PT AotC explanation??

At least they would have been seen to try. And given the extremely suspicious circumstances of the clone army's appearance, nobody would have had too much problem with them addressing the question, instead of them pretending there is no question because the answer or how to get there may have appeared to be as obscure and bizzarre as the whole mystery had been up till then.

 

I don't think anyone is "taking out the mistakes" of the movies as the statement claimed. There is just a disagreement on "what" constitutes as a mistake.

 

Can somebody tell me why the Jedi were generals? They made it clear they don't fight wars. Just recruit (like they did in the Empire) the strategists. I'm sure clan Ackbar and the like would have been up to the task. Probably better at it.

Do we immediately give up our local police force and turn them all into military generals? Do ambassadors suddenly become generals?

Of course it was a mistake. But like most wars in real history, there were a few pivotal moments where the wrong decisions were made that opened the flood doors to a larger escalation. After the war is over, there is talk about these mistakes and the inevitable "how could we not have seen this?" Because war makes people immediately think it is priority #1. If we don't handle THIS now, there will be no nation to govern. No business to run. Etc, etc. So people make decisions often knowing it is not a great one, but can't imagine there's a choice.

And it will happen again. Because there have been times where appeasement has also seemed like the wrong choice in hindsight. So it isn't just as easy to say there is a solvable patch that fits every future conflict and therefore no reason for future conflict.

The Jedi made a mistake. An understandable one. One that lines up with real history.

 

But t

But they don't pretend there's no question. When they get a lead on Syfo-Dyas they follow it up.

 

Yes, I think the Jedi made a mistake in agreeing to become generals in a morally hazy civil war and take control of a clone army whose provenance is suspect. The movies go to great lengths to make it clear that that was a mistake and a betrayal of what the Jedi are supposed to stand for.

What I take issue with is the notion that the Jedi's haste in taking control of the clone army is somehow indicative of terminal stupidity rather than being a narratively plausible misstep arising out of an all-too-human overzealousness.

 

....to Dooku.

 

The real issue in having here is not acknowledging that Palpitine is the MSTRMND behind the works, putting the Jedi into a corner. Basically giving them no options but for war.

 

Yes, a

Yes, and they still have no choice but to play the game.

 

Based on what "evidence"? You seem to ask for "evidence" when it suits then dismiss when it doesn't. How exactly the clones are "tainted" I don't know. There really is no taint at all in that they quite rightly ultimately answer to the elected Supreme Chancellor of the Republic. That he is the Dark Lord of the Sith is a whole other matter and by the way it's not illegal to be a Sith. Having a precaution that control of the clones can be taken away from the Jedi if they decide to turn on the Republic makes complete sense as a contingency.

Now of course as movie viewers we know whose who and what's what and that Palpatine in the evil and will use this to destroy the Jedi. Fine but that is not applicable. No one in the universe is watching the movies.

They are suspicious though. I don't know exactly what you want. Do we need it to be that ultra overt like they are talking to us about the plot point by point or something?

Yes they do. Then Jango escapes and thinkgs unfold quickly from there.

The next movie is set 3 years later so as always things went on in-between movies.

They spend all that time being loyal to the Republic.

Which is totally true.

This was covered in TCW later to show that things did happen between movies. None of this alters that there was a war going on and they needed the clones.

I really don't see what the actual argument is here.

The clones were going to fight for the Republic in the war with or without the Jedi. The only choice they had was to lead the clones or walk away and betray their oath to protect the Republic and therefore become enemies and then get hunted by the clones. If that is what they chose then Palpatine would have been happy to have them cut down all the quicker.

 

Oath to protect the Republic.

Remember when all the Jedi swept into Naboo and destroyed the Trade Federation in mere seconds. Neither do I. That wasn't their role. It practically beat us over the head with that. They were not kicked out of the Republic for refusing to "fight a war for" Padme.

So it seems a massive stretch to say simply refusing to be warriors over ambassadors in The Clone Wars would have forced them to leave the Republic (and get hunted down by the clones. The same clones probably too busy with the Separatists to hunt down Jedi).

They made a bad decision. That's it. They were boxed in, but not without choices other than stay and fight (and be wiped out) or leave (and be wiped out). It was simply a decision made in haste.

 

Why would they? That is a matter within the Republic itself in a time of peace.

Fast forward ten years later with thousand of systems leaving the Republic and the Separatists having an army threatening the Republic.

A dispute on one planet that was going to be settled one way or another be it over years of time or as it was quite quickly due to Padme's actions.

 

I wouldn't call it solved quickly due to Padme's actions. Padme is ground zero for the birth of the Empire.

Also, the latter was a Civil War, not an outside force.

Is there a real life nation that ever immediately turned their ambassadors into the generals? Not one volunteering, but just instantly being told "you are now the general or you will be charged with treason and executed." I could limit it to a democracy/republic, but what about ANY nation?

EDIT:
Ladies and gentlemen. The generals of the next big war

 

How are they tainted? The mercenary status is relevant because he can work for whoever pays him and that he agrees to work for. Boba worked for Vader, who was part of the legal government of that is the Empire and he worked for the crime lord, Jabba the Hutt, the antithesis of law and order. Jango offered up his DNA for the Republic and offered his services for hire for Nute Gunray.

In other words, they need to be like this guy.

Uh, where was it proven that Sifo-Dyas lied? The Clone Army was created for the Republic, was it not? Yes, it was. Who gives the order to terminate the Jedi? The Supreme Chancellor. He was a leading member of the Jedi Council at one point? Yes, he was. Do Jedi not have visions of the future? Well, we've seen two Skywalker men who have them. And we know that Rey has seen the past and the future. We also know other Jedi have had them like Ahsoka Tano and Yoda. Hell, the prophecy of the Chosen One is based on a vision of the future. So, is it not possible for Sifo-Dyas to decide that if he could not convince the Republic and the Council to do something about the dark times, wouldn't it make sense for him to take matters into his own hands?

Order 66 is to protect the Republic from the Jedi, in case of an uprising against the Republic. Which is what Mace Windu was attempting to do. And didn't the Sith come from the Jedi, in the first place?

They were loyal to the Republic. That's why they didn't question about Order 66 being given. They were designed to be less independent from Jango and obey orders without question. Wasn't that what Lama Su told Obi-wan? The Kaminoans aren't unscrupulous arms dealers, but they don't see the clones as individuals, but as product.

NELA SE: "I am in charge of this examination, and I will decide what is best for my patient."

SHAAK TI: "Actually, since the Republic and the Jedi commissioned the clones, it is our responsibility to oversee their care."

NELA SE: "Every clone and their genetic makeup is property of the Kaminoan government. Now, as a client of ours, I will respect your wishes, but as to the fate of this clone, I will speak to our Prime Minister, Lama Su."

SHAAK TI: "And I will advise the Jedi Council on the atomic brain scan and see how they would like to proceed."

NELA SE: "Very well. "



NELA SE: "It appears there has been a preemptive execution of clone Protocol 66."

LAMA SU: "How did this happen?"

NELA SU: "I do not know as of yet. However, I recommend we terminate the clone and do a full autopsy to discover how the inhibitor chip was activated."

LAMA SU: "And what of the Jedi?"

NELA SE: "The Jedi Shaak Ti is proposing an atomic-level brain scan. She has gone to the Jedi Council to seek their approval before proceeding."

LAMA SU: "We must contact Lord Tyranus."

TYRANUS: "I've been expecting your transmission. I have heard of the malfunctioning clone. How widespread is the problem?"

LAMA SU: "It seems to be an isolated incident. However, this is a delicate situation. We need to terminate the clone as soon as possible in order to extract and analyze the inhibitor chip that you provided to us."

TYRANUS: "Very good. Terminate the clone immediately. However, send the chip to me for analysis."

LAMA SU: "And what if the Jedi ask for the chip and the results of the autopsy?"

TYRANUS: "You must remember the chip is a safeguard against betrayal from rogue Jedi. Master Syfo-Dias was the only Jedi who knew of this. But with his passing, we alone know of this secret, and you must keep it that way."

LAMA SU: "Yes, Lord Tyranus."

The Kaminoans aren't going to tell the Jedi that there is a directive in place, should they ever get a wild hair up their ass about taking over the Republic. That kinda defeats the purpose of something like Order 66, which is to safeguard against such a betrayal.

They're generals the same reason that Luke, Han and Lando are suddenly given ranks, without being in the military. The Jedi were given military rankings because they're combatants. While they weren't soldiers, they've been leaders in combat situations. Due to their experience they were given military rankings of general and commander. Just like out of the blue Lando is General Calrissian. What made him fit to be a general? Nothing except fighting at the Battle of Taanab, a battle that predated the war. And the Republic did have military leaders like Tarkin, Needa, Yularen and Thrawn serving during the war.

And how does that prove that he had any involvement in anything to do with the Clone Army? It doesn't. Where in AOTC did Dooku say, "I'm the one who created the Clone Army, you now have?" Where did he admit to be the man called Tyranus. He doesn't. Not until two years later, when Minister Lom of the Pykes called him Tyranus in front of Obi-wan and Anakin. Even afterwards, they still trusted the clones.

YODA: "Valiant men the clones have proven to be. Saved my life and yours they have many times. Believe in them we must. Win the war swiftly we must, before our enemy's designs reach completion, whatever they may be."

MACE: "Are you sure we are taking the right path?"

YODA: "Hmm, the right path, no. The only path, yes. Designed by the Dark Lord of the Sith, this web is. For now, play his game we must."

The Jedi were not authorized to go to Naboo and fight against the Federation. The Senate was in upheaval due to the vote of No Confidence in Chancellor Valorum. A new Chancellor would be elected and then that person would either choose to defer to a committee to investigate the claims of the Queen, or take decisive action. The Jedi cannot go around doing as they please, even if it was the morally correct thing to do.

No, Palpatine is. Whether she called for the vote or not, Palpatine was going to become Chancellor. The invasion of Naboo was ground zero. Not the Queen. If she had stayed and signed the treaty, Palpatine would have the means to become Chancellor.

 

So who paid for the clones?

 

Dooku. He's a Count, after all. He has a fortune. None of the Jedi would bother to think that he had paid for it, after Geonosis. Once they learned that he is Tyranus, then they conclude that he paid for it.

 

So a pre-paid clone army by .... somebody they don't know. Suspicious?

 

Never ceased to be.

 

So it was forced upon Lando. Had he said no, the rebel alliance would have executed him. This deals getting worse all the time. Remind me to never let Lando (or the Jedi) negotiate ANYTHING for me.

Exactly. People more qualified for that position than the Jedi. This is about opportunity costs. Force the Jedi into being generals at the expense of your police force / ambassadors.

It's almost as if the Jedi weren't generals planning a strategy to win the war, they might have more resources to "solve the mystery of the Sith."

What exactly were the terms of this treaty? What were the demands?

One thing that is kind of gnawing at me:
Valorum: Sent the Jedi to Naboo to break the blockade
Palpatine: Gonna have to accept Federation control for the time being

How exactly is the latter the "strong chancellor" and the other weak? Did the Valorum replacement candidates not have to at least present their solutions to the Naboo invasion? Why wasn't Palpatine voted out the minute he became chancellor only to offer an even weaker solution to the problem?

 

Two different situations.
The negotiations Valorum hoped for, which he set in motion without senate approval, never took place - and in their failure came the military occupation of Naboo of which the Republic had no army to fight against. There was no immediate berueacratic solution to the TF control, but with Palpatine's close affiliation with Naboo (I would imagine) came at least the hope that he would relentlessly pursue a solution. Neither Valorum nor Palpatine were necessarily weak or strong, but the machinations of the latter made the former appear weak.
It was the corruption in the system that made it weak, which Palpatine used to his advantage.

(besides he may have only suggested acceptance of TF control to Amidala to keep her from returning to Naboo).

 

So Dooku had the finance to request a clone army by himself and use it to deliver an ultimatum to the senate and force whatever reforms reforms he thought were necessary, or just to work his evil Sith will. Thus making the whole charade in the film as pointless as it is convoluted and contrived.

In other words, the Battle of Coruscant could have occurred three years earlier and with only one possible winner.

 

But then the citizenry of the republic would resent the invading force, and the Jedi would still be at large. By convincing the galaxy that the clones are saviours the empire can be welcomed with open arms, and the Jedi taken care of at the same time.

 

The Jedi maintain they are not an army, nor can they fight wars. They would not be able to take on the clones by themselves.

 

No, but they couldn't be caught unawares, eliminated in one swift blow. They would be able to go into hiding with much greater numbered.

 

The surviving Jedi only went into hiding BECAUSE they were hunted down. They would not necessarily go into hiding because the senate settled with Dooku. Yes they could. If the senate acquiesced to Dooku's demands, and the clones were made legitimate, they could still have been in a position to liquidate the Jedi.

 

and where's Palpatine in this scenario of yours ? does he just step aside for Dooku ?
And the general public ( the vast billions ) - do they just agree to let the clones and Dooku take charge ?

I'm just interested to know what you think would happen next .