AOTC - From a Writer's POV

Gonk says:

Of course, it could be argued that Obi-Wan's dream is not fulfilled on Naboo in that way either, so there's something of a blurr (sic) there, I'll admit.

In fact, I think there's no blur at all. Though Lucas seems unwilling to define Obi-Wan outside of his relationship with the Skywalker family, it can be reasonably inferred from what we have seen that his own, peronal dream is to become a Jedi Master. This happens as a consequence of the battle on Naboo, which confirms Gonk.

 

The problem with being a film expert is that it can make you miss out on the joy in films. Notice that nearly everyone who bashes AOTC is full of ideas about how they would have done the story. It's like they forgot to sit back and enjoy Lucas's story.
It's the same in the music forum. The people are outraged that Lucas cut up William's score for AOTC, but the average moviegoer wouldn't care or even notice.
There's nothing wrong with been critical, especially if you can make a living out of it. But I prefer to be a Star Wars fan first and a critic last.
Except with TPM and ROTJ - I hate those films

 

How can you hate any Star Wars film? Unless you're a critic?

 

Bed Speling says:

DarthSkeptical's take on the love story had me thinking. But I concluded that for it to work that way more things need to be introduced into the movie to signal to us that "something isn't quite right there". Perhaps the background could have been designed in an off-beat way to signal the discomforting 'not-quite-rightness' of their love. But as the movie stands, the backgrounds were typical love story cliches (rolling hill, fireplace). The writer has to get the 'not-quite-right'-ness just right for the love story to acquire the necessary disturbing resonance.

Exactly. Typical "romance" is doomed in the SW universe. The successful romance is the one based on equality, not the one based on youthful longing and immature ideas of love. I think GL is actively trying to contrast Han/Leia with Padmé/Anakin, and to make comment upon the natures of their romance. Anakin's love is based on the shallow appreciation of Padmé as an object of beauty, and Padmé's appreciation of Anakin as someone to take care of. Leia and Han share a spark of physical attraction, yes, but they fall in love with each other's personalities because they work together for a common cause, and can see the special talents each brings to the table. Remember: these are explicitly visual movies. The backgrounds have a thematic consequence, a meaning. Anakin falls in love against a beautiful background, one that (we believe) should be the "perfect" place to fall in love, but his relationship is totally doomed. Leia falls in love amidst chaotic backgrounds, but in the end (at least as far as the films are concerned) her relationship endures.

I believe GL is making an active statement about the nature of love, here. He's not, I think, just getting his characters to a point we know they have to be prior to Episode IV.

 

Great post Darth Lascivious!!!

I also wondered what the hell Padme saw in Anakin. He is sooo mentally unstable, dealing with so many issues in his young life. He's a freakin' timebomb.

But then again, compare that to our reality... there are young women out there who love to mother these types of men. So was Padme a mothering type? Is she mentally unstable as well? Do they both need to see a therapist?? Should they have read Dr. Laura's 10 Stupid Things Couples Do To Mess Up Their Lives??

Okey dokes.....too much time on my hands on this Memorial Day holiday....hahahaha

 

I still think Empire blows AOTC out of the water artistically. Not just in the script writing department, but also in directing. Seeing Lando with Vader's shoulder taking up half the screen is so representative of the situation at that time reminds me of a shot from "The Seventh Seal". The movie starts with a search and ends in a search. Luke is attacked by a giant creature in white at the beginning and then a creature in black at the end to see how much he's learned and/or grown. Foreshadowing inside the asteroid in the way it's written and phototgraphed to show that Cloud City is a hidden danger. Montage with Han & Leia splitting from their kiss and then cutting to a star destroyer getting smashed by an asteroid (I think-maybe not). I just don't see these type of things in AOTC.
I saw more of this stuff in TPM. The editing during the Palpatine and Amidala scene where everytime Palpatine walks in front of the camera there's a cut, to show that Palpatine is crossing Amidala, the same thing happens again when Qui-Gon says he'll train Anakin, Obi-Wan gets crossed by Qui-Gon in the editing. The shadow of Palpatine on the landing platform where he's waiting.

 

i agree with a.block - in fact, to even begin comparing AOTC with ESB is pure sacrilege. the sheer volume of emotion in ESB from the protagonist's POV isn't even nearly equalled in AOTC. a quick example off the top of my head would be luke losing his hand - absolute devastation. so in AOTC, anakin loses an arm and nobody bats an eyelid. i feel the truth is, even if they tried to boost its impact, few would care because we simply don't identify with him as we did luke.

 

Good point Duckman.

A close friend of mine is an editor in the film industry and I think it hurts his enjoyment of movies. There has been a noticable increase in his criticism of film, and I think that a lot of it has to do with his knowledge of how films are made.

I consider myself an astute moviegoer, but I would NEVER have noticed many of the things pointed out here, or by my friend.

This doesn't alter my experience one bit, because truth is, you could disect any movie and discover its flaws, granted some more than others.

 

i've been directing and editing for 7 years now, and it IS extremely difficult at times to distance yourself from your knowledge. although it was arguably SW that spurred me into becoming a filmmaker, i have never considered GL a particularly competent director, but more of a master businessman and technical pioneer. i wasn't thrilled with TPM but thought it was actually better than the scrappy AOTC. it is very clear to me that these opinions come more from being a SW fan than a filmmmaker. i simply feel GL has completely cheapened the impact of what he created, and is laughing in a lot of people's faces with his iron-fisted 'behind-the-scenes' clips. i truly feel that GL cannot improve as a writer/director until he is prepared to listen, and to some extent, compromise, because like it or not, it is those things that resulted in the original trilogy.

 

I disagree completely. Number one, is the Tusken slaughter scene. I would have done the same thing and so would you. the whole purpose of that scene is to show that Anakin is more human than the other jedi because he had a mother and is emotional. He can hate as well as love. Are you saying that if you found your mother beaten, starved and possible raped at the hands of trash that you would not kill them. Only a monk like Obi-Wan or Yoda could turn the other cheek in that instance. Anakin is normal like you or I and it is this trait that the Emporer will use to further seduce him. I'm not saying it is right what he did, but it was normal behavior just as bombing Al-Kieda after the Trade Center is normal but not moral. Life is full of normal things that are not moral like sex, war and capitalism. This is why jedi are taken at birth and void of these normal emotions. Second, Women like a man that can fight and protect them. They like a real arse kicker and I'm sure the tusken slaughter scene really made Padme's juices flow.
The only errors in the script, were actualy caused by the problems in TPM. For instance, Dooku was just inserted into the movie and it is unfortunate that a charismatic character like that was not in TPM. He was forced on the audience with nothing but a red sword and black cape for developement. The solution would have been to have Dooku on the counsil in TPM, or perhaps some dialouge between him and Qui-Gon. Other than that, the movie rocked and death to the Tuskens like death to Al-Kieda. "They are animals, and I hate them!"

 

Or at least Dooku could have attended Qui-Gon?s funeral?

 

i think anakin's return from the tusken slaughter was one of the only decent scenes and in that much i agree with you (i don't actually remember questioning this scene in the first place???). on the issue of dooku, i wouldn't rush in blaming TPM. if anything, maul had far more charisma on a purely combative level. dooku was shoehorned in, as you say, but i find his age and his (lee's) familiarity very counter-productive to the role of a bad ass. i thought he stank.

 

Great post. Great thread. I'm glad I'm not the only screenwriter around here. I often find myself watching the script, as opposed to the movie, when I am watching anything. I agree with many things you say, and yes, AOTC could have been written differently. In fact, it could perhaps have been written better. Personally though, I feel that Return of the Jedi is the weakest of all of the Star Wars movies, especially in the writing department. AOTC, I think right now, is among the best.

Character Development
You're right, Obi-Wan doesn't do much developing during the course of this film. He is, however, a very well rounded character, who is charming, funny, tough, and intelligent, and I don't really feel that he needed to develop. Overall, over the six episodes, he develops. That may be enough. Han Solo doesn't develop at all in Jedi, and all he does in Empire is fall in love with Leia.
Anakin's decision to go to Tatooine is, I think, meant to mirror Luke's decision to leave Dagobah and go to cloud city. They both have a "nightmare"-ish vision, and they both - despite lots of good reasons not to - follow in the direction their nightmare's dictate. Could this mirroring have been made stronger, more dramatic? Probably. I think it is quite good as is, however.
Why does "nothing" happen on Naboo? Because, the only character who really wants Padme dead is the Viceroy from the Trade Federation. Palpatine just wants her out of the way so that he can make his secret army legal. This is why he suggests Jedi protection for her, and it's why no bounty hunter follows them logically to Naboo. Could this have been made more clear somehow in the script? Yeah, sure. But it works the way it is.
Love is Tough
Love is a tough thing to write, I agree. I don't agree, however, when you say "our two young lovers just say everything they feel." Yes, such statements of feeling are a no-no to good writing, but both characters don't make them. Only Anakin comes right out and says what he feels, and he does it ALWAYS, no matter who he is talking to. This is his character. It is his inability to mask his emotions that is a huge part in his story. Does it sound like bad dialogue? I guess it can. But I don't think it can really be changed. That is how Anakin talks. That is who he is. Padme never comes out and says what she is feeling, until the very end. She hides her emotions. She hints at them "It makes me feel uncomfortable, I don't like this idea of hiding," etc. but these aren't really how she feels. She is a politician. She ignores her true feelings for the greater goals of her career. That is, she does so until she feels it is too late. And then she does what he does, because whether it works or not, it's what he does and she loves him. And it's too late to be rational. "Before we die, I just wanted you to know." After this, it's too late to go back on it. They both know how they feel, and though they hide it from everyone else, they can't hide it from themselves any more. (Actually, I think it's really interesting that Anakin never, not once, says he loves her.) But why does she love him? This is a harder question (one which was answered more in the script, before certain scenes in the movie were cut out) but one which, I think, can still be answered within the context of the film. Why do they go to Naboo? "this is my home, I know it very well." Yeah she does. She knows it is the one planet Anakin has ever been to that he found welcoming, that he found success on, other than his own. (It would be nice if the audience knew this as well.) She knows it is beautiful, and she knows she will be comfortable there. If we accept that she loves him, it makes a little bit of sense that she would take him to her home planet. During the confession scene on Tatooine, Padme doesn't "just stand there." As Anakin starts to reveal what he did, and the emperor's theme plays in the backround, she is shocked. She even looks a bit scared. She responds like her character responds to everything: she tries

 

Excellent post, Rhane. I agree that Lucas did a great job with Obi-Wan's quest. We were really with him as he uncovered this mystery, which is why the audience only discovered the clones when he did, and why Dooku wasn't seen in the film until Obi-Wan spied on him.
The only real weaknesses in the film on a scriptwriting level, IMO, are some aspects of the love story (I liked the picnic scene and everything after they arrived on Tatooine) and the fact that Obi-Wan and Anakin don't really seem to be close friends. It was important to show that Obi-Wan's overly strict teaching helped drive Anakin to the dark side, of course, but I think the "my very young padawan" lines were a bit condescending.
Other than that, Lucas and Hales did a great job crafting the story and characters. That's my opinion both as a fan and a screenwriter.

 

Duckman, above, points out:

...the average moviegoer wouldn't care or even notice [the way the film is put together]

In fact, though, I think that the "average moviegoer" is trending more knowledgeable of the filmmaking process. Blame it on the DVD revolution, the proliferation of cable channels providing behind-the-scenes information, or even on the digital revolution that's made filmmakers of us all: the average moviegoer is a smarter consumer than in the past. That doesn't mean we're necessarily critics. Critics go into a movie largely with a negative mindset and then are surprised when a film is good. Filmgoers attend a movie hoping it will be good and are surprised when it's bad. Indeed, filmgoers (or, even more extremely, fans) are actually inspired enough by movies to think creatively about films and analyze (not necessarily critique) them with greater skill than was available to previous generations of "average moviegoers".

 

after reading darth lascivous's post, i can't help but have great interest in his/her writing.
being a writer myself, i'm not much of a critic, but dl makes very good points, and most of them point to him being a pretty good writer.
i would never rewrite someone else's story, simply because i hardly have time to finish my own.
he brought up some of my biggest issues/complaints about the story, my main complaint being that he never even tried to fulfill his promise from tpm, "one day i'll come back and free all the slaves" instead, this went completely ignored, and he kept complaining about how he had to do his duty, while never actually obeying. then he comes back to save his mother because of some nightmares.

overall, i think the entire pt would have been better had it all been written before any filming was started, so that dooku could have his place in all three, and sifo-dyas could make sense, and everything could just fit into place.

 

"the entire pt would have been better had it all been written before any filming was started, so that dooku could have his place in all three, and sifo-dyas could make sense, and everything could just fit into place."

Just imagine if you'd left the cinema before the last half hour of 'The Sixth Sense', or any film for that matter.

It WILL all make sense, gloriously so.

The line which dictates the nature of Anakin's descent and his eventual, tragic failure is one which people seem to have - in the main - missed. It's spoken about halfway through the film and is the key to episode 3. It's all there in one short line.

Propp

 

In DarthLascivious' original post, a complaint is raised against motivationless heroes. In particular, objection is made to Padmé:

Padme wants to be a good Senator, but is forced to hide for most of the film. [She] seems to show much pain at not being able to do what [she] WANT to do, and [doesn't do] very much about it.

DL's frustration here comes from not stepping back and looking at the series as a whole. To some extent, of course, each film should work on its own. But if you deny Lucas the ability to develop themes and characters across the whole of the series, then you're missing out on what he's up to. I was always disappointed that Lucas calls his films "episodes", because it's obvious he really means "chapters". Viewed in this light we can find her motivation quite easily, in Episode I, and we can find satisfactory thematic references in the OT. Padmé's motivation has been there from the start: I will not condone a course of action that will lead us to war. We know she's wrong about that (her every action leads us to war). Nevertheless, her basic motivation is to try to avoid war through negotiation. At the core of her belief system is that expressed by Joan Allen's character in The Contender: she worships in the temple of democracy. This is why she stands in defense of the Republic, why she leads the opposition to the creation of an army, why she's reluctant to leave her planet when it comes under attack. It explains why talk of democracy would enter into what is otherwise a romantic picnic. It also explains why she fights when she does. She'll do everything she can to avoid war, but when the institution of democracy itself (as expressed by the laws of the Republic) is threatened, she'll do what is necessary to defend it. Like Woodrow Wilson, she's a pacifist-until-pressed. Like Woodrow Wilson, she's hugely popular and influential following her victories, but ultimately defeated politically by the very stance that made her so popular. Indeed, like Woodrow Wilson, she's partly responsible for an even greater war that follows the ones she fought.

She is, in other words, the perfect complement to her daughter. While both share similar goals, they attack them from opposite sides. Both believe politics and diplomacy are the ultimate answer to war. But where Amidala sees politics as the end, Leia sees it as the means. For her diplomacy truly is, as Vader points out, a bluff. She's a war leader, even before the Republic has fully fallen. Politics allows her to be a spy. Amidala is thrust into violence reluctantly; Leia joins the fight enthusiastically. And, while we'll have to wait to see how Episode III develops this further, I believe at this point that it's more than just a difference in the times they find themselves in. There's an acual orientational difference in their respective motivations. Whatever happens in EIII, though, it's not at all fair to say Padmé is motivationless.

As for her not being allowed to do what she wants to do, and not doing much about it, I really begin to wonder whether you saw the same film I did. She's "doing much about it" throughout the film. If her central issue is being forced to hide and sit on the sidelines, virtually every action she takes moves her away from that problem. She makes it easy for Anakin to desert her by going with him to Tatooine. She basically kidnaps Anakin and takes him to Geonosis. She escapes the droid factory. She (I think implausibly) is the first one out of her shackles in the Arena. She slips Dooku's grasp with the help of Yoda's clone army. She orders troops around to help cement a temporary victory. Whether through her own action, or by taking advantage of the help of others, she's always moving forward, always escaping. By the end of the film, she's gathered enough first hand knowledge of the potential threat of a Republic Army to become an even more effective opponent. While we don't know how this will eventually pla

 

I still think Empire blows AOTC out of the water artistically. Not just in the script writing department, but also in directing. Seeing Lando with Vader's shoulder taking up half the screen is so representative of the situation at that time reminds me of a shot from "The Seventh Seal". The movie starts with a search and ends in a search. Luke is attacked by a giant creature in white at the beginning and then a creature in black at the end to see how much he's learned and/or grown. Foreshadowing inside the asteroid in the way it's written and phototgraphed to show that Cloud City is a hidden danger. Montage with Han & Leia splitting from their kiss and then cutting to a star destroyer getting smashed by an asteroid (I think-maybe not). I just don't see these type of things in AOTC.
I saw more of this stuff in TPM. The editing during the Palpatine and Amidala scene where everytime Palpatine walks in front of the camera there's a cut, to show that Palpatine is crossing Amidala, the same thing happens again when Qui-Gon says he'll train Anakin, Obi-Wan gets crossed by Qui-Gon in the editing. The shadow of Palpatine on the landing platform where he's waiting.

Are you forgetting the pan UP in AOTC? The use of Anakin's shadow to look like Vader? The entire nod to 'the searchers'? The documentry-style battle shooting during Geonosis? The entire 'sub' sequence in the asteroid field (much better than ESB's standard chase sequence)? I really think many here look at ESB through rose-colored glasses. Yes it is a good film, but it is not quite the thing people often think it to be. There are far more artistic things at work in AOTC, while ESB is far more a standard, though atypical (for its time) action-fantasy movie.

 

Zeekveerko says

...my main complaint being that he never even tried to fulfill his promise from tpm, "one day i'll come back and free all the slaves"

but of course we know that the promise is fulfilled by Vader, who introduces (at least a form of) servitude to the whole galaxy. At this point, I think it's more irony than prophecy. Indeed, there was no way this line could ever have been meant to be more than ironic harbinger, because, as a Jedi, he would've had no jurisdiction outside the Republic, nor would his training have allowed it on a Republic world. It's just there to show where Anakin's heart begins, so that we can better appreciate just how far he falls.

 

The documentary style of the battle doesn't have much to do with the writing...

one of the problems, I think, stems from how you're viewing these movies. Watching them as standalones (which invariably I think we tend to do) there are some plots which don't seem to come to fruition. I assume that they will be resolved by the time Episode III ends -- however, are 2+ movies of dramatic storylines meandering around totally redeemed by the final bits of EpIII? Food for thought.

One minor comment about Padme: she is essentially Mother Teresa. The girl just NEVER does anything wrong in the slighest. Even Leia was stuck up at times -- I think Padme in AOTC was DESPERATELY in need of a bit more conflict to bite into as a character. She essentially is passive all the way through.

 

Guys, as interesting as all of this is,
nobody goes down to the theatre and plunks down $ 7.50 to watch a script. Movies are a visual and emotional experience, not a literary one. All of this stuff is fun to contemplate, but the bottom line is that George is great at the visuals and that's why STAR WARS is a success. He has vision.

 

don't get me wrong, propp, i love the movies, but if they had all been written together we might have seen dooku in the phantom menace, and perhaps sifo-dyas as well. and what happened to poof, the balloon head guy?

and siting the sixth sense is lost because that entire movie was written before it was shot.

 

Guys, as interesting as all of this is,
nobody goes down to the theatre and plunks down $ 7.50 to watch a script. Movies are a visual and emotional experience, not a literary one.

No, of course not. But we're not trying to create a literary experience here -- we're examining how to adjust the script -- the blueprint, if you will -- to make it tighter and more satisfying overall.

It's an academic exercise, of course, but most of the discussion here has been in real-world filmmaking terms, not about how literary you can get.

 

Hi all. LONG time lurker, first time poster (in this thread anyway, which I have been keeping track of.) I've posted a bit last week. I hope the writer's thread is especially kind to Forum younglings.


To start off with, good call, Gonk. Someone last week (I forget how far back) was lamenting AOTC's lack of foreshadowing. BS, say I. I have seen AOTC 5 times now and every time I do, I see a little bit more. When I watch the films now, I am thinking in terms of future generations, who will not be seeing the Saga the way we have been able to see it, piecemeal as it is constructed, but as a linearly flowing whole. More on this in a minute.
Some things regarding foreshadowing and/or symbolism that I was able to pick up the very first time (but this of course as a fan):

--When Anakin falls downwards through the Coruscant traffic, he appears to be falling towards something at the bttom that looks very mletn and very hot. We know it isn't lava, but it could very well end up foreshadowing it.

--A few minutes later, they fly over Palpy's stronghold in the industrial end of Coruscant, with fumes belching that suggest both the flames of hell, the military.industrail complex, and the carbonite room in Empire. Or all.

--The whole Droid factory scene is pure brilliance. There is something very Tolkienien about it. First, 3PO's comment on machines making machines. (The droid on the refugee ship telling a fellow droid to get out, "we don't serve droids here" is a telling phrase.)Second, Anakin's arm getting bolted to a converyor belt suggesting both what he will become, and a graphic and powerful symbol of the whole spiritual void left by the wake of madern life. Third, the parableic contrast between the worlds of TPM (the child, Anakin, spends years lovingly handcrafting droids and machines that bear his own personal touch, which is the way things are done in the Old Republic/vs. the adult Anakin (Vader)willingly participating in a stystem in which millions of impersonal models are spit out from giant corporately controlled factories like widgets--this is a brilliant and powerful illustration of the spiritual depletion odf meodern life. (It;s also a nod to Chaplin "Modern Times" getting caught in the Big Ben cog.) You get the full sense of the opppression and soul-deadening quality of Paly's regime ehre (and maybe a swipe at globalization as well.) Anakin ANd the droids grow up--and I don't like what we see.

--Anakin walks out of the building we know as Luke's garage, stares at the Binary Sunset, and then zooms off. Luke goes to stand later on in that very spot. Both men stare out into their destiny (with the EXACT SAME music), but one's life goes downhill after that; theother's expands and swells.

--Yoda's hard stare at Palpy as he suggests that the threat really IS that serious.

--the way sin which the camera pans to the left (the good guy's traditional pan) vs the right toleft (the bad guys.) How this is reversed, and inversed.

--The shadows on the wall of the garage, being like the shsowns on the wall from GWTW.

--a camera technique I always loved more than any other: it is first noticably used in GWTW (that I know of). WHen starting a scene, the camera moves in closer, so that 2 bits of furiniture or walls or whatever vanish at front left and right. I love this when it is used in GWTW< just after the "Sherman" pastiche after the intermission ends, and to the accompanyment of that score, the camera moves in on the women picking cotton in the field. I LOVE how this was used in the Senate scene; we see the Act by which Palpy took power.

--the fairy tale quality of the beginning of the Arena sequence. You coukd have just had Ani and Ami walk into the arena at blaster point (or spear point, given that this IS the Lyme Disease Planet, as i call it.) But no, they have to be drawn in on what can only be dewcribed as a tumbril. That whole bit was just like the end of "A Tale Of Two Cities" when the young couple kiss and have that tear-jerking conversation and are led to their execution on the guillotine i