AOTC - From a Writer's POV

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by DarthLascivious, May 23, 2002.

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  1. Vertical Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 1999
    star 6

    There's something I'm trying to hit on here, and I feel like I'm missing it. Maybe someone else can comment on this?
    I see what you're trying to get at. Obi-Wan never really expresses any sort of personal anxiety or reluctant realization or moment of self-doubt... which, in retrospect, could have been well-placed at the end of the film. Throughout the film we see their struggle, but never see the toll it takes on Obi-Wan, as if none of it phased him... With a line like "You'll be expelled from the Jedi order!!", one would expect Obi-Wan to start having serious concerns, yet we never get to see any of that. We can't identify with him because we aren't shown that angle. I think perhaps that may be what you're getting at, and you'd be right... but, I could be misinterpreting what you mean.

    Regarding the love story, once again: I think the fact that it has sparked so much discussion is testament to the fact that Lucas left it open-ended. She falls for him in that scene, I feel, but it leaves us wanting more from them. Perhaps he could have put more in this film, but perhaps, plot-wise, further exposition and development would be best in Episode III?

    Vertical
  2. bcollins Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    Vertical,

    I know that Padme and Anakin might not be torn apart. That's why I said, "I don't know what GL is planning to do in Episode III," but you didn't copy that part of the quote. Please read my posts a little more carefully, because I'm tired of explaining what I wrote.

    A lie between them would be a good way of tearing them apart, but that's the least important part of my argument. The important part is that by showing Anakin murder the Tuskens, and then having him lie about it to Padme would make their love story more believable and demonstrate Anakin's willingness to move toward the dark-side.
  3. Vertical Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 1999
    star 6
    Take it easy, bcollins, I understand exactly what you're saying, I just disagree. I respect your opinion, and understand how it could work on several levels, I just happen to disagree that a lie would be more effective than the truth. I know what you're getting at, I just disagree. We'll have to agree to disagree, respectfully. No worries.

    Vertical
  4. augusto Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    Nah, the "confession" scene is much better the way it is. It shows Anakins horrible potential for the darkside, but doesn't show him necessarely as "evil". He does show some remorse and confusion in that scene, and Padme is there to comfort him.

    It's great the way it is. Having him lie about it, just makes him more eviiiiil, when he's not supposed to. At least not at this point.
  5. BoboliFett Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 3
    I think the biggest mistake that people make when they watch the PT, is they FORGET that THEY know the rest of the story.

    WE are cursed, where the youngsters of today that havnt seen the OT are not.

    Plus, most of us have read the script online and knew every deatil of THIS film!


    This totally skews peoples interpretation.


    "Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is."
  6. Vertical Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 1999
    star 6
    My feelings exactly, augusto.

    Vertical
  7. Roger Goldleader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2000
    star 3
    Great thread -

    The point about the forced romantic dialog is well made.

    I think it would have been better if Anakin's attempts to profess his love were clumsy and tongue-tied. After all, this is the first time in his life he's been around the girl he loves, and is old enough to do something about it. He could have come across as shy, yet still very intense - then Padme would have thought his awkward professions of love were appealling. Instead, the script has him spouting off tortured lines. On first hearing, I thought they were tolerable, but the people behind us (who had seen the movie) were laughing the whole time -
  8. Vertical Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 1999
    star 6
    Agreed, Roger Goldleader. I had similar experiences.

    Vertical
  9. Gen. Madine's Hairpiece Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2000
    star 4
    I think if they had kept the scenes with Padme's family, we would see her maternal insticts start to kick in, and when Anankin's mom dies, she sorta takes on a motherly instinct that she may mistake for love. Thus her overlooking Annie's shortcomings in the name of soothing him and comforting him.
  10. bcollins Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    "Why do we need to see Obi-Wan change in *this* movie ?"

    It would make the movie more interesting, because when we see the characters change we go through the experience with them, which gets us more involved in the characters. It's always better to see a character grow and change than just watch them go through some special effect laden obstacles. At least Lucas could show some type of character arc through the obstacles he has to face, but he does not.

    Instead Lucas uses stupid ways of creating character by giving Obi-Wan a fear of flying. Where did that come from? The first trilogy had great characters and character development. That is why the OT is so great.
  11. Vertical Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 1999
    star 6
    Another good point, Hairpiece. I had forgotten about that cut scene.

    Vertical
  12. DarthLascivious Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    to a.block: Couldn't agree more. I also wondered why they allowed Anakin to go alone with Padme. And again, why to Naboo, her home planet? There were any number of ways to get them off planet together - good idea.

    more about padme and anakin: bcollins, I think I know what you mean, as well. It's another way of writing the Anakin character, planting a few more seeds of the villainy, and watching how subtly it can start. But I see Vertical's point (and tell me if I'm getting this wrong) that we need to feel that there is some true emotion shared between them, that their story starts in a pure place and then goes downhill. However, I'm still not convinced I wouldnt have liked to see him lie about the Raider thing...or perhaps lie to Kenobi, and have Padme share his secret. In some ways he looks to her as a mentor (mother figure) as well, no?

    COUNT DOOKU

    Telemachos, you echo my feelings exactly with the Dooku/bad guy thing. In the original trilogy, we see them in action. As an audience, we're allowed to know more than the characters do - which makes us root for them even more. Otherwise, we're just as surprised as them. Two different styles. I prefer the one you reminisce for as well. Doesn't evenhave to be Dooku and Obi-Wan. Dooku and Sidious. Dooku and other separatists. Dooku and his mom. Anything.

  13. Telemachos Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 2
    Yes, that family scene would have been great (at least, it sounds good :)). IMHO, the best moments between Anakin and Amidala were the prickly ones... when she accidentally disses him, "Oh Ani, you'll always be that little boy on Tatooine" and then later when they get back to Naboo, when she blithely informs her courtiers that he's still "only" a Padawan.

    Anakin seems like a very head-strong, self-centered person. Big ego. Why on earth does he not try to impress her? Show off his powers? I heard there was a scene of this, right? And it got cut?

    For all his sincerity, it just feels flat to have him (of ALL people) spouting this heartfelt, no-subtext, pseudo-Shakespearean dialogue when his ACTIONS should speak as to his feelings -- both in terms of trying to win her love and later when they are actually in love.
  14. bcollins Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    I'm sorry but mass-murder is not a shortcoming! You could have shown Anakin's remorse by having him break down, but telling Padme was just unbelievable. Padme is very idealistic, and believes in doing good, which is demonstrated by her strong beliefs in democracy and wanting to do everything she can for her people like in TPM. A person as good as this would not marry a mass-murderer. I know we all love Star Wars and GL, but come on!
  15. Vertical Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 1999
    star 6
    Yes, you have my opinion correct... I think their relationship needs to start from something pure, and honest, even if it is a strange situation to feel sympathetic for someone.

    And I don't think continuity-wise Anakin could believably deceive Obi-Wan... I mean, he knows when Anakin is tense about seeing Padme, I think he'd be able to pick up on a blatant lie.

    Vertical
  16. BoboliFett Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 3
    Kenobi is not affraid of flying, he even says so, hes affraid of Anakin's reckless behavior, as the rest of the Galaxy should be. The second time Kenobi makes a comment about flying is a joke.


    BTW, what was Yodas ARC in the OT?
  17. augusto Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    > I know we all love Star Wars and GL, but come on!

    What does this have to do with me liking the scene as it is or not ? Let's respect our personal tastes as we do yours, please.

    I think the character might not see as plain "mass murder" as I don't think she knows what a Tusken is, aside from the fact that she (and we the audience) are told they are vicious animals (somebody gave the quote earlier).

    What does it mean for a Naboo aristocrat that this Jedi killed these people in revenge of their brutally torturing his mother ? I have no problem with the scene. And I felt symphaty for the character, as well as comptemt for what he did. Exactly what the writer would want us to feel at that point.
  18. Vertical Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 1999
    star 6

    I'm sorry but mass-murder is not a shortcoming! You could have shown Anakin's remorse by having him break down, but telling Padme was just unbelievable. Padme is very idealistic, and believes in doing good, which is demonstrated by her strong beliefs in democracy and wanting to do everything she can for her people like in TPM.
    As I pointed out previously, I don't think the Tusken slaughter is equivalent to mass-murder. The Tuskens are explained as animals, and described as non-humans. If Anakin had killed a herd of sheep, it wouldn't be mass murder...

    Also consider that Padme has absolutely no experience with Tuskens. She's never seen one, never met one... her only experience is Cliegg's description, that of non-human savages. I don't think it's a stretch that she's not horrified by Anakin's for killing them after they tortured her mother. Her sympathy for him surpasses and eclipses her shock at his behavior. I think that's the point of the scene. That's what drives the point home that she truly cares about him.

    Vertical
  19. Tar-Jinn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 1
    Hello.
    Great post.
    I am not a writer, so well... just some comments.

    On exposition and foreshadowing.
    I think that if we knew that the Separatists were such a threat from the beginning of the film, it would have changed AOTC a bit. I mean, the way it is now, they are NOT a threat at the beginning. They simply decided to get out of the Republic. Similar to any EU country getting out of the EU.
    It is more that the Republic is the aggressive side here. For some "really weird reason" they want to build up an army, assuming that the Separatists will attack them.
    This gives Padme's motivation: Padme does not want a war, opposes the MCA.
    And, in my opinion, given what she knows, she is right.

    And why should I know that there is something bad awaiting Obi-Wan on Geonosis? I mean, I'd much more like to be curious as to what awaits him on Geonosis that a bounty hunter who is a clone donor goes there. (I kind of never root for anyone in movies, anyway; in the scene you mentioned in ESB I was rather like: OK, so here's this bounty hunter. This means something's bad gonna happen. This kind of killed the surprise. I preferred the Emperor's "The Death Star is fully armed and operational." Never saw that coming the first time.)


    And several more things:
    One, we do have Padme saying that she thinks Dooku ordered the assassinations.
    Two, "Count Dooku was once a Jedi".
    Three, "Only a Jedi could erase the data from the archives."
    Four, Dooku's bust in the Jedi Archives. Actually part of a cut scene which would probably satisfy part of your needs.
    Five, Trade Federation March playing in the clone hatcheries, somewhere around Sio's "After four years, Nute Gunray is still Viceroy of Trade Federation."
    Six, the Feds in TPM were allied to the Sith.

    So, by the chat with Yoda we know that the Separatist leader was once a Jedi, probably erased the data from the archives (we don't know that, actually, but it kind of is obvious), and Padme doesn't like him.
    Before the fight with Jango we know that the Trade Feds are somehow connected to the clones and that they have never been convicted for TPM.
    Enough?


    On love.
    Well. I kind of am against having Anakin and Padme's romance while escaping from bounty hunters. If for no other reason than that I would like Padme to actually have some fun anywhere in the whole movies.
    I mean, here's Padme. She has always been a Senator. She will soon have to take part in a war. And then, it will be even worse. Vader will at least get to kill some Jedi. So why not give her a bit fun time? Doing nothing after all these years and before all this years?


    Now, you wrote that Anakin should decide to change the course from Naboo to Tatooine. Well, ex-queeze me! Going to Naboo is Padme's choice, because "It's my home, I know it well; there are many isolated places out there"... it was visible even in TPM, that planet is almost uninhabited! Any person from the outside would be clearly visible, unlike Padme, who is one of the local society. While Tatooine... it's Tatooine. Controlled by the Hutts, for instance.

    And perhaps this would give something to Anakin, but take a lot from Padme. Not only is she ordered around by Palpatine and the Jedi on Coruscant, but then that arrogant punk changes the course as he sees fit, putting HER in danger because HE wants to do one thing while he should be doing another! As in "I'm in charge of security here, M'Lady." ("And this is my home, Padawan Learner! Know your place while talking to a Senator!")

    And about my take on Padme (as in: one fangirl's speculation as to what Lucas intended), see this thread:
    Padme Amidala and the Naboo

    Most of what I write there is, of course, baseless speculation, but I think that this could give you at least a direction to think at. So please, do read this first, then scold me.
  20. BoboliFett Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 3
    Contrary to popular belief...Anakin is not a mass murderer, yet!

    Uncle Owen even says in Ep.II, that sandpeople are beasts that walk as men, they are not men!

    Anakin was telling the truth when he said "they're animals" I slaughtered them like animals"

    The problem isnt so much that he killed them, the problem is that he killed them consumed with HATE and ANGER. That is why he failed, I would feel bad about myself if I killed a bunch of wolves out of anger for killing someone that I cared about, later I would realize that they were not evil, they were doing what wolves do. I would honestly feel bad about that, especially if I were a Jedi and my code said I could never act in angerv because it leads to the darkside. Killing wolves does not make me a mass murderer though!



  21. Darth Scooby Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 1999
    star 4
    ok, I'm kinda posting blind here because I haven't had time to read, digest and put together everything said in the prior 3 pages.

    I agree somewhat with the original poster, but have some problems with other things:

    In ESB, there was never a foreboding about cloud city, because you never knew Vader or Fett were there. It was a total surprise when that door opened to the dining room. That's what made that scene so great - absolutely zero foreshadowing. Sure, they spent the better part of an hour chasing the Falcon, and Fett trailed them after they eluded the fleet, but you didn't know they were there (a major plot hole in my book, but I digress). On the other hand, you knew ObiWan was gonna find some crap down on Geonosis because he followed Jango there. The fact that Dooku was there was a bonus.

    Sending Anakin off to Tatooine directly from Coruscant wouldn't be right. He is extremely proud of being given his first mission, and is buoyed by the lavish praise heaped upon him by Palpatine for earning it. He would never then immediately turn around and disobey a direct order. Bringing her to Naboo, where there could be tons of security and she'd have the advantage of knowing the lay of the land, makes total sense. Sure, some of the dialogue could have been better, but I think it would have been bad for Anakin's overall character change to go directly to Tatooine, thus openly defying the council at the get go.

    All this comparison to ESB is not really fair, especially using Han and Leia as benchmarks for Anakin and Padme. For one thing, the former are much more mature and worldy, thus they have learned the ability to hide their thoughts and feelings in a variety of ways, to protect themselves. Anakin, and to a lesser extent Padme, have not learned such things yet. He is a 19 year old boy, thrust into a situation where he is alone with the only woman he's ever thought of in a romantic way. He has no knowledge or training of how to deal with these emotions, so they all come flowing from him. She, on the other hand, as a diplomat, has some skills to mask here true feelings. However, she cannot resist totally (neither did Leia, if you recall). Only when she feels all is lost does she let go. I found the confessional scene to be moving and beautifully written, as good as any in the OT.

    In the workshop, after Anakin's confession, he does break down. You see Padme's look change from fear and horror to one of sympathy and compassion. She sees his struggle and decides she must be there to comfort him, keeping him on the side of the sane. This is also after he has promised to basically abolish death (foreshadowing of the future jedi disappearances after dying perhaps? - that's another thread as AB would say).

    Most of the film worked for me. Some dialogue was a bit off, some of the film was a bit too busy. But still, it was very well done and worked well. I think we are still suffering from some of the same problems TPM had, mainly the fact that many people want Han, Luke and Leia, and they are not there. This is what videotape (and eventually dvd's) are for.

    good discussion. Hope it doesn't devolve anytime soon. It's threads like this that may make me permanently come back after getting burnt out last year.
  22. bcollins Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    "And I don't think continuity-wise Anakin could believably deceive Obi-Wan... I mean, he knows when Anakin is tense about seeing Padme, I think he'd be able to pick up on a blatant lie. "

    Oh, you don't think so do you? I think you forget what Yoda says, "The dark-side clouds everything." Seems like this would be part of Anakin's dark-side.

    I hear your comments about the Tuskens. They are described as savages, but most decent people would think that slaughtering women and children is a bad thing. Okay, maybe not on these boards. Still, what about how creepy Anakin acts around Padme? Do you all not think he acts creepy?
  23. MINI_YODA Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2002
    star 2
    Some interesting stuff here. Too long for me to comment too much on.

    The one observation I seem to see here is that many of you wanted this movie to be longer. And maybe with a longer movie some of your concerns will be answered. Remember GL did sort of mention that he had 4 hours of filmed footage or something.

    Sort of reminds me of the ABYSS actually. When the film originally hit the theater many didn't like it. But when James Cameron added back alot of the original arcs it became a whole new film.


    While I personally loved AOTC, it's intriguing to think that the film could be made even better with more footage.
  24. Vertical Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 1999
    star 6

    In ESB, there was never a foreboding about cloud city, because you never knew Vader or Fett were there. It was a total surprise when that door opened to the dining room.
    Not quite so... 3-PO gets shot... you know something's wrong, you just don't know what...

    BTW, good to see you over here, Scooby!

    Vertical
  25. DarthLascivious Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    Re: Yoda's character arc in OT-

    Yoda goes from drunken party animal and thief to responsible ghost.

    No, seriously, I think I get the point. Some characters don't really have an arc, and they don't need to. In fact, they usually exist for other characters to revolve around. A mentor is a great example. You could also argue that this Obi-Wan's role in the prequels, to some degree.
    (And yes, Vertical, you accurately summed up my hopes for Obi-Wan - especially at the end of the movie.)

    Re: Padme and cut scenes. As leaden as they probably were, the family scenes would have only accentuated this point in her character. I think they could have gotten the same thing out of her in some other way.
    I think this is a very important part of her character. Good point.

    re: Tuskens as animals. A cunning point in the film, actually, because the prejudices against the Sand People (via Lars, etc.) could be used as justification for what Anakin does - plus the fact they have indeed captured and tortured hismother (for some reason - I wish there was a better reason why - someone mentioned this before). So on the one hand, Padme sympathizes with Annie because of the situation. On the other hand, shouldn't she, as a diplomat, see that there may be more than one side to the story? My god, Anakin even admits that he killed children. To me, that makes it a whole new ball game. Maybe that's all I really wanted, a little more struggle on her part.

    Lastly, I used the "nervousness of first love" while watching the film as my excuse for the bad dialogue. I like to think that's what they were going for. That's what's so frustrating about most of my points: I don't think they were far off from a truly stellar script. The things we're talking about (for the most part) would have been easy to fix (I think.) But their relative inexperience in the film makes sense and can be parlayed into any number of things, including their brash decisions and the sudden marriage.

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