PT AotC explanation??

If you keep saying that the Jedi had no choice but to not be suspicious, without any hint of them beginning the process of being suspicious, then what you're actually doing is demonstrating that toy have no conception of or no desire to consider any other possible course of action.

What's the difference between not seeing danger and seeing the danger the dark side enveloping everything so they can't see it? How does that excuse the Jedi from taking the path of least resistance and blithely positioning themselves and the highly suspicious clone army in an extremely precarious position, purely on faith?

Nobody raises doubts. Not the republic who didn't ask for an army to be cloned from a bounty hunter and not the Jedi who didn't task this to Sifo-Dyas, whom the Kaminoans only claim requested (and paid for) the army on behalf of the Republic. Since the Kaminoans keep to themselves so much, it would seem that anyone could pretend to be a Jedi and they would be none the wiser.
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No one's ever argued the Jedi had no choice but to not be suspicious. They clearly are suspicious. But that doesn't matter, because they need an army and they need it now, the army could have been ordered by Sifo-Dyas, and it isn't even their choice anyway.

What you're hung up on is that you think they should have specifically been suspicious that Count Dooku himself commissioned the army, when that makes absolutely no sense and no reasonable human being would draw such a conclusion. Especially since, even if he did, why would that matter? He obviously must have done it during a dissociative fit of madness and counterproductively doomed his own movement in the process. Might as well take advantage of it in that case.

But no, you think it's only reasonable for the Jedi to have assumed that the Sith commissioned the army as part of a convoluted false flag operation designed to accrue power to the democratically elected Supreme Chancellor (who is secretly one of two at-large members of a sinister millennia-old Satanic cult bent on galactic domination despite outwardly appearing as nothing but a frail, kindly old man) before manipulating the Jedi into attempting a government coup and using it as a pretext to issue a mass order to the clones activating subliminal programming telling them to turn on their Jedi comrades, leading to the subsequent declaration of a Galactic Empire which is responded to not with resistance by the democratically elected senate (as one might reasonably expect) but rather with thunderous applause. Any idiot could have figured all that out.

 

There's no convincing demonstration that they are suspicious either collectively or individually. All that we get is Yoda's "not victory". And he's not casting suspicion on the clones. Only the commencements of hostilities.

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That's not a credible reason for the lack of perseverance with any diligence which is negligible to begin with

That is not credible either. Sounds like anyone can go to Kamino and order thousands of clones and as long as they tell the Kaminoans it's for the republic then it's no sweat. And, provided no-one is building an army to meet it (or if they are controlling that army too), that person can take over the galaxy. Simples.

No, it's that no diligence appears to have been carried out even after the only tangible connection between the clone army and anyone is Dooku via Jango. The republic did not ask for the clone army. The Jedi did not assign Sifo Dyas to request one in secret from themselves and the republic. Therefore the army is already suspicious. The tangible link to Geonosis should cast that suspicion on the conspirators found there, especially Dooku.

And the conclusion that the unsolicited clone army built under false pretenses requires no further due diligence is utterly preposterous and reckless. Regardless of the need for an army that coincides at this point.

Make advantage of what? An army that the republic have to take the word of the Kaminoans that they are loyal to the republic who didn't even ask for them?

If the Jedi got together and at some point accepted, on a balance of evidence (whatever that may be) that Sifo-Dyas DID request the army, and then agreed by a majority that he was wise to do so. Then it might have been a teensy bit more credible. But then again, in light of Dooku's confirmed aggression, and the link from the clones to him and the droid army, in spite of Windu laughing off the idea that Dooku could be capable of any violence against the Republic, it seems unlikely that such a uncritical conclusion would be drawn about any erstwhile Jedi ever again after that.

The Jedi and the Republic have no idea what they have. They only have the Kaminoans being under the false impression that army was requested by and for the Republic. That is not enough to blithely continue with the production and deployment of those clones without any further due diligence.

 

They don't have any other options though. That's the entire point.
The story is such that they can't wait and investigate any further by the end of the film.

 

Not enough time to provide their own clone sample as a precaution?

 

Yes. You have to take into account that the Jedi are already backed into a corner at the end of AOTC, both by their attachment to serving the Republic and wanting to protect it--and their power base--from attack by the Sith and by the fact that they don't have any sort of numbers to match the growing Separatist threat. Taking the clones is their only option. It may seem silly to us as the audience, but at the end of the day we need to remember as we watch that the Jedi don't have any other option. That's the whole point.

 

The only reason Jango is being used as the sample for cloning is because he's been paid to keep his mouth shut about it. There's no reason whatsoever to continue with a sample that is tainted by their alliance with the enemies of the Republic.

 

Bounty hunters don't have any allegiance to any government.

 

You seem to not understand that the entire point is that they are out of time and options.
If they dont take the army, the separatists win right then and there with their massive droid army.

 

Quite.

The use of the army is not the Jedi's choice. That is the Senate's. The Jedi have no real say and that is their weakness. They can be suspicious all they want and they are. It doesn't matter.

In movies terms the "rules" that someone figures this all out before the end credits and things are all revealed to the heroes doesn't happen. Like so many things in the prequels things don't happen the right movie way. Of course things also don't happen quite the right movie way in TESB or ROTJ. ANH is the only one where things happen "properly".

 

The battle of Geonosis was won by the expedient use of the clones. The separatist threat was only discovered in enough time to deploy the clones because an enemy of the Republic, Padme's would be assassin, was traced to Geonosis and the people behind the attacks on Padme who were also building an army. Presumably no more droids were made there following Republic victory. I heard no mention of other droid army factories.

In spite of the bizarre circumstances, they continuedin the following years to keep making clones using the same tainted sample used to make the existing clones that they know were requested under false pretences and which neither the Jedi nor the Republic asked for, and without inspecting them or ensuring that they are fit for purpose and not set up to fail.

 

The trail went cold though. Jango is dead, Sidious definitely didn't leave a money trail or else he wouldnt have put his plan in motion, etc.

And by RotS we clearly see that 3 years of fighting has made the jedi comfortable around the clones.

 

They followed the trail to the preparations by Dooku and the Separatists to wage offensive war on the Republic. The guy who tried to kill the opposition to any possible formation of an Republic army is the sample for a secretly and falsely requisitioned clone army and the bodyguard for the Leader of the separatists.

The trail does not have to lead to the puppet master before suspicion should be cast on the long term viability of the clone army.

 

Suspicion, sure. And they do. Not that it helps. Events play out how they do no matter how suspicious they are.

Not sure what you're even arguing anymore. I got the answers that satitisfied me earlier and I don't see a plot issue anymore.

 

They are suspicious. They just don't go around saying, "This is suspicious." They're bothered by the fact that not only did this happen, but that they couldn't have foreseen it. Something that both Mace and Yoda discuss.

They're not going to delay stopping the Separatist invasion, in order to conduct an investigation. Their plan was to stop the planned invasion and then look into it. And eventually they did investigate.

And as long as they provide a large sum of money. No questions asked. That's why Kamino was chosen. It was out of the Republic and they kept to themselves.

They don't know if the Republic has a military or not. Or if they just voted to install a new one.

That's not even a connection given the kind of work Jango does, which makes him a mercenary. You really need to read up on mercenaries.

So, what you're saying is that it isn't possible for Sifo-Dyas to act on his own accord, without permission from the Council? What about when Qui-gon and Obi-wan both declared that they would train Anakin, without permission from the Council? You act as if no other Jedi could possibly do something like that.

What tangible link? Jango worked for Sifo-Dyas and a man named Tyranus and then takes a job working for Nute Gunray and Count Dooku. What's the connection?

So, again, you don't believe that for one minute a Jedi could do this, but you believe Obi-wan and Qui-gon that they would defy orders and train a potentially dangerous Jedi?

The Kaminoans aren't loyal to the Republic. They're loyal to the almighty dollar. Obi-wan senses no malice. No evil intent. Hell, Order 66 was created under the false pretense of the Jedi being the traitors and thus was to take them out. Which is why it was used, because the Jedi did betray the Republic.

The Jedi Council did conclude that he had to have done it, since no other explanation makes sense. Then they find out the Sith were involved, but only after the war is well under way and it is too late to stop it.

That's why it is up to the Chancellor who has the authority now to use the Clonetroopers at his discretion, and not the Senate or the Jedi Order.

It takes five years to create and grow a clone to maturity. Besides, said clone would be tampered with as well. The Kaminoans were told that Order 66, among the other orders, was vital to the safety and security of the Republic.

There are more factories than just on Geonosis. It was just one of the major facilities. The Techno Union, the Trade Federation, the Commerce Guild and the Intergalactic Banking Clan all have facilities, other than on Geonosis. These organizations didn't start working together until now. But they all share one thing in common and that is they all had different Droid Armies protecting their interests.

They were fit for purpose and didn't fail. They did their job well. They killed hundreds of Jedi and destroyed millions of Battle Droids. Mission accomplished.

 

There is a connection. Jango's mercenary status is irrelevant. The clones are tainted by their connection with the enemies via Jango

Yes the Jedi should declare that they are suspicious and not leave the audience to speculate that they are. There is no such indication in this film or the next one that they are suspicious .

A Jedi lying to the Kaminoans and requesting a clone army for the Republic IS suspicious. They acknowledge the idea to be unthinkable and they never try to resolve those suspicions. They are never mentioned again even to explain the rationale for blithely ignoring them. Any orders these clones are programmed with, supposedly to be loyal, and supposedly by a renegade Jedi, are immediately suspect.

The Kaminoans claim the clones will be totally loyal to the Republic. If they were fooled by the person who requested them about their propriety then they can be fooled and as easily mistaken about the loyalty that's being programmed into them. Or they are simply unscrupulous arms dealers with little concern for such ethics.

Checking they are fit for purpose would mean full disclosure of the nature of the programming and specifications that was provided by the illegitimate requisitioner of this army. There should have been a conserted effort to ensure that there were no further surprises in store regarding the clone mystery.

 

The trail had gone cold. When they get a new lead, they follow up on it.
Again, not sure what you're still trying to do.

 

I'm positive the new Forces of Destiny cartoon series will answer this question once and for all.

 

When did the Jedi declare that the trail had gone cold? Or that they were even bothering to follow any trail once they took command of the clones?

 

The trail had obviously gone cold. The movies don't need to spell everything out for us like we're simpletons. The originals didn't do that and neither do the prequels.

 

Seeming lack of care and diligence that goes against the supposed wisdom of the characters does need to be convincingly depicted. Not spelled out. And not simply assumed to be credible following the outcome.

Particularly if we're supposed to be impressed with the wisdom of these characters above all else.

 

I think we were supposed to be impressed with their use of the force in combat, but understand they were flawed when it comes to government related matters.

If we make this solely about the movies, then they made it clear they are closer to a police/detective force than a military force. Their mistake from the beginning was accepting the change in that role.

They probably should have first refused to become generals to the clone army. Their role should have simply been closer to ambassadors. Contacting systems that were showing signs of leaving. As well as continuing to look for trails to the Sith Master. This would not have left them spread so thin. It also would have meant infinitely less death of Jedi leading up to Order 66. It also would not have put them in such a precarious position of instant victim to the clone troopers. And of course, the role of finding out more about the true origins and purpose of the clone troopers.

The minute they accepted the role of Jedi Generals, all of their *real* duties became a lower priority with minimal resources.

 

Their troubles dealing with governmental matters would have been compelling if they'd been depicted gradually, credibly. But , I feel, there's little evidence of what kept them in their exalted position in the Republic, guarding justice for over a thousand generations.

They are employed as ambassadors too, which is a bit more sophisticated than a policeman. But you are right that they physically seem to embody the role as, well, muscle for the Republic. They are trusted with using their powers ethically and responsibly in that role. And at a time when nobody is supposed to (by agreement, or enforcement?) have a standing army or any considerable militia, except for strictly local matters.

Yes!!! .

Yep. They condescended to the role of warriors rather quickly. Out of loyalty to the Republic, of course. But the transformation of the Republic, and of themselves, as a result is recognized way too late, if at all, by most Jedi. And being detectives, you might have expected them to be a bit more savvy.

 

Savvy of what though?
They would have had to string together multiple very unlikely options mixed with conjecture.
Notjing concrete enough to change their course of action.

So again, savvy of what, exactly? What should they be savvy of that would make them go so far as to not fight for the republic?

 

But you can't have drama (or a space opera) without mistakes. Take away the mistakes and you take away the point of a movie / story.

EDIT: They could have been more savvy. Trying to make excuses for the Jedi, IMO, misses the point Lucas was trying to make.

Or to sum it all up.
Wars not make one great.

Yoda at least identified the problem. His solution was a bit sketchy still.