PT AotC explanation??

But that ain't pullin', that there's slicin'

I can't explain why I went into that accent either

 

You can leave the force in darkness... but the Jedi must be dead.

 

The Jedi Council doesn't know for certain if they are or aren't legit after the first Battle of Geonosis. They investigated and determined that Sifo-Dyas had went off on his own, some time before his death and placed the order. They know that he was not given permission to do this, but that doesn't mean he cannot make a choice on his own. The only other witness that they need is a man named Tyranus, but for all they know, it is an alias. The Kaminoans claim to have never met this man and with Jango dead, they're at an impasse and the trail goes cold.

But they cannot find proof. That's why the trail goes cold. Even police and other investigators wind up having cold case files, in the real world. The results of not being able to find any link, or a key piece of evidence that would help.

 

Precisely. So their complacency is incredible.

Not in any Star Wars movie I know of. His name is mentioned but no evidence that this Jedi actually did order the clone army. Don't know what it has to do with the Jedi not realising that the whole thing is utterly bogus.

What relevance does this have to the Jedi not uncovering any leads or not refusing to command ill gotten clone armies until the truth is known. The idea of the galaxy using an army that it found left lying around by a renegade Jedi without serious reservations is ludicrous.

Which is utterly preposterous in this scenario, And incorrect.

The clone army, Jango, and then Dooku, the Separatists and the droid army factories on Geonosis are all uncovered by following the lead provided by a piece of evidence - the dart used to kill Padme's would-be assassin.

We're not talking about some unsolved case of a body that turned up somewhere. We're talking about a grand army for a whole galaxy that the galaxy never asked for turning up.

 

And either way, the Jedi decide to use this army to their advantage. The emergency of the separatist threat leaves no room for wondering how the Clones came to be, they are ready to fight for the Jedi and they need all the help they can get.

I don't think they cared eventually whether Sifo Dyas ordered the army or not, as long as it worked in their favor.

 

It would appear so in the movie. But it's still utterly preposterous. They have a chain of evidence linking the clones and the leader of the separatists, who is revealed to be a Sith.

 

Jango is a gun-for-hire , he'll work for the republic , the seps , gangsters , cloners , anyone . He's currently got work with the TF , which is hardly surprising .

There is mystery surrounding the creation of the clones , and the jedi could investigate it but the Sith will also be covering their tracks .

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So because Jango is mercenary, it's not to be pursued as supsicious that the "republic's" army was cloned from someone hired by the leader of the enemy of the republic and a confirmed Sith lord because the Sith are likely to cover their tracks. Even though the tracks have already been followed from Padme's would-be assassin, to the clones and then on to Dooku.

I feel like Marty Diberghi explaining this to Nigel Tufnell.

 

Because they have no reason to think it is bogus. There's no evidence that it is. All that they know is that one of their own did something before he died.

A few things.

1. The Council didn't tell the Senate or the Chancellor that they did or didn't give Sifo-Dyas permission to create the army. Just that there was one out there.

2. The Senate was going to keep debating about this, which is why Jar Jar was manipulated into giving Palpatine Emergency Powers, which would allow him to use the army. Yes, there was reservations. We see Bail look disgusted at this at the end during the clone parade.

3. The Jedi use the Clone Army because they have no choice. The Separatists are going to attack and there aren't enough Jedi to defend the Republic. That's why they tried to stop Dooku from leaving Geonosis, so that there wouldn't be a war and the clones could be put aside.

Said army existing because one of their own foresaw the return of the Sith and took steps to shore up the Republic.

After the Battle of Geonosis, the Jedi presume that Jango was hired by a man named Tyranus to be the Clone Army template. Ten years later, he is hired by Dooku to assassinate Padme, because Nute Gunray was embarrassed by her and wanted revenge. The Jedi don't think that Dooku is Tyranus at this point. They think that Jango only does what he does for money, which is true. They don't even think that Dooku knows about the army and he even pretends that he doesn't in front of the Separatist Council.

NUTE: "The Jedi have amassed a huge army."

DOOKU: "That doesn't seem possible. How could the Jedi come up with an army so quickly?"

When Sifo-Dyas Lightsaber and ship is discovered, they investigate again.

MACE: "Master Kenobi, remind the Council of what you discovered regarding Master Sifo-Dyas before the start of the Clone War."

OBI-WAN: "My investigation of the bounty hunter Jango Fett led to Kamino. The Kaminoans recounted that it was Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas who ordered the production of a Clone Army."

YODA: "Without the consent of the Council or the Senate, he did this."

MACE: "Prior to the blockade of Naboo, Sifo-Dyas sat on this Council until we judged his ideas to be too extreme."

PLO KOON: "Indeed, he said he foresaw a great conflict and that the Republic would need to raise an army. At the time, the Council rejected those ideas."

OBI-WAN: "Well, it's not the first time we've been wrong recently, is it?"

YODA: "The creation of the Clone Army, kept secret from us Sifo-Dyas did. How this was done we know not, yet now a new piece of the puzzle we have. Perhaps clarity it will bring us, yes."

Then they learn the truth.

LOM: "You have no business left with the Pykes, Tyranus."

OBI-WAN: "Tyranus? You are the man called Tyranus?"

DOOKU: "I told you everything you needed to know on Geonosis all those years ago, Kenobi. You should have joined me. Sifo-Dyas understood. He saw the future. That is why he helped me."


Before all that, the Jedi didn't see a connection between the two. They just assumed that Jango worked for both sides, at two separate points in time. He worked for Tyranus and then for Dooku and Nute. It never occurred to them that Dooku was Tyranus. Obi-wan is genuinely surprised at the revelation.

 

I'll just stick to talking about Star Wars films. In this one, the clones are made from a bounty hunter hired by the enemy of the Republic who is also creating a droid army. The Kaminoans say a Jedi asked for them. But at no point is that ever accepted by the jedi in the movie. Which is understandable because Jango is working for Dooku and fighting the Jedi. So they, like any sensible people would realise that the Sifo Dyas thing is bogus. Particularly since he's been dead for ten years.

I

 

Why would they assume that the Sith were behind the creation of the very army which is the sole thing standing between them and their domination of the galaxy via the Separatists?

The problem is you're looking at this situation from your out-of-universe vantage point. You know Palpatine is Sidious, you know the Sith are behind everything, you know how things turn out. The Jedi know none of these things. They have no way of knowing that the Sith's real plan is to take control of the Republic from within, using the war against the Separatists as a distraction. The Jedi are so caught up in their crusade against the Separatists that they never even consider that the Republic might willingly give itself away to the Sith right under their very noses. They think it would be utterly impossible for a Sith to subvert the Republic by any means other than brute force. They're blind to the Republic's weakness, just as they're blind to their own weakness--and don't tell me you doubt the psychological verisimilitude of such blindness. We see it every day at work in our own society, even coming from very intelligent people.

 

Why would they not see the connection between Jango/Dooku being involved in its creation coinciding with Dooku creating a droid army at the same time?

I'm looking at it from the vantage point of someone who isn't supposed to be as wise or intuitive as the Jedi who are nevertheless acting with utterly credulity, or complacency or sheer ignorance or a combination of both. The Jedi should be even more suspicious under the circumstances shown in the film. Not less so.

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That has no relevance to the Jedi being found wanting in the following basic logic category.

The Jedi know Padme was attacked twice. They know the would be assassin was killed by another bounty hunter before she could name them. They trace the enemy to Kamino. Discover that this enemy is being cloned to make an army that someone has ordered under false pretenses, are attacked by the person supposedly working for the Jedi via the Kimonoans, trace the enemy to Geonosis where the droid army is being created by Dooku and the separatists.

No mention of the Sith or Sidious being behind it. Doesn't need to be. The clone army is tainted by being created by enemies of the republic even though they are creating a droid army at the same time. But the Jedi just ignore this.

As it happens, Dooku is revealed to be a Sith during the ensuing battle on Geonosis. So the Jedi have that to put in the highly suspicious column. But it is quickly forgotten about too.

 

Jango is a gun-for-hire , he'll work for anybody , that's what people like him do .I have explained that more than once now . Jango was hired to be the clone template many years ago , it's not surprising that he has had other jobs since .

as for the Sith covering their tracks - I'm talking about investigations that the Jedi might do after AOTC , the Sith will naturally do things to cover their tracks .

 

It's not who Jangos likely to take work from that is the issue. It's the fact, known to the Jedi when they arrive at Geonosis, that he's working for Dooku, who is the enemy of the Republic.

Jango is not working for Sifo Dyas, by his own admission. The jedi know they did not order a clone army. There's no evidence that any Jedi did. No investigation is necessary.

The tracks followed from Padme to the clones to Jango and to Geonosis and Dooku's involvement in both armies is the plot of the film. Those tracks are not covered otherwise there would have been no battle of Geonosis.

 

I don't remember anyone saying he works for Dooku , he works for the TF , but even if he is working for Dooku , and I kinda don't know how to say this again any differently : he's a bounty hunter / mercenary , they tend to work for both sides , they're known for it .

the Kaminoans said he did .

the Jedi haven't seen the film , this is the fundamental mistake you're making , we know things the Jedi don't .

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Dooku is the head of the separatists movement the TF is a part of. Jango is not working for the TF otherwise they would be aware that a clone army is ready to fight them. Jango captures Padme and Anakin. Then defends Dooku and attacks Jedi in the battle of Geonosis. It is a proven fact that Jango is working exclusively for an enemy of the Republic to build a clone army. And not for the Jedi, by his own admission.

Who Jango is potentially willing to work for is neither here there nor there in light of the fact, proven without further investigation, that he IS working for the enemy of the Republic.

 

None of this is forgotten about. You're still missing the point. It doesn't matter if they see a suspicious connection between Jango and Dooku. The fact is, there's no plausible conclusion they can draw from that connection, and in fact the far more likely conclusion is that it's a coincidence and Jango's just a gun-for-hire. Because there's no way that Dooku being behind the clone army makes any sense as a conclusion unless the Jedi already know what's going to happen in Episode III.

The Jedi are wise and intuitive but they're also increasingly arrogant and blinded by the dark side. That's the story.

 

Isn't the clone army simply a win-win for Sidious?

Option 1: Use clone army. Have Sidious take over Republic from within Republic
Option 2: Reject clone army. Have Separatists attack and take over Republic.

Isn't it really that simple? You can try to have option 1b. Use clone army until they can be replaced. Well, how do the Jedi know their deadline date to Order 66. Is it 20 years? 3 years? 3 weeks? That would mean that using them for any duration would be stupid. Even if they went about replacing them, that would mean purchasing two armies. The clones and their replacements. And these replacements would be ready to take over completely in under 3 years? Not very likely.

Should the Jedi have been more suspicious. Yes. Would it have even mattered? No. Was it even really their choice? No. Their only choice was to leave the Republic. Or another word for leave ... separate ...

 

Option 2 wouldn't work for the Sith's purposes. Sidious wants to be welcomed as the legitimate benevolent ruler of the galaxy, not feared as a despot ruling over a conquered people. At least not initially.

 

I don't care who Jango is. They followed him from the clone factory to his actual employer, the enemy of the Republic. It's not a coincidence. That's like saying the Empire shouldn't conclude that the rebel base is on Yavin. It might just be a coincidence and Han isjust doing some smuggling on Yavin, because he'll work for anyone.

It is immaterial how implausible it might seem. There is concrete proof that Dooku is making the clones from Jango.

Still need a clone army after all that due to war breaking out? Fine. Just don't carry on as if there's no connection to Dooku, which there categorically is. Ensure that the clones are loyal only to the Jedi, just in case.

A simple case of checks and balances.

 

As has already been pointed out, Jango was hired for the clone job almost ten years ago, while his involvement with the Separatists is much more recent (since they didn't exist until recently). That and the fact that the Separatists logically shouldn't want the Republic to have an army is enough reason not to suspect Dooku.

 

No, there isn't. That's literally not what "concrete proof" means, dude. There's only "concrete proof" that Jango works for the Kaminoans and that he also works for Dooku. And there are two ways to explain this set of circumstances:

1) Dooku is, for some inexplicable reason, involved in the creation of an army which is totally opposed to his current goals, which he would have no conceivable motive to have ever created in the first place, and which he made no effort in ten years to either neutralize or shut down, or

2) It's a coincidence. Jango is a highly-skilled and in-demand warrior with a mercenary mindset who was hired to be the template for the clone army, and then a full decade later was hired by Count Dooku to carry out a political assassination, his divided loyalties unknown to either side.

Given that number 1 makes no sense, and number 2 make perfect sense, I'd go with number 2 if I were the Jedi. Coincidences do occur, you know. That's why we have a word for them.

There's no reason to think the clone army is connected to Dooku. Because that wouldn't make one lick of sense, unless the Jedi somehow happened to have access to the Episode III Blu-ray.

And how do you propose the Jedi go about making sure the clones are loyal to the Jedi? Maybe they should ask them? Gee, I wonder if they did that.

 

Just plain wrong. By your logic there was no reason for Obi Wan to ever follow Jango to Kamino in order to find out more about the attempts on Padme's death, since he works for everybody.

And he definitely should not have given pursuit after Jango attacked him on Kamino. Because he could just as easily have been working for the Jedi at that time (even though he previously admitted not to be. He was hired by Lord Tyranus to make the clones.). So nothing to necessarily be suspicious about.

I think there's no point in discussing it further with you.

 

Just seems like the wrong conclusions are being made.

Let's take the idea that the Jedi were suspicious about the clone army. Even without tracing Jango back to Dooku and the Separatists, they should have been. I really think arguing this angle with Martoto77 is being too defensive of the movie. Concrete proof is an exaggeration, but incredibly damning circumstantial evidence is not.

So the obvious first thing to investigate after the Battle of Geonosis is questioning the Kaminoans. Describe Sifo Diyas. If the clone order was for the Jedi, why was there not a single attempt at direct contact in those 10 years. Give us the full breakdown of the production process. Has it changed since inception? Who do they ultimately listen to in terms of chain of command? Can somebody that isn't a Jedi command them to do something that is at odds with Jedi commands? Etc, etc.

Now let's say the Kaminoans just straight up tell them "they have a fail safe implant with a list of orders. Here's the list of orders." When they get to Order 66, the Kaminoans say they are just building to the specs requested by Sifo Diyas. Somebody considers the Lost Twenty and Dooku and might actually decide it isn't a horrible idea to be able to neutralize a rogue Jedi General if they flipped and used their Clone squad against the Jedi and Republic. Even if the Kaminoans state the Republic leadership can make the command, they might defer to the fact that they serve the Republic. It might even raise eyebrows in the Republic Senate if the Jedi petitioned to have the Order removed or just taken out of the hands of the Republic leadership. How would you feel if a General of your nation's army requested control over the military with no civilian leadership oversight?

Had Mace not decided to make himself judge, jury and executioner, the Senate would have seriously questioned the Chancellor's call to simply kill off the Jedi without damning evidence such as the audio of Mace's coup attempt. In a sense, the Jedi finally putting the pieces together was their undoing. Dooku being an "alleged" former Jedi was their undoing. Everything was orchestrated to make it look like the Jedi orchestrated a fake war to stage a military coup.

Palps probably had a contingency for every stage of the game. Perhaps he had an Order 43 to arrest the Senate. The Jedi use the clones on Geonosis, but then refuse to use them after the rescue. Palps sets off Order 43. Dooku sweeps in to save the day with the Separatists. Palps gives a speech that Dooku wasn't the enemy, but has insider evidence that the Jedi were plotting this take over for a long time. After some hearings they find hidden records that Dooku did in fact tell Valorum, but Valorum dismissed it out of hand and buried that evidence. That's why Dooku had to prepare his contingency plan. Martial law is declared as an unending State of Emergency (and Empire reorganization) as the Jedi become outlaws.

There really are so many ways this could have played out. Part of the core of that plan is that Palps was in control of both armies, so never in real danger.

 

Well this is the problem with most discussions, I find, Jester J Binks. The desire to uphold what's said and done in these films, particularly by the Jedi council/order, as the unequivocal truth or the only conceivable course of action to be taken or attitude to be held, without any possible reproach ever coming their way.