13. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    At no point did the republic or the jedi inspect one of the clones to determine that they were suitable for a grand army.

    They would surely have been interested in their projected longevity, their potential for organ donation etc. All procedures that would conceivably have turned up the implant for order 66. There may even, conceivably, have been a desire for either the Jedi or the Republic to install an implant of their own, rather than rely on instant and enduring loyalty from the clones to people they never met before until they were taking orders from them on Geonosis.

    They just assumed that they were exactly what they needed.

    Presumably clones received medical attention if they were injured. It seems implausible that the implant could go unnoticed throughout a whole decade of war. Or that the republic and the Jedi might not consider approaching the kimonoans to upgrade the clones during the course of the war and providing their own specs implants etc.
  14. Oissan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2001
    star 7
    And your proof for that is?
    Sounds like a bunch of conjecture to me, with nothing to actually back it up.

    What makes you think that they never found the implants?
    Why would there be a desire by the Republic - or much less the Jedi - to install a different implant?
    The clones grew up and were trained to defend the Republic, the Kaminoans say as much. What makes you think that the clones didn't know about who they were supposed to defend? What do you think they were taught during training?

    The Jedi also didn't just assume that the clones were exactly what they needed, they did investigate the matter, but part of the plan obviously was that the Republic would have no choice but to use the clones. They were the only thing that stood in the way of an immediate defeat against the seperatists. It's kind of hard to unveil the truth behind a secret plan while you are busy fighting a war. Seeing how the clones proved their loyalty to the Republic time and time again, it's understandable that the Jedi put their focus on winning the war. There were exactly three options: a) take the clone army and try to defend the republic with it, investigate the origin of the army as much as the war permits, b) refusing to use the army, get defeated, have the clones be indeed an army that was supposed to destroy the Republic and the Jedi-Order, c) refuse to use the army, see the Republic getting defeated, find out that the clones were perfectly fine and indeed meant to defend the Republic.

    A is obviously what happened. C would have looked mightily stupid, B would be the equivalent of shooting yourself so that a killer can't do that. The outcome would have been the same, a loss for the Republic, regardless of whether they used the army or not.
    That doesn't even take into account that the Jedi have no means to get involved in the decision. It's the senate that decides to use the army, a senate that is already under the control of the very Sith who aims to destroy the Republic. All the Jedi could have done at that point, is to refuse to fight in the civil war. In which case Palpatine could have let the clones and seperatists fight, portray the clones as heroes of the republic, and eventually claim that the Jedi were behind a plot to overthrow the Republic, branding them as traitors in the same way he did in the actual outcome.
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  15. jc1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2004
    star 2
    Just because we didn't see it did not mean it didn't happen. The extra tampering/implant with the clones does not reveal the plan, and we only see that in the TV show. Only so much information you can put in a film, especially when the focus is on the main characters and not the clones. We also didn't see the Jedi scanning their ships for bombs, searching for hidden listening devices, and so on.
  16. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    And the results were what? That there was nothing at all suspicious, in spite of the suspicious circumstances of their creation?

    What I'm saying that is that I find it utterly implausible that the Jedi would not have turned something up or that they would be so complacent with and army created in their name, on a plane deliberately hidden. involving an assassin associated with the enemy of the republic, by people who claim never to have seen their customer (or any customers) in over ten years, paid for with money that this customer couldn't have had, and which could have been easily traced to an enemy or at least certainly duplicitous source, that they were not super diligent to the nth degree or at least take ownership of the cloning project if they were agreeable to the use of clones in principle.
  17. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 5
    how would they know Dooku was involved in creating the clones ?

    Jango is a gun-for-hire , he works for anyone , and he started the clone job 10 years ago . Currently he's had jobs with the TF and the TF have turned up to join the seps .
  18. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2017
    star 2
    Alright I figured it out.
    The Jedi don't know whether Sifo Dyas, Dooku, or someone else erased the archives and ordered the army. But its obviously not Dooku because there is no reason for them to think that he would give them an army to fight him with. Furthermore after 3 years of fighting, the Jedi, if they ever thought that the clones were duplicitous, have no reason to think that they would wait that long to do something, as opposed to any time in the past three years.
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  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10

    The Jedi know that Dooku was Tyranus and that he had killed Sifo-Dyas. But what the Council doesn't know is why did he kill Sifo-Dyas, other than to use his name. What was the point of erasing Kamino, if he was going to side with Darth Sidious and use the Droid Army against the Jedi and the Republic. As to what happened with Fives and Tup, the Jedi think that a virus was used on them and not that they were implanted with a bio-chip that would ensure that they killed the Jedi when the time came. Rex figured it out which is why he was able to convince Wolffe and Gregor to go with him and they had their chips removed.

    The Jedi trusted the Kaminoans because they did not sense any malicious intent with them. And they never bothered to have all the clones examined independently of the Kaminoans, which is why they didn't know about the bio-chips. After learning about Dooku's involvement, it was too late to stop the war and pull the clones. That's why the Council agrees to push ahead and try to win the war, before the Sith put into motion whatever their plan is.
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  20. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 5
    The point is that by the end of AOTC the Jedi are well and truly trapped.

    They ultimately serve the Republic. The Clones serve the Republic. They are the generals and the clones are the army. The Republic is fighting the Separatists.

    There really is nothing they can do outside of betraying the Republic and refusing to fight.

    Nothing that could ever prove without Jango. If anything the logic would be that if he really was all-in with the Separatists and it wasn't just all about the money then he would have told them about the clones.

    Maybe he did even but that in itself is the reason why the Separatists were acting up.

    There are a labyrinth of explanations and conjectures about who was on who's side and when but nothing that is going to change the fact that the Republic needs the army.

    Any Senate investigation was going to have a set outcome: everything is A-OK. Now go fight the war.
    Last edited by Qui-Riv-Brid, Jun 30, 2017
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  21. jc1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2004
    star 2

    This makes sense to me. There seems to be this idea going around for some time that the Jedi were the ones calling all the shots with the clones (and most else in the republic) from day 1 (probably due in part to how we see Yoda bringing them into the Geonosis arena and battle), but the Republic were the ones who accepted the clone army, expanded it, and the Jedi are sworn to serve the senate.
  22. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    Just saying "the point is" and stating what position the Jedi are in by the end of AOTC does not explain the seeming failure to perform due diligence. Nothing about the clone's creation was legitimate.

    Sensing no ill will from the Kaminoans doesn't justify not turning something up. I could believe that the Jedi could have been thwarted somewhat if the Kaminoans concealed or lied about all their dealings with Sifo-Dyas. But a compliant Kaminoans would surely have lead them more quickly to the truth.

    It's not the clones that the Jedi need to discover are duplicitous. Thru aren't duplicitous. The clones are "programmed" to obey orders and one order is implanted in them. It is the duplicity of whomever requested and financed the clones that the Jedi seem incredibly unconcerned with.
    Last edited by Martoto77, Jun 30, 2017
  23. Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    star 4
    It's one of the most sacred rules of the Jedi Code: "Thou shalt not look a gift horse in the mouth".
  24. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    I thought it was "You can lead a horse to water. "
  25. Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    star 4
    "You can herd a nerf to pasture, but you can't pull the ears off a gundark without a lightsaber."
    Last edited by Lulu Mars, Jul 1, 2017
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