AOTC - From a Writer's POV

Anakin acts very passionately, in everything he does, and that will end up being his downfall.

Is that creepy, it's intense but not creepy, I think his character is really very charming because of his idealism and passion.

 

DarthLascivious, very good ideas.

I disagree about Obi-Wan, but others have expressed my views on him better. I think Lucas opted for bridging the TPM Obi-Wan and the ANH Obi-Wan and what's in AotC is fine.

I also wanted to point out that Lucas and Hales did an outstanding job in character development for at least one character : Yoda. I could really see how the TPM Yoda and the OT Yoda come together now. That was truly great.

On the love story I share a lot of your views. Naboo was totally useless as it stands in the final cut. Initially, it had a purpose. Had it been longer and had the dialogue been more interesting it would have made an good counterpoint to the action plot going on with Obi-Wan. As written initially or as it stands in the novelization, the scene with Padmé's sister provided our only hint of what is truly going on in her head. Her sister who presumably knows her very well understood right away that she was in love. It was a revelation to the audience that Padmé has been masking her feelings since the beginning. As it is, we got only the mask and we fail to believe she truly felt in love with a whiny and unstable teenager. The exposition of the paradox of Padmé acting like a Jedi when it's not needed of her while Anakin is unable to, another thing Sola brought, had it's place.

We could also get a sense that Padmé longed for a family and a personal life but wasn't able to give in to it because she feels that visceral need to devote herself to a life of service. But the burden of that career on her shoulders was more evident that way. It was far more easier to understand why she was confused at the Lake retreat and almost gave in to Anakin's pressure for love and intimacy. I think the scene from the novel where Padmé actually enters his bedroom while he dreams and half-think that she should enter his bed would have been an interesting addition. Hard to convey without dialogue on screen, but interesting nonetheless.

Speaking of dreams, I think it's a mistake to have cut the dream scene in the freighter. We needed that to give a sense of threat in that part of the movie, a bitter aftertaste element to the goo-goo romantic scenes coming up.

Finally, I think the scenes with her young nieces added a very poignant touch considering what's in store for Padmé.

The way the movie was edited force us to rely on external knowledge of the characters and guess about Padmé's personal motivations all the way through. The Senator is easy to understand, the woman far less so.

We could guess that she is very immature emotionally while being very mature logically. Emotionally she is like a teenager, with very little experience of real life. This all make sense given her background, but we were given too little of that to believe it.

With that immaturity and her compassionate nature she is also an easy prey for someone who manipulates her emotions, who begs her to love him. After Shmi's death, you can speculate it is in her nature to be attracted by Anakin, the poor little thing with a big hole in his life : "he only has me now and here I am rejecting him for logical reasons while I could simply admit that I love him and help him out.". Had she been clearly in that state of mind for the audience (with scenes showing her distress while Anakin was away, etc.), it would be easier to understand that she completely overlooked the real implications of the Tusken slaughter. At least Lucas cut her lines at the end of that scene when she basically dismissed Anakin's thoughts that a Jedi shouldn't act like that on the fact he is "just human"... I think it gave an awful "grey area" twist to the way she reacts and I'm very happy it's gone. Also, it's much more powerful that she remains speechless and shocked and only ackwardly comforting. There is no word for what Anakin has done anyway.

But alas, we can only guess at her motivations and inner thoughts during the whole love story because there isn't sufficient development in the final movie. The Naboo plot could have been interesti

 

Tar Jinn:

I kind of have to disagree with on the whole Naboo reasoning

quote
_______

Now, you wrote that Anakin should decide to change the course from Naboo to Tatooine. Well, ex-queeze me! Going to Naboo is Padme's choice, because "It's my home, I know it well; there are many isolated places out there"... it was visible even in TPM, that planet is almost uninhabited! Any person from the outside would be clearly visible, unlike Padme, who is one of the local society. While Tatooine... it's Tatooine. Controlled by the Hutts, for instance.

And perhaps this would give something to Anakin, but take a lot from Padme. Not only is she ordered around by Palpatine and the Jedi on Coruscant, but then that arrogant punk changes the course as he sees fit, putting HER in danger because HE wants to do one thing while he should be doing another! As in "I'm in charge of security here, M'Lady." ("And this is my home, Padawan Learner! Know your place while talking to a Senator!")

For me this is a story problem on two elements.

1) you said going to Tatooine would give more to Anakin. You're exactly right. The whole point of the PT is about Anakin. Going to Tatooine would also give more time to develop the whole Schmi thing better. More of a build up than an after thought.

2) Logically going to Naboo doesn't make sense. An assasination attempt has just been made on her life, twice, and what does she decide to do? Go hide on a planet that would be an obvious place to look. Tatooine is remote outer rim planet that would be a much better place to hide. Likewise Anakin could use Padme's line about living there also. I guess to me Tatooine seems to fit the story more logically. Whereas as Naboo was used solely for its photogenic qualities.

I mentioned earlier in one of my other posts that for the love story to work they should have been in some type of danger. It seemed like as soon as they landed on Naboo, both Anakin and Padme forgot she was about a stinger away from being murdered. This is just plain bad storytelling. Aside from its logical inconsitencies it could have added even more to the film.

 

One thing I do have to add to DL. You should have been a critic for the movie or any movie for that matter.

Your insight is excellent, and while I don't agree with you 100%, I totally respect your point of view. And you don't try and move my judgement either way, you let me make my own judgement. and you know what I think I learnt something from this thread, and that's whats important.
I really wish critics were like this....

I'd almost love to here your take on other movies like Spiderman or LOTR but this is a SW site so I guess not.

 

Something we should all consider is, Lucas wrote and filmed more than what we see in the final print. It's cut down to the essentials. I'm guessing that, had GL not felt constrained by time, this could have been a three hour movie that more fully fleshed out the character's motives and relationships. The scenes w/Padme's family, the trial scene, and perhaps if there were more scenes filmed w/the Lars family - if those were included the romance might have become a real "poem" instead of a "hiaku."

Maybe we'll see more in the DVD -

 

Telemachos:
"IMHO, the best moments between Anakin and Amidala were the prickly ones... when she accidentally disses him, "Oh Ani, you'll always be that little boy on Tatooine" and then later when they get back to Naboo, when she blithely informs her courtiers that he's still "only" a Padawan..."

I could not agree more. These moments felt real unlike almost all other Anakin-Padme interaction. That includes fight scenes as well. I thought that the "only a Padawan" line was especially impressive. We know as viewers that Anakin has a huge but delicate ego, Padme is not so aware of this. Being able to understand her lack of real closeness to Anakin, at that point in the movie, is key to making their love story believable.

 

hey, that sith-order is smart

 

I'm hoping to see lots of the missing scenes in the DVD, as well. I feel they could add a lot. Excellent post, Madame_Jocasta_Nu.

Vertical

 

No, really, Sith-Order is really smart!!!

 

Madame_Jocasta_Nu, you have put my thoughts into words much better than I could have done. Excellent points.

 

Good points. Very intellegent. I agree on many of them. I think Obi-wan changed slightly, but I think the REAL character growth for him will come in EP III.

As for the love story. H/L and A/P are two VASTLY different stories.

I agree with the person that said A/P are young and niave...however though Han isn't as young as they were he (If you don't take EU into account..which I DON'T) certainly doesn't seem the type to have been in love before...and Leia most DEFINATELY has NOT "been around." (White...symbolism...)

So I think they are similar in their being new to love and such. Difference is that H/L take the slow approach while A/P are pretty quick about it.

I also agree that Padme wasn't as standoffish(not to the point of arguing or anything) as she should have been. By that I mean she should have hid her feelings more so her "I love you" could have come off more dramatic. As it is though, it was done very well.

I thought A/P had wonderful chemistry but the writing impeded them a bit.

 

Very good topic. From seeing AOTC only once I can't really analyse it that much. I was just relieved that it was so much better than TPM!

However, to start, the love story had its problems, but I don't think it is as bad as some of the critics have described.

Padme is ruled by her head. Anakin is ruled by his heart. They say opposites attract and this becomes clear when Padme volunteers to go to Tatooine with him. It was her choice. She went, not because she felt vulnerable without him by her side, but because she liked him and was concerned for him. To a degree, their roles were swapped. That's why I think it is important for them to go to Naboo before they both make the decision to go to Tatooine.

Anakin's confession to Padme was perfect. I felt a shiver go up my spine during that part of the film. (Well done, Hadyn!) Yes, Padme is horrified, but she ends up comforting Anakin instead of running away from him. Why? Because she has changed. She is not the cold fish she was before. Through the course of the film Anakin has melted her defences. People often fall for others who have a quality that they themselves lack. The fact that Anakin is so in touch with his emotions AND CARES SO MUCH is something Padme would find attractive. It is obvious that Anakin is not a thug or a psycho (yet). He's not a wife-beater or anything. He just cares SO MUCH. Remember, as well as confessing to Padme that he'd just slaughtered the Tuskens, he also declared that he wanted to prevent anyone from dying ever again. Padme would certainly go along with that and thus falls for him. (And like all young women, thinks she can iron out his faults and change him!)

I find the love story very believable.

I don't see that Obi-wan needed any character development. He is a Jedi-knight doing his duty. He has matured since TPM and I think his role in AOTC is a yard-stick for how Anakin should behave. (I did think, however, his "young Padawan" taunts were extremely patronising and he deserved to be sliced in half in ANH for that very reason.)

I do think Dooku should have been introduced earlier in AOTC simply because the Separatists were the enemy - and yet we didn't see them until way into the film. The foreshadowing would have worked nicely too.

On the whole I felt this film wasn't bad at all. It is certainly better than TPM and ROTJ. There is no reason why Ep3 can't beat ESB GL can see what works and what doesn't from 5 other films! No excuses, George!

 

Great thread, DarthLascivious. Here's how I'd make the love story less bad:

Have Obi-Wan and Anakin arrive on Coruscant with Padme. Instead of having Anakin and Padme have a 5-day relationship and then get married, make it known that the two Jedi had been stationed on Naboo for the last few years. This way Anakin and Padme can know each other.

When it's time for Padme to flee Coruscant, have Anakin take her directly to Tatooine. ("Where can we take her that no one will expect? Everyone will expect Naboo... I know! Tatooine! Most people haven't even heard of it!")

On the ship to Tatooine, cut the entire wretched conversation they have and replace it with this excerpt from the movie's Naboo meadow scene:


PADME: You really don't like politicians, don't you?

ANAKIN: I like two or three, but I'm not really sure about them. I don't think the system works.

PADME: How would you have it work?

ANAKIN: We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problems, agree what's in the best interests of all the people, and then do it.

PADME: That is exactly what we do. The trouble is that people don't always agree. In fact, they hardly ever do.

ANAKIN: Then they should be made to.

PADME: By whom? Who's going to make them?

ANAKIN: I don't know. Someone.

PADME: You?

ANAKIN: Of course not me.

PADME: But someone.

ANAKIN: Someone wise.

PADME: That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me.

ANAKIN: Well, if it works?


Then, when they arrive on Tatooine and are in the rickshaw, have that small exchange about "negotiations with a lightsabre". That's a funny exchange.

All the other dialogue from Naboo needs to be cut.

After Shmi dies, it is imperative that Anakin not tell Padme that he slaughtered the Sand People. Instead, have the exchange in the garage go like this:


PADME: I brought you something. Are you hungry?

ANAKIN: The shifter broke. Life seems so much simpler when you're fixing things. I'm good at fixing things, always was. But I couldn't... Why did she have to die...why couldn't I save her? I know I could have.

PADME: Sometimes there are things no one can fix. You're not all-powerful, Anakin.

ANAKIN: Well, I should be! Someday I will be the most powerful Jedi ever! I promise you.

Then Anakin breaks down into tears and Padme rocks him in her arms.


By not having Padme know about Anakin's mass murder, it removes a serious impediment to the believability of their marriage at the end of the movie.

But Anakin does need to tell someone. Who? Owen Lars. Have Anakin, in a stony, cold voice, tell Owen about the massacre. Have Owen look at him in disapproving shock, but say nothing. Then have Anakin walk away. This could play off of Owen's line in SW: (Beru had just said, "There's too much of his father in him.") "That's what I'm afraid of." (Which is said in a dark tone of voice.)

So when do Padme and Anakin first express their love for each other? As they are being led into the arena. It is more believable this way for three reasons:

1. She has known Anakin for a few years instead of a few days.
2. Anakin hasn't been stalking her and feeding her awful lines.
3. She doesn't know Anakin massacred women and children.

 

Some very good points raised in this thread. I'm a scriptwriter too, so I can see where a lot of people are coming from with their complaints about AOTC's screenplay.
However, I don't agree on the character arc issue. This is one of those ingredients that the experts say you should always include in a script, but I think it's more a suggestion than a requirement. I can think of plenty of successful films where the main character doesn't go through any change (Forrest Gump, anyone?) And in an episodic series like Star Wars, I think it's even less important for each main character to change and grow over just one film. How did Leia change in ANH? Or Han in ROTJ? Not every character can have a life-changing event in each film, so I don't see Obi-Wan being the same throughout AOTC as a flaw.
If you were to chart his character arc over the whole saga, I would say the three main events are:
The death of Qui-Gon (transforms him into a mature Jedi Knight willing to defy the Council)
Anakin becoming Darth Vader (leaves Obi-Wan an emotionally shattered hermit on Tatooine)
Training Luke in the ways of the force (Obi-Wan finds "a new hope" and is prepared to meet his fate at Vader's hands).
So AOTC did not have any major events that affected Obi-Wan personally, but I don't see that as a problem since his character still has further to evolve.

 

Binary_Sunset,

Excellent post. I agree with everything except the part about them knowing each other for a few years. I think them falling in love could have been shown better though. I liked that part you added about Anakin telling Lars about killing the Tusken. Lars could have been sitting somewhere and Anakin could place Shmi down in front of her and confess.

 

Great insights everyone, it is very refreshing to read such intelligent talk.

Something I'd like to discuss is Anakin's decision to go to Tatooine.

One thing I want to say is that I think Anakin's character is handled to absolute perfection. When seeing him in action I never had any doubt that he would make it out alive (even though we know he lives). Maybe it was Hayden who gave off such power, or maybe it was the whole 'chosen one' thing - but Anakin gave me this feeling that he was THAT good with his skills. The great thing about his character is he is so strong and yet so obviously weak. His weaknesses are blatant - and it is obvious to Padme. He is arrogant but he is also unsure of what he wants, of what he is really doing.

The scene before Anakin decides to go to Tatooine is the fireside scene. It is where Padme tells Anakin that it won't work. Anakin accepts this - in fact he never comes on to her again until she confesses her love. What, to me, happens is that Anakin begins the movie dreaming of his mother, a person he is attached to. He'd rather dream of Padme - so he does. He focuses his attention on another attachment, forgetting his mother. He needs love. He went from being unconditionally loved by his mother to a Jedi where 'attachment is forbidden'. So he goes after Padme, needing her love. When she denies him absolutely his thoughts return back to his mother, and he must go to Tatooine. It says a lot about his character - he loves these people, but he loves what they are to HIM. This is why he all of a sudden needs to get to Tatooine, because Padme is no longer an option for that love he desires.

On the Love Story in General:

I truly believe that if it worked then the movie would be as near perfect as possible. I'm still not convinced it doesn't work though.

I have no qualms with Obi-Wan's story arc. He really isn't as important as Anakin, he is the guide, the Gandalf, and basically we do not need to see his character, we need to see how he affects the other characters. The Clone story is just brilliant and it is handled perfectly, it is never obvious what goes on. It is never made clear to the average audience member that the Jedi doomed themselves by finding this army - Lucas actually makes it so the audience has to think it through....GOD FORBID.

But back to the love story. I've heard dialogue complaints up the wazoo. You know what? I liked the dialogue. I thought the whole 'Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love...' scene was perfectly written. Anakin makes it so that it is okay to love Padme - and she is impressed by it, it is in her eyes. The dialogue about how he hates sand, guess what? I think its great too. You know why? Yeah sure its a pick up line, but it conveys something in Anakin. Almost an inadequacy with where he grew up. Later at the funeral when he grabs that handful of sand I thought back to this line of dialogue. He has more reason to hate it, his mother is now buried in it, but he must accept it.

I like the picnic scene. I like how Lucas uses the dialogue to convey a youthful flirting between the two but also the whole dictator thing again shows insight into Anakin. He may be kidding her, but all lies have some truth in it. This one has a lot. "Who will make them? You?" "Ofcourse not me." Yeah, right!

The only scene where the dialogue gets too out there is by the fire - Anakin's speech is too obsessive. It sounds more like he's trying to make those horrid lines sound okay, rather then him speaking to her from the heart...asking her to love him. But the rest of the scene plays out pretty well. We learn that Padme does have feelings for him, but she wont give in. It is the only time where we get to see what she is feeling (prior to her confession) - but the dialogue takes you out of that realization which is unfortunate.

I like that this is not like Han and Leia, where they fall in love while in danger. I like that they got to have this week of peace to actually develop a fondness for one another. And I like that Lucas makes fanboys endure

 

darth homer-

Forrest Gump did go through a change though. In the beginning of the film he was a blathering idiot who didn't know his left from his right. By the end he was far more human. In the sense that while he didn't grow intelligently he grew emotionally. Every great movie has a character arc. It doesn't always have to be as drastic as Vader going from bad to good but you have to look at a character in the beginning of a film and then look at them in the end. They're rarely the same. And if they are, chances are they were a character you probably never connected with.

Even John McClane in Die Hard has a character arc. Hell, even Brendan Frasier in the Mummy has a character arc.

While each individual SW movie probably doesn't have a drastic arc like a stand alone movie would, there is still an arc.

Just compare Luke, Han and Leia in the beginning of a ANH to the end. You can do this for all three movies of the trilogy.

SW has the added of advantage of being a trilogy which allows for even greater amount of character arc. But each trilogy is still a sum of its parts. And its character arcs

 

Excellent post. I have one little bit to add.

"Now, I?ve known both men and women who have fallen in love with people of his type. And, sad to say, many women I have known as friends and lovers have told me tales of knowing somebody was no good, but being drawn to them nonetheless. So I believe the love story is possible. But I don?t buy it in this film. "

I tend to see Padme as more of a savior than a lover. I think GL is trying to make her more like Luke than Leia. Luke saw the good in Vader and I think Padme does as well. After the death of his mother and the initial rejection by Padme, Anakin is in a very bad place. I hope this develops in EpIII. Padme is in a position to save Anakin more than she is to love him. So even if Anakin is a horrible person, the fact that he broke down and admitted it to Padme shows how close they have become, although we have little idea how they got there.

I also don't think a comparison to Han and Leia isn't quite, well fair, for lack of a better word. Han Solo is the deepest character in the SW Universe, and the most rebellious. Pair him up with Leia and you'll get a very long courtship. They were also in the middle of a desperate war so time for thinking about love was limited. Anakin just isn't deep enough to have that kind of courtship. Anakin is willing to give up anything for love ("I'll do anything you ask of me" I think thats the line) and Han was willing to give up love for anything.

I still think George is doing a wonderful job keeping our attention when we all know how it ends anyway...

 

Some really good points here.

I do think Obi-wan has been under-used slightly in AOTC. I know this is Anakins story, but it would be an interesting concept to explore Obi-Wans failure as a teacher to Anakin as he slips to the darkside. Perhaps this will be explored in Episode III, I really hope so, as I think that would give him much more emotional charge. The PT could act as a dual story between Anakins rise to power and Obi-wans mistakes as a mentor, which the OT then tries to rectify.

 

I'm writing up a long post about AotC, but I had to comment on Forrest Gump.

That movie is very strange in that Gump isn't SUPPOSE to change!

Rather, Gump's lack-of-change counterbalances and comments on the ever-changing world / people around him!!! Think of the character arcs that Jenny and Colonel Dan go on.

Because the story is literally told the story by the none-changing Gump, the audience can watch the changing world from a DETACHED perspective, similar to Gump's own.

Great thread!

 

Personally, I don't think that Richard Marquand did much for ROTJ. Of all the movies, it had the sloppiest acting. Both Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher should have been ashamed of themselves. Only Mark Hamill's performance stood out above the others.

My only real problem with AOTC were the courtship scenes with Anakin and Padme. Yes, there were stilted dialogue, but that has always been the case in all of the SW movies. My problem is that there were too many of these scenes and it dragged the first half of the movie.

 

Riddle me this. Let's say you came home one day and your mother was just gone. You managed to track her down after a month and found her tied up in a basement and it was obvious she'd been tortured. There she died. Then let's just say that you had a machine gun and upstairs were 4 or 5 unsuspecting kidnappers who had done this. Wouldn't you feel a slight urge to run up there and just unload on them?

I do like the idea of Aurra Sing following them through Tatooine. Lucas said she would return and there's still one more film to go so....

 

I have to disagree about the drop-the-naboo-and-just-go-to-tatoonine bit. Padme's feelings for Anakin and attachments to him were developed on Naboo BEFORE which WORKS because by the time they reach tatooine it's not so easy to dismiss Anakin even after his slaughter of the Tuskin village. I think George and company made the right decision here.

As for the cliche dialoge.. understand that this would be Anakin's and Padme's FIRST real love.. sure Padme had crushes in the past but she never had anything close to what Anakin was chasing because her duties and responsibilities.

I think a few of the cut scenes could be worked back in to help this out. Perhaps a scene from Padme's home with her sister teasing her and reminding her to live for herself would drive these points further.

 

fitten:

You're kinda of right in that it appears as if gump hasn't changed. But i always found him to be a much different person recanting the story on the bus bench then he is in the beginning.

Ok no more gump conversations. I hate that movie anyway. He was always nothing more than some type of mystical gigolo anyway.

 

To begin with, I agree with everyone who says that Padme should be a bit more fleshed out. But, I have some specific objections:




MadMartigan

Yes, the whole PT is about Anakin. But I would say Padme should also be included somewhere there!

And, like I said:
Tatooine is controlled by the Hutts.
Where would a bounty hunter find leads, witnesses, collaborators in finding Padme, if not on a scum, villanous planet? Don't you think Watto in his new state would sell info about Padme if someone offered him enough money? Tatooine is NOT a logical choice.
Naboo, on the other hand, is also sparsely populated, also isolated, with many places to hide, just as Padme herself says in the film! So, to me, between going to a planet neither me nor Anakin knows what has happened on in the past ten years, and going to a planet I know well, I know what I would choose.

And like I said before, Padme is already ordered around on Coruscant by her security officer, Palpatine and the Jedi Council. So it is perfect that while that brat Anakin starts ordering her around on Naboo, she puts him back to his place with a very Leia-sque "Anakin is only a Padawan learner." "And this is my home, and I know it well."

From story standpoint, Naboo is there not only because it is more photogenic. Please do read my thoughts on her which are in the thread I linked to in my original post. True, a lot of stuff was cut from the film, but there are a couple interesting things remaining.



Madame_Jocasta_Nu

Again, I appeal to my Padme thread. You say we don't know what's in Padme's head. Untrue. We know she's frustrated about having left Coruscant - that's her Amidala part acting(packing scene). But we also know that she - Padme now, not Senator Amidala - is having second thoughts about politics ("Seville" scene). Of all the Naboo memories, she speaks about those from before her leadership (kiss scene). She allows a budding political discussion to be turned into teasing (picnic scene). She doesn't say anything about being the Queen, save that she was relieved when it ended. It's all there! We know she'd like something else in her life. The only thing we don't know is that this something is a stable relationship - this is what the family scene would give us. So this could be gardening, fencing, anything... It's not like Padme knows at this point in her life, except for a little change from what she did.

And do we need to speak about Padme's behaving like the Jedi in this relationship? We see it explicitly on screen, in the first kiss scene, and in the fireplace scene.

And one more thing I mentioned in my thread. Think like a Naboo for a second. Compare what Padme says with what she's wearing.


Sith-order
I am not quite sure if "Anakin is only a Padawan" was accidental... For me, it looks like she's telling everyone in the room outright that she is the one who makes decisions.