Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by DarthLascivious, May 23, 2002.
Lovely lovely thread.
I'm sorry I haven't had time to read the last page of comments as I am heading out the door but I just wanted to add this about the Tusken scene and Padme. Forgive me if it's been posted before.
Here is a snippett cut from the film:
ANAKIN picks up a framed hologram.
Is this you?
The hologram shows Padme at age seven or eight surrounded by forty or fifty little green creatures. She is holding one in her arms. They are all smiling hugely.
That was when I went with the
Relief Group to Shadda-Bi-Boran. Their sun was imploding, and the planet was dying. I was helping to relocate the children. See that little one I'm holding? His name was N'a-kee-tula, which means sweethear. He was so full of life,. All those kids were. I did everything I could to save him, but he died... they all did. They were never able to adapt... to live off their native planet.
I am in the camp that would have rather seen Anakin make his confession to Owen and Cliegg as I can understand how they might be able to react to it with understanding and a bit of fear, and give weight to Owen's fear of Luke growing up to be like his father in the OT. But given the passage above I just think it's way too much of a stretch for Padme's character to do the same. Even for love.
Great thread BTW, nice to see so many old farts coming out of retirement for some good discussion.
I seem to have a very different outlook on the "love story" than anyone else. For myself, the only scenes that I might've done a little differently are the fireplace scene (I think there was a little too much dialog on Anakin's part here, but I liked how Padme was fidgeting and pulling away), and the love pledge (again, too much dialog but this time on Padme's part; and I think Padme should've sounded less sure of her feelings, more broken).
I believed that she was attracted to him physically and as a person she could fix, which is important to her, but I didn't believe she was truly in love with him. And Anakin, well, I only really believed he was obsessed with her. The thing that makes my outlook different than anyone else is that I don't believe we are meant to think they are truly in love. I tend to feel that we're supposed to be seeing her make a very unwise and brash decision that she will later come to regret in Episode III. A decision she only made because she honestly thought she was about to die.
Regarding cutting out Naboo completely -- this would have raised too many eyebrows I think. Tattooine isn't under the Republic's control, and is in fact well known to be under control by gangsters (the Hutt). They can't very well send refugees to a system out of their control. Refugees are supposed to travel to a safe haven, not a haven of scum & villainy.
And I agree with others re: Obi-Wan. Seeing his character is important, seeing him grow is not. I actually think it might've been a little too much, considering the focus is really on Anakin and to a lesser extent Padme.
Some of the other points are interesting, particularly about foreshadowing within this movie. It might have been nice to see Dooku on Geonosis at some point early on, I'm just not sure when.
Great posts everyone.
"The family scenes are understandably cut - they are a bunch of scenes to show us one thing - Padme wants a family but has been denied that. You dont need the family to show us that, we are told she went from being Queen straight to being a Senator."
Indeed. But I think the family scenes added more than that, though. It revealed PadmÃ© from the eyes of people who know her well and love her, and don't care much for the Senator. I also loved the opposition between PadmÃ© and Anakin's backgrounds exposed by those scenes.
"Lucas doesn't need to spell out to me that Padme feels for Anakin when his mother dies - that she is a fixer, a healer, and her love could come from her desire to help this person. It's just that by the time she confesses her love I don't get the feeling that she does love him."
Good point. I had not considered it from this angle but it might well explain my initial reaction better than what I first thought : that there was something missing between the confession and the pledge to prove to me that PadmÃ© has changed and accepted her love for Anakin, that she now truly loved him.
The first time it really didn't work for me, exactly like you. Now that I have digested everything, rationalized what's missing and that I've convinced myself that at least PadmÃ© deeply, truly *believes* she is in love with Anakin I found the scene quite powerful on subsequent viewings. I hope the same thing happens for you!
"now I think that there is enough there to JUSTIFY their love, just not the feeling that they are in love by that confession."
You know, could the key be that they are not *really* in love? Maybe we expect too much of this romance. In fact, old couple would say right away that they can't be in love for real, love grows, love takes time. So fast it's passion, it's hormones, it's most of all the pressure of the dire events that befall them in the last few days. Assassination attempts, PadmÃ©'s ideals that are crumbling and her feeling of being made useless outside Coruscant, the death of Anakin's mother and PadmÃ©'s feelings that she could be the one to help him, the war etc. Anakin is in a desperate need for love, alternating between his real but lost love for his mother and his love and lust for an idealized PadmÃ© he dreamed of for ten years. With her hard work, the object of all her devotion going totally to waste with war PadmÃ© is also faced with a dead end and here is in front of her someone real who very concretely needs her right now, begs her to help him. In the end, is it real love or just the human nature that throws together two vulnerable individuals whose worlds just shattered, who seemingly have lost the power to control their life - Anakin not being "all powerful" and PadmÃ© unable to stop the war - and who desperately need something to hang on to not to sink altogether? At that point, what's there for them but each other?
After all, this is not a romance that will evolve into a great love story one day. It's doomed from the start, it's a destructive love. It will be over in two years.
It's a love that will destroy PadmÃ© and Anakin and scars the Galaxy for years. No doubt PadmÃ© will be involved in Anakin's turn to the dark side (partly responsible for it or, IMO, just used by someone else - but it is presently a matter for speculation) and in turn no doubt Anakin will contribute to anihilate everything PadmÃ© stood for since the beginning of the story : democracy, compassion, perhaps destroying PadmÃ© herself (not by killing her, but by destroying their family life etc.).
Tar-Jin : I agree with a lot of what you say. There's no debate there really. Good point about the clothes too. I was discussing elsewhere that PadmÃ©'s feelings for Anakin are betrayed by the way she dressed herself and that she must have felt very embarassed to realize how she was dressed at the supper when she saw how it turned out. And I'm sure this is intentional from Lucas. And you can feel her embarassment in the fireside scene. Her head says something, her bo
Let me start by saying that I love this thread, and its threads like this one that respect everyone's opinions that are great.
You have many excellent points and I wouldn?t want to waste space by writing ?Ditto.?
The only point you made that I disagree with is your take on the confession. I feel it?s the most powerful moment in the film, the best dialogue written for the film, and the best acting Hayden gets to do.
I want to write about everything, but I?ll start with
THE LOVE STORY
The love story has problems in dialogue, but the REAL problem is in pacing and execution.
Let?s look at the ORDER of the scenes:
AMIDALA PACKS ? The scene ends with Amidala telling Ani to ?Stop looking at me like that. It makes me uncomfortable.? Ani may smile, but the main impression is that she WAS uncomfortable with him.
ANI/AMIDALA SAY GOODBYE TO FRIENDS ? They?re both nervous about their upcoming journey, BUT they seem at ease with each other. NO SIGN of the discomfort that Amidala showed the last time we saw her.
ANI/AMIDALA ON THE CRUISER ? The attraction is very slight? Ani attempts to be charming and make her smile. He?s flirting.
ANI/AMIDALA WALK TO THE PALACE ? Mainly exposition, but Ani?s flirting has suddenly disappeared! He compliments her work in the Senate? but he does so from a position of intelligence Jedi-wannabe, rather than from a position of charming flirtatious man.
ANI/AMIDALA MEET THE NEW QUEEN ? Their interaction is this scene revolves around Amidala?s crushing blow to Ani?s ego ?He?s not a Jedi.? Ani?s hurt and Amidala doesn?t even appear to feel bad that she hurt him. The scene continues with them getting into a ?power struggle.?
Let?s STOP and see what we have: one scene, Amidala?s creeped out by Ani, the next she appears receptive to his charms. She?s inconsistent. Half the time they seem to fight/Half the time they are the exact opposite and are playful flirting with each other. Let?s progress.
ANI/AMIDALA FIRST KISS - Despite the fact that the last time we saw them, they appeared to be fighting, they now seem at ease with each other and in fact, are drawn to a kiss. BUT in the most important moment, Amidala pulls away. Now this should really affect her? she just kissed somebody and realized it was wrong. This would make her incredibly UNCOMFORTABLE AROUND HIM, but in the next scene---
ANI/AMIDALA PICNIC ? SOUND OF MUSIC ? Now, if you had just had an uncomfortable moment with someone? would you go on a picnic with them. Would you playfully talk about ex-boyfriends and such? Anyway, this scene gets back to the fun play flirting and the dialogue isn?t that bad.
ANI/AMIDALA DINNER ? At least, they stay consistent from the previous scene. They?re flirting with each other. But we cut straight from this scene to:
AMI/AMIDALA FIREPLACE CHAT ? This scene starts and they?re already in a ?fight?: Ani wants to keep going and Amidala doesn?t. Lucas didn?t show us the transition from playful flirting to serious talking about ?stopping?.
SO IF I WERE GOING TO REWRITE THE ROMANCE, WHAT WOULD I DO?
STEP ONE: Decide on the nature of the courtship. Do they fall in love while fighting with each other a la Han and Leia? Do they fall in love through playful flirtation? Either could work, I?m not sure Lucas picked one.
Yes, you could have the relationship have both sides but then YOU?D have to show the transitions from one side to the next. In many ways, it?s the most dramatic moments, and Lucas tends not to show them.
I?d stick with the puppy-dog flirtatious courtship. Amidala can say ?Don?t look at me like that, it makes me uncomfortable? but don?t make her look uncomfortable. Make it seem even flirtatious teasing. Same with the ?He?s not a Jedi yet? She could say it but feel sorry for hurting his feelings? i.e.: show that she cares about him. I?d have Ani ALWAYS flirting.
STEP TWO: I?d rearrange the
Your original post was very insightful and a great read. I very much respect what you've said. and I'd like to give my personal take on the love story of the film, as well as the rest overall. Hopefully what I say won't seem to redundant
First of all, having Anakin and Padme come together is REQUIRED for the rest of the story, and I think that as many have said George cut this film down to the bare minimum for what had to occur. Having so much to tell in one film requires the filmmaker to make sacrifices....serious sacrifices. With some of the original scenes on Naboo included, that entire segment would have had much more purpose. The family scenes would have made Padme's feelings and motives much more clear, and I HOPE and PRAY that they will be included on the DVD. Naboo is also really one of the most beautiful and peaceful places in the Star Wars saga, and in AOTC it is really the only "beautiful" and "safe" locations ...which makes a nice contrast from the film's other locales (Coruscant, Tatooine, Kamino, Geonosis) which host much more danger and darkness.
I think that the dialogue had a very "classical" tone to it, which makes the love story much less modern and witty than Han and Leia's love. This to me can be looked at as a good thing, as it once again contrasts the OT.
The romantic dialogue on the transport and at the lake didn't really bother me at all. However, some of the dialogue was a little awkward...just a slight change to some of it could have made a vast improvement. For example Padme's line about "following your thoughts to conclusion" just sounded too formal. She could have said something more simple and informal, such as "if you look down the path that this would lead us"...even that sounds a bit formal, but it has more feeling to it. The heavy use of phrases like "cannot" "do not" "will not" etc. also made things too formal. There were a few spots like this here and there that could have been made more personal, but overall it didn't hurt the film drastically. I thought that the actors did well with what they were given.
I thought that the love story shined when Anakin and Padme travelled to Tatooine. Here there was more passion and caring displayed, and the dialogue was much more personal. As Anakin stands outside of the homestead, and Padme says his name as they embrace, I could really feel their caring for each other. The same goes for the confession scene where Anakin finally breaks down. Here Padme is the mother figure, one whose goal is to care and protect others...and in this case it is Anakin, who's she'd cared about since she first met him in TPM as an innocent child.
Their interactions on Geonosis were also well done. The plegde scene, while again having a 'classical' feel, gave a great sense of compassion, and tragedy. The small kiss on the cheek when Padme joins Anakin on top of the reek was also a nice little touch. The argument between Obi-Wan and Anakin on the gunship also displays real emotion, and I found it very convincing as to how much Anakin really cared.
Sorry to have babbled this far, but I really felt like finally putting out my thoughts on this. I thought that overall the story was very successful. I liked Obi-Wan's "Sherlock Holmes" investigation, and I am really anxious to see more of the political back-story scenes if they're going to be included on the DVD. I thought that the love story, although it has some weaknesses, was successful and satisfying enough. It had enough shining moments that outweighed the awkward ones, and it convinced me. Episode III is going to get really tense, and sad...I CAN'T WAIT.
Great posts everyone. This is one of the few topics I have seen where people were respectful to eachother, and I though the points were balanced well. There were probablly things I would do differently too, but I can't think of them right now. I really enjoyed the movie though, and I plan to see it again tommorow.
It never fails to impress me how well some people can express their thoughts and feelings in words. Darth Lascvicious, Jocasta Nu and others have put words to the things floating around my head better than I ever could have.
If I may humbly throw my 2 cents in to the discussion:
I am no screenwriter, but it seems to me that the main problem is not that the love story is unconvincing or that we don't know enough about character A at point B in the plot. It's that all this stuff that is "missing" from the movie is actually either there in the screenplay or, more likely, in the novelization. It seems to be more of an editing issue than anything else.
I am halfway through the novelization and already I can feel myself "buying" into their romance more. The novel fills in ALOT of the missing pieces, and really gives you the additional insight into their thoughts and feelings that does more than just dot the i's and cross the t's. It fleshes everything out.
I find myself hoping that GL will have a director's cut version of AotC on the DVD, with the Lost Twenty scene in the Library, the family scenes on Naboo, etc already added into the story. The deleted scenes feature is always the first place I head on any DVD after viewing the movie, but I am always left with a nagging emptiness wishing I could have seen that integrated into the movie. I am exciting by the prospect that since these scenes mostly never make it in there because of their difficulty to integrate given that they were cut at different stages of production, that the bluescreen technology along with the fully digital nature of this film might ease that laborious process.
Since I am not in the professional movie writing or critiquing business, I would like to know why GL feels a need to stick to the 2hr 15 min template for his films. I think an extra 15 minutes could have made all the difference in the world for Episode II, and wouldn't think a 150 minute long movie is that much worse than a 135 one.
Is anyone starting a petition to send to Lucas requesting he just not cut any scenes from Ep III? I'd sign it, just as surely as I'd sit through a 3 hr Episode III. I for the life of me can't see how he could do everything that needs to be done in this next movie in his standard timeframe...are longer movies really that bad (business wise)? Couldn't Ep III be an exception?
First things first... I applaud DL for starting this thread and I applaud those of you who have contributed intelligently to this discussion... there may actually be hope for the JC
I'm no writer, only a fan. I do, however, want to comment on some of the things said here and I'll try to be brief.
Yes Dooku should have appeared earlier in the film. No argument there. Something... anything.
No, Obi Wan didn't need to go through massive changes in this film... he's already gone through them these past 10 years. We're just seeing who he is and exactly how "not ready to train Anakin or anyone else for that matter" he is. He has a tremendous amount of difficulty with Anakin for two reasons. Anakin is too headstrong and arrogant and He (Obi Wan) just wasn't ready to be a teacher. To invlove him in a huge life change during this film would have been ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.
Naboo was important to the movie. It gave them time to be alone.
What if Padme grabs Anakin's hand during the funeral? Nah, she shows enough emotion by hugging him before he leaves for Shmi. It is all there - I just havent gotten the feeling by the confession in the arena.
The decision to go to Tattoine from Naboo should have been Padme's. Plain and simple. It would have showed you early on that she really did care for him and could feel the pain he was going through.
Anakin: My Mother is in pain, I can feel it.
Padme: Then why don't you go and save her.
Anakin: I'm forbidden to.
Padme: look Ani, I've been thinking. Maybe Naboo isn't such a good place for me to be afterall... I think we should go to Tattooine.
Anakin: The Council would never allow it.
Padme: well, the Council told you to be my bodyguard and I'm going to Tattoine.
The first thing that would accomplish is that it would make Anakin begin to feel that it was okay with Padme if he broke the rules every now and then and it would also change, completely, the post-Tusken confession scene. Instead of Padme standing there looking horrified as Anakin tells her about killing the Tuskens she would have been standing there thinking
"Oh my God... what have I done? This is all my fault... why did I insist we come to Tattooine?"
Anakin would no longer be the madman who slaughtered innocent women and children... in her eyes he would be the victim.
I'd believe her arena confession of love then...
Well, I'm not a screenwriter, but I do write. Cutting no scenes would be a disaster. Maybe WE would like it, but you can't neglect the average movie-goer. Most people will not sit through things that may not even be necessary. I think another part of the problem (a small part) is that we knew all this stuff was going to be there. That's why I'm spoiler free this time.
I'll play too Fitten.
Here's my Love Story fix.
1) Palpatine essentially orders Padme to leave Coruscant. Anakin is assigned to protect.
2) They pack same as in the movie. I liked that scene.
3) Journey to Naboo. But its not easy. Its tense. And they're not safe yet. Padme's nervous and frightened. Here we see Anakin comfort her in a very human moment.
ANAKIN: You have nothing to worry about. I'm a Jedi. And I will protect you.
PADME: (nervously joking) But who will protect you?
Maybe Anakin's lighter side comes through he jokes to ease the tension.
4) Now here's where it diverges. From what I recall didn't Palpatine know where they were going? The whole trip to Naboo is just another set up by Palps. On the way they're attacked by a small fleet of trade federation starships (What happened to those BTW?)
The pilots are killed and Anakin must take over the controls. In a dazzling display of skill, Anakin manages to escape.
5) Both realize Naboo is no longer safe. Anakin thinks of a ploy that will throw off there pursuers.
6) They ditch the ship in some outer rim cess pool of a planet. They board the Star Wars equivalent of a space bus ( a dirty disgusting, alien filled ship). Which takes them to nearest planet. Tatooine. (there's enough coincidences already. what's one more?)
7) they arrive on Tatooine. Track down Schmi. Who at this point is still alive. And find her at the Lars's.
8) Here I adapt some of the Naboo stuff to tatooine. Namely the waterfall stuff which I also kinda liked. Having this take place with Schmi would incorporate her better. She takes a lot of pride in how he's turned out. And he regrets the time lost.
9) Anakin and Padme go off (maybe for a romantic interlude or maybe something tips them off they may be in danger again. a probe droid?)
10) Later they return to see the homestead has been attacked by what appears to be Tusken Raiders (it'll later be revealed in Ep3 that Palp's was behind it. Further pushing Anakin to the dark side)
Lightsaber lit, Anakin searches the Homestead. Soon finding a tied up Owen and Beru and a dying Cliegg. Anakin discovers Schmi has been taken.
11) He wants to go after them. Padme, crying, tries to make him stop.
PADME: You're here to protect me Anakin
ANAKIN: (angry) I'm not going to sit
here while those beasts kill my mother.
Anakin's anger turns to tears as the inner conflict tears him up. Should he leave Padme or stay?
OWEN: They may return. we can't defend
But Anakin has already decided what he must do. he looks at Padme once more then hops on the swoop bike toward the binary sunset.
12) When he returns its pretty much the same as before except I think Padme should comfort him more. Maybe get them out of the hut so we get a nice shot of the sunset again.
13) They get the message that OBi is in trouble. But Anakin is depressed and somewhat angry at the Jedi for keeping him from his mother that he's reluctant. Forcefully Padme makes Anakin come.
PADME: (Angry) You did all you could for your mother. But there's still a chance to save Obi Wan. If you stay here you will lose everything!
And then we cut back into the rest of the movie.
First of all, I love this thread. It's amazingly insightful and actually thought-provoking. There's too much here to respond to each point individually, but here are my thoughts:
Granted, he doesn't change during the film, but I believe he is very well fleshed-out regardless. Vertical mentioned the scenes at the bar/diner, and the discussion with Fett as important scenes, but little hints like Obi being lost in thought at the archives while staring at a bust of Qui Gon are brilliant. Obi-Wan is very well written, and I think he'll become the Han Solo of the PT
I agree with other posters that more of the politics of the republic should have been shown at the beginning of the film. A kindlier perspective of dooku could have been provided at this time.
Others have commented on his presence being downright insulting on the end of the film, but I think his humor (and I do view him as a humorous character, unlike old jar-jar) is used to lighten what should be a horribly dark scene--the outbreak of war and the deaths of 150+ jedi. I'd keep it
(On the note of JAR-JAR, does anyone else find it incredibly appropriate that HE is responsible for the vote making chancellor palpatine emperor palpatine? i definitely laughed inside during that scene)
I very much regret the cutting of this scene. The build-up is very well done, the dialogue between ani and shmi is believable and emotional (unlike in TPM, IMO), and then...cut! I can only imagine the dark beauty of this scene...ani cuts through the village as duel plays in the background, then, after finishing, he surveys what he has done, tosses his lightsaber away, and sinks to his knees. The choral emperor's theme from the OT plays as the camera pulls back, revealing the full horror of anakin's actions. What a potentially emotional, horrifying scene.
I agree with most of what has been posted here: Anakin is pretty believable as the hormonal, passionate, inexperienced teen, but I just can't understand Amidala. Perhaps if there had been less romantic dialogue and more love-through-action, as has been suggested, her feelings would be more believable. I have two prescriptions: the easier one, that her declaration of love is less definite and heavy handed on genoasis. The more difficult suggestion is that they never reach naboo--more time is spent in dialogue on the hauler (which, i imagine, would take awhile to get to naboo, being a freighter). After a decent amount of dialogue, the hauler is raided by pirates (showing not only the results of a weakened republic, but ALSO creating mystery as to whether or not the pirates were mercs hired to assasinate amidala). Ami and Ani escape and go to Tatooine. But that idea is purely fantasy going through my head as I read this thread...
Anyway. That's all my ideas for now. On an unrelated note, this is my first post on these boards, despite my lifelong love of SW. Thanks for providing such an intelligent thread in the first place
(It appears Mardigan presented a similar idea to mine while I typed. Hats off to you )
Also, if my previous scenario doesn't work for you then perhaps this will:
Don't tell Padme about the Tuskens. Don't tell anyone. Later, after Padme and Anakin leave Tattoine have Owen and Beru find the Tusken camp with all of the dead bodies. They would know it was Anakin and that would add a tremendous amount of weight to the comments by Owen and Beru in ANH. Also it would make Padme being in love with Anakin a lot easier to believe.
You know what has suprised me most about the whole PT, is how little faith most people have in Lucas.
I feel like way too many people have jumped the gun and made their own conclusions about Lucas' writing and directing. It's so shocking to me.I feel like Im the only one that has faith.
I believe that a big reason he is having so much trouble is that people do not understand what he is doing. Their first reaction is to believe that Lucas has "lost it" or never knew what he was doing in the first place.Instead of realizing he is EXPERIMENTING with modern movie conventions in a way that he couldnt do as effectively in the OT.
It also amazes me that people praise Peter jackson for LOTR considering that Lucas is telling his episodic epic in a much more satisfying way.
Compare the transitions between the end of ep.1 and 2 of star wars and ep.1 and 2 of LOTR.
I just do not understand why everyone is second guessing Lucas this time around.
I liked your idea of the Tusken scene. My feeling is that was the most important scene in the PT so far. Yet it seemed like an after thought. I can totally see a fusion of the Emperor's theme and Vader's as he falls to his knees.
I was really pissed with the cut away from that scene. I read the screenplay after and that scene as written was absolutely chilling.
If Lucas was concerned about a PG13 rating, then what about on the conveyor when Anakin hacks up a hundred geonosians? Is it ok because they're not humanoid looking? Or did it come down to choosing either Anakin hacking up Tuskens or Geonaosians? If it did then that was a horrible choice.
Once again. An underused villian. Which is exacerbated because that also means an underused Christopher Lee.
Dooku doesn't necessarily need that much more screen time. Just look at Maul. The only difference is that even though Maul wasn't on screen his presence was always felt. I thought the title phantom menace summed up what i felt about Maul perfectly.
Dooku somehow should have been introduced early and ominously in AOTC. It didn't have to be a big thing. Just a quick scene. Someone before (maybe on another thread) had mentioned how they liked in ANH that there was some cutting between the Imperials and the rebels. maybe something along the lines of a scene where Dooku manipulates or coerces a system to join the separatists.
not to sound harsh but what some call "experimenting" others call rationalizing. And I also think it's pretty damn near impossible to compare the transitions between LOTR and Ep1 & Ep2 since the Two Towers hasn't come out yet. I will say one thing though. 10 years doesn't pass between FOTR and Two Towers which means characters won't have to reintroduce themselves to each other.
Mad MArdigan, Ep.1 is a prologue. When you realize that episode one works perfectly.
This is also the reason why its shocking to people, have you ever seen an entire film that was a prologue. Probably not, I cant think of one? Does that mean it shouldnt be done? I dont think so at all, I think it works perfectly.
By transition I meant the way you felt at the end of Ep.1. I dont know about you but I felt way more satisfied with the resolution of episode 1 than I did with the resolution, if you can call it that , of LOTR 1. That was the weirdest ending ever!
From what I understand Jackson was being faithful to the books. I dont really know though, I havnt read them.
I thought TPM was a much more satisfying and well written story than LOTR. True Lucas was inspired by LOTR, but I'm not looking for excuses here. I am simply going on which movie was written better. For me there is no contest TPM all the way. Thats why I dont understand why Lucas is hammered so much and Jackson is beloved. Just bizarre to me.
Before I get flamed :
> of LOTR 1. That was the weirdest ending ever!
Exactly how I felt. How long was the movie, like 3 hours, and then BLAM ! One thing it did do, it surprised me when it ended so abruptly.
I believe that a big reason he is having so much trouble is that people do not understand what he is doing. There first reaction is to believe that Lucas has "lost it" or never knew what he was doing in the first place.Instead of realizing he is EXPERIMENTING with modern movie conventions in a way that he couldnt do as effectively in the OT.
Nope, I don't buy that. I feel that all along (through the OT, which I love) there are strengths and weaknesses to Lucas, both as a writer and director. I consider one of his great strengths to be pulling a story together into a general form -- witness SW (duh) and also Raiders. However, I'm of the firm opinion that he also works better when given strong colloborators... and this time around it seems that simply isn't there for him as it used to be.
The problems I have with AOTC (and TPM) be easily be traced back into the OT, where Lucas clearly was more interested with creating a general spectacle than writing nuanced characters and working with his actors. That he found people to work with him in those areas he was weaker in is a credit to him.
AOTC, regardless of its place in the PT, needs to be examined as a self-contained story. While not everything should be explained, the actions in the movie should make sense within the context they are given, EVEN IF we learn information later that gives us new (and different) appreciation of the scenes.
I feel that generally Lucas labored over-much on the romance (and it shows -- the writing feels very strained) and neglected a key component of Anakin's eventual descent to the Dark Side -- his relationship with his mother, which, ironically, was one of the better character developments from TPM. It's not enough to simply say "he misses his mom -- oh yeah, she's missing, and he'll go rescue her now" -- we need to SEE this develop of his longing for his mother and her safety and his duty as a Jedi-to-be. Imagine if he had to choose between the two, in a manner that actually put the other in harm's way. Suppose Amidala was in great danger, and he found out that his mother had been kidnapped? One of the first things you learn as a writer is to make things as DIFFICULT as possible for your characters. Having him dart off to Tatooine doesn't really force him to make a hard decision, and as such the ultimate moment, while touching, doesn't nearly have the unbelievable impact it could have.
All credit to HC Pernilla August for giving it the impact it had, in those brief seconds while that particular subplot was resolved.
Last thing (for now): I firmly believe that fore-knowledge of the movie ruins the capacity to really judge how well it unfolds on screen.
> things as DIFFICULT as possible for your characters
I think he did that when they were confronting the arena monsters, and then when the group of Jedi's was surrounded by Droidekas.
But hey, not a professional writer here.
And what do you mean by fore-knowledge of the movie, you mean TPM , etc ? I see these movies as very interconnected, Empire wouldn't have made a lot of sense to me if I hadn't seen a new Hope. And let's not even mention Return of the Jedi.
AOTC, regardless of its place in the PT, needs to be examined as a self-contained story
WHy does it? Who made this rule? This is the problem that people have. This is what people dont get.
These are the conventions I was talking about. When you read one chapter of a book does everything have to be explained? Does everything have to be resolved?
I THINK what he means is reading all of the spoilers for the movie. I did, and I wish I didn't. It didn't make the movie bad or anything (I still loved it), but I think it would have been much more suprising when certain things happened (like the Death Star).
I agree with the fact it isn't fair to compare the two romances. BUT...it appears appealing to this is useless.
As far as H/L just "bickering and falling into each others arms..." NO! It didn't happen like that. They bicker in ANH because their personalities spark together/Clash and whatnot. They just met.
In ESB...they are bickering...but WHY...because Leia didn't want him to leave and Han wants her to admit she loves him. Clearly something took place in Ord Mandell or whatever. They were obviously friends from ANH to ESB (along with Luke) and now it is turning into more between them and they are both unwilling to just accept it. Finally faced with death they do.
Now look at A/P....they meet for a few days when Anakin is nine and Padme is fourteen. They don't see each other for ten years and in a few days they get married.
Now I am one of those people that are willing to suspend disbelief about such things if the chemistry is good and I like the story. Well they DO have great chemistry and I sort of like the story. So I can buy it, but I just wish that Anakin and Obi-wan had been watching Padme for a few months at least...and this is the first time Anakin and Padme are alone. THAT I think would have helped the story.
Failing that...they should have cut the Naboo scenes. It seemed like those scenes could have taken place while the action was going on, rather then have them just go on a vacation. Naboo is beautiful, but you don't need beautiful locations to make a great love story.
Also they shouldn't have been so forthcoming about their feelings. At least Padme shouldn't have. Let Anakin profess his love but have Padme be standoffish, making him think she cared for him but still saw him as "That Little boy on Tatooin."
OF course the audience, by her eyes, and gazes would see that she WAS starting to fall for him but Anakin would be in the dark.
That whole fireside scene just didn't work on many levels. First of all I don't think it was Lucas's intention to have Anakin seem so creepy, secondly Padme should have been colder and more direct. She seemed wishy washy.
Let her remain "cold" (Though not completely mean or b*tchy) and then after Tatooine, and on Geonosis she admits her love...would have been so much better. Though it is done very beautifully it is very anti-climactic.
Those conflicts were after the fact and were more of a plot conflict than a character conflict.
I think what telemachos is trying to say is that things were too easy for the Padme/Anakin story.
A movie essentially has three acts. The Set Up. The Conflict. The Resolution.
The Set Up introduces the characters and the conflict. But its Act 2 where a movie is made. Here everything has to go wrong for the protagonists. The proverbial **** has to hit the fan. So by act 3 we're sitting in a darkened theatre wondering "how are they gong to get out of this."
Most of the elements to a story have to be introduced in the first act. That doesn't mean wrinkles or something new can't be introduced in act 2. They can. They just can't be too big unless they were set up easily. For instance. In the middle of AOTC Padme can't suddenly have super powers and be able to fly like Superman. Unless it was set up in act I.
A romance structure works something like this.
Act 1) Characters meet. A general attraction is evident.
Act II) Forces (conflict) struggle to keep them apart
Act III) They are able to defeat the forces and act on their feelings
Basically, Act 2 of the love story had no conflict. Yes, they SAID there was conflict. But no conflict was ever SHOWN.
An old screenwriting adage goes something like this, "A gun can't be fired in act 2 if it wasn't cocked in act I."
Using the gun analogy. The whole Shmi thing was executed by the quickest draw in the west.
Now if they're were some conflict set up earlier in the movie between Anakin and his mother, say, Anakin trying to get permission to see her and the Council denying it then the gun would be cocked in Act I. However, even if the gun were to be cocked in act I, it still fired a blank. GL had a great scene in point blank range and missed like Greedo on a bad day with that hack job in editing.
"examined" was a poor choice of words.
At the end of the day, despite its place in the larger picture of the trilogy, AOTC is a single film. Elements within it, while building upon others from the other films and setting up ones for future films, should be resolved -- to a degree -- within it.
You can't simply say, "Oh, that makes no sense... wait three years to find out" -- that's ridiculous and will put off most audiences. (I don't count us fans, because we'll see it regardless.)
Re: spoilers. Yes, I meant that essentially you go into it spoiled, but also spoiled for critical examination of HOW things work and whether they do. My first viewing of ANY film is largely responsible for my examination of it in terms of basic story structure, characters, etc because I'm not familiar with it. Things need to be shown and explained so I can understand -- it's an intangible feeling you get, when the movie and you are moving at a perfect pace together: you understand exactly what's happening and you're with the characters 100% but things are also developing at just the right pace for you to keep up yet feel the movie isn't "too straightforward". If you know all the details of what will happen and how they'll happen, you lose a great deal of insight into how it feels to be a virgin member of the audience WATCHING the story unfold. I shouldn't have to explore a website or read the novelization to understand a scene -- it should be there on screen.
Now, there's certainly plenty of things that you can pick up on with additional viewings, more subtleties, and perhaps you notice something that explains away something you had a problem with the first time around. But that first viewing is essential for basic stuff like pacing. If your butt itches in your seat, that's a sign that the movie is hitting a slow point.
I exaggerate, but hopefully that makes things a bit clearer.