AOTC is a phantom movie: Why some people don't like it.

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Storm5, May 19, 2002.

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  1. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    Crack, Tarkin doesn't know about Obi Wan OR Yoda. Luke jumping caught Vader by surprise. Using 'Force grab' obviously takes concentration.

    It's funny how the so called "naysayers" know more about the films than some of the gushers. Perhaps that is why we were so disappointed with AOTC, and you weren't.

    The fact that Anakin's mother was left on Tatooine as a FREAKIN' SLAVE is a MAJOR plothole. There is no getting around that - an idiot could tell you that having a mother who is a freakin' slave on a desert planet with a chip in her head that could blow up at any time would be the WORST thing to do when you are trying to make someone FORGET about their attachments.

    As for the original post, if you bothered to take the time to read negative reviews instead of preforming your own opinion, you would see that most of us who are complaining understand the plot quite well. Most of us are not enamored enough with video game sequences to excuse the shoddy cutting (that I explained in detail), lackluster characterization, or lack of attention to develop the freakin' villain (Lucas cut out pivotal Dooku development scenes in favor of a Mega Man 3 sequence!?).

    If you notice, most of the peopel who love it are liking the broad story or seeing Yoda swinging a lightsaber around. Those disappointed are complaining about the little touches that made the OT so great.
  2. AG_LT_Redman Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    Hey how the hell would marf tarkin no if vader and the emporer didnt think about it! Its not a plot hole it just makes the stroy better! And when ur joining the darkside u have to become corrupted and disited thats the whole point of the darkside why dont u learn about something before u talk about it and u will see why anakin joins the darkside its not 100% will
  3. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    The Shimi thing is something that should be explained in Ep.3. Sorry, for now it's a mystery, but a mystery we can start to deduce from the information we have out of 5 movies. We can deduce that there was more than meets the eye here. We know that Palpy has already started to manipulate Anakin toward his fate. From his "counsel" to his manipulating getting Anakin and Padme together. We know from ESB that the Sith use the suffering of loved ones to draw out Jedi. From Lars' statement, it's rare for a Tusken Raider to keep their captives alive for so long. Right now, we know just a little bit more than Anakin does. We know that the Tusken Raiders captured and killed his mother. If Anakin had not given in to hate, he might have found out why.

    I wonder how many fans will consider the Death Star as a plot hole since theoretically won't be revealed until Episode 4?
  4. CountBakufu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2001
    star 2
    You know what kind of SW fans hate this movie?
    The kind that have deluded themselves into thinking they have some involvement in the film production process.


    lol...I know what you mean, they should get a pen, paper and a camera and go at it. There is a Fan Film board at TF.N.
    A few of the films aren't too bad but most of them are ridiculously funny.

  5. Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 1999
    star 6
    The fact that Anakin's mother was left on Tatooine as a FREAKIN' SLAVE is a MAJOR plothole. There is no getting around that - an idiot could tell you that having a mother who is a freakin' slave on a desert planet with a chip in her head that could blow up at any time would be the WORST thing to do when you are trying to make someone FORGET about their attachments.

    Its a chip that only explodes if you try to escape, I don't think Shmi was going to doing any escaping. And it did seem to work pretty well. There's no indication that Anakin had any strong feelings about his mother until the dreams started. Until that point, he probably looked at her just living her life as normal, let's face it, she didn't have that bad of a deal when she was with Watto, she wasn't in any danger. Its only when she was captured that he started having dreams of her being in pain.

    There is no polt hole there. Do you think the Jedi would have let Anakin leave? No, he's in his Jedi training, and as part of that, he leaves everythig behind, they're not going to let him go and risk his life, for a personal matter. It shows this when Padme falls out of the gunship. Anakin wants to save her, Obi-Wan tells him to leave her, to not let his personal feelings get in the way of doing his duty for the Jedi.
  6. darthleefox Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    how can you call lucas a poor director, if you are a star wars fan i mean the orginal trilogy must mean something to you, At the end of the day its got to be said lucas isnt making this film to please fans he`s making it to appeal to young kids who get to experience star wars, i absolutly love aotc ive decided it goes top of my ever changing all time star wars list, the problem is the fans want solo, luke, and are not prepared to accept anythink else, the ot had plot holes but as fans we fill them in with our imagination, in the past 3 years aotc is the best film ive seen at the cinema and i didnt feel short changed when leaving like you often do at the cinema, star wars isnt meant to be serious politics its meant to be escapism in 2 hours 2o minutes you get to visit a galaxy far far away in a battle of good -vs- evil its escapism of the best kind, and for the first time in my life the audience clapped the end credits. People who dont enjoy thje film are people that simply know to much about star wars and are not prepared to adjust or change there opinions. I avoided typing in star wars on the net for 3 years just to remain spoiler 3 and i have to say aotc was well worth it, it will be loved by the majority of fans adventualy in my opinion, so what about cheesy acting, plot holes enjoy the ride for what it is or dont get on it, its not shakespheare just good fun plsain escapism and lucas succeds in this.
  7. Draculas_guest Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2001
    star 2
    "how can you call lucas a poor director, if you are a star wars fan i mean the orginal trilogy must mean something to you, "

    But Lucas only directed ANH originally, and that was just over 25 years ago, he was a different person back then. He had made some interesting films with American Graffiti and THX-1138 (and apparently came up with the idea for Apocalypes Now), as well as developing Indiana Jones.

    Now however, he's Mr Star Wars, who sits out in his ranch sipping hot chocolate from his C3P0 mug while wearing his chewbacca slippers. I still like him, but even Mark Hamill said he needs to be rescued from his ranch
  8. Sapno Krei Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 1999
    star 3
    Now that I've had some time to reflect on AOTC, I can see why so many critics don't like the film (I myself rank it just behind ESB).

    Though George denies it, AOTC is a film for the fans. It's got a lot of action, sly references to past films, and great heroic moments from characters we already know. The plot itself is outwardly weak, but tell that to any fan, and he'd go on about the complex deceptions going on just beneath the surface. Critics, not to mention the general public out looking for a good time on a Saturday night, don't want to invest the mind power to try to tease apart the mysteries introduced in the film.

    Too many people have invested their lives into enjoying the series to be served up a story which can be explained away in 2 sentences. I'm glad GL made the plot of these prequels so labyrinthine that you need a map to navigate it.

    The acting and dialogue are as cheesy as they have ever been. To many of us, that's part of SW's simple charm. Kids, no doubt, have no hard time swallowing such lines as "I hate the sand...It's coarse and rough...and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything's soft...and smooth."

    Personally, I'm boggled by the criticisms. The movie *is* the fifth in the series so far. If critics are wondering why there is little new or original, maybe they should realize that IT'S THE FIFTH FRICKIN' MOVIE!

    So, George may have alienated a considerable segment of his audience in an effort to regain the trust of people whom he lost with TPM. The big question is whether he will get the elements into "proper" balance with Episode III and create a movie that everyone will like, or whether he will keep the film going in its current path, movie critics be darned...

    More power to you, George...
  9. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    "Its a chip that only explodes if you try to escape, I don't think Shmi was going to doing any escaping. And it did seem to work pretty well. There's no indication that Anakin had any strong feelings about his mother until the dreams started. Until that point, he probably looked at her just living her life as normal, let's face it, she didn't have that bad of a deal when she was with Watto, she wasn't in any danger. Its only when she was captured that he started having dreams of her being in pain.

    There is no polt hole there. Do you think the Jedi would have let Anakin leave? No, he's in his Jedi training, and as part of that, he leaves everythig behind, they're not going to let him go and risk his life, for a personal matter. It shows this when Padme falls out of the gunship. Anakin wants to save her, Obi-Wan tells him to leave her, to not let his personal feelings get in the way of doing his duty for the Jedi."

    Yeah, it's really plausable that the people of Naboo, whom Anakin SAVED, wouldn't pay for her freedom, ESPECIALLY since Padme knew of her plight. Or the Jedi council - they wouldn't pay for her freedom, just to give Anakin peace of mind?

    Give me a break!

    What do you mean he wasn't thinking about her?! It was CLEARLY established in Episode 1 that Anakin was against slavery, and wanted his mother to be freed, including having dreams of "coming back to free the slaves."

    I like how people convieniently forget parts of the plot in order to justify plotholes.
  10. Ewan-Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 2000
    star 6
    "The fact that Anakin's mother was left on Tatooine as a FREAKIN' SLAVE is a MAJOR plothole. There is no getting around that - an idiot could tell you that having a mother who is a freakin' slave on a desert planet with a chip in her head that could blow up at any time would be the WORST thing to do when you are trying to make someone FORGET about their attachments."

    Besides the fact that they weren't free, Anakin and Shmi did not live a bad life as slaves. In cut dialogue in ep2 he even refers to them being happy. She was not a master of her destiny obviously, but she didn't have it bad like slaves have in our own past.

    Why didn't he go back? He had one choice or the other. That makes it interesting. Not saying, 'Oh gee, I don't know if I like that'
    Anakin had the choice in TPM of what to do. Scream plotholes like bloody murder because she wasn't freed, but it made it a better movie.
    He had to choose to move on with his life. He had no future on Tatooine, Shmi understood this.

    What'd be the point if he chose to leave all he knew to become a Jedi only to come right back or have her just be free from the begining? "My future's here." "Attachments are forbidden."

    And is it really a plot hole that she's still alive? Just because it doesn't make sense to *you* does not make it a plot hole.
    She could have been alive for any number of reasons. A hostage of some sort maybe, someone to torture because they're pissed off, or maybe they simply wanted to break her spirit. In any case, she was nearly dead by the time he got their anyways, but didn't feel the need to hold on any longer when he arrived.
    "Now I am complete."

    I really am sick of bashers.

    Like they're so used to worshipping the OT because they grew up with it and have their own preconcieved notions (most from EU backstories) of how it should be. I grew up with the OT on video. Nothing else. No background stuff, no EU. And I think things are going just great.
    Yes, it is different because you saw the OT so long ago when you were kids. Don't give me that crap about everyone loved the films back then because they 'understood' the saga.

    People loved ANH first for the light sabers and all the realistic ship battles. The origanal movies got to play out without people complaining because there were other movies that came before it or everything wasn't explained.

    TPM was widely loved and accepted. The numbers don't lie. People saw it over and over because they loved it. Some did not, that's there right. Same with AOTC. Most love it, some don't. That doesn't mean it's 'wrong' because *you* personally didn't like it.
  11. DarthTyler Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    AOTC is very cliche. Everything is so contrived. (I realize there are extreme limits so everything can fit into the OT.)

    ESB portrays a budding attraction much more convincingly in much less time. (Much less time.)

    I expected SO much out of this movie. Many people have posted that AOTC makes TPM a better movie. All I can say is that AOTC, TPM, and ROTJ make ANH and ESB better movies.

    George should not direct Episode III. He should also allow someone with the ability to write dialouge to help as well.
  12. Sapno Krei Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 1999
    star 3
    In response to the supposed "why didn't anyone rescue Shmi before?" plothole:

    Recall this carefully placed piece of dialogue in TPM: "My place is here. My future is here."

    It sounds pretty strange that a person would consider her calling to remain a slave, isn't it?

    I think that Shmi felt responsible for her situation. She lost herself and her son because of gambling. Therefore, it was a matter of pride for her that she pay for her stupid actions and remain where she was. The only person who could save her was her son. Freedom granted from any outside party would just not be right.

    This sort of thing happens in our world. How many relatives do you know who would rather remain poor and sad rather than take charity, even if people are willing to donate? Plenty.

    Anakin was aware of this pride, and that's why he made it his duty to eventually come back and save his mother. His Jedi training and it's commitments, of course, slowed him down.
  13. vansmak Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 1
    Was there a time given as to when Clegg Lars bought her, and freed her? How do we know that by the time Anakin had gotten to a point where he wanted to free her, she was already free?

    And as to the question as to why the Sandpeople kept Shmi alive, we may find out in episode 3, but my answer is so she could die in Anakin's arms.

    This is a movie, sometimes there are little plot contrivances like that to build up to emotional scenes.

    It's the same answer as to why the stormtroopers always miss Luke, Leia, Han & Chewie. Does the movie have to go ahead and take time to explain that the stormtroopers are bad shots because because they are faulty clones, or they are too short, or whatever, or can we just say that we know they can't hit them, because there would be no movies.

    You have to have a little faith. Everything can't be explained down to the last detail in the movie.

    -smak-
  14. The Flying Dutchman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2000
    star 4
    In Holland we've got a name for trying to seek errors in a movie in an extreme way: hair splitting...

    I sure there are thing unexplained in SW, but not everything can be explaned in A movie, Hell not even in realy life so what is your problem?!
  15. LordElendil Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    I liked it. I thought it was tight. I am OldSchool, I liked the Classic Trilogy, then the expanded universe until they put too many stories into it. It became a lot like startrek, a plot a week kind of thing. I hated TPM, thought the kid was lame, JarJar was lame, the battles were dumbed down, the jedi acted lamely, and generally had low expectations for this one.

    Happily, episode 2 blew me away. Great battles, Anakin gets put in his place several times, Obi-Wan is cool, Dooku is great except for his name, and the love story is acceptable. Sure, it wasn't ESB. But it was fun and good and it rekindled my fandom. WOo hoo STAR WARS yeah!
  16. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    EwanKenobi,

    First of all, find any place where I said Anakin should have gone back for her before you decide to argue things that I did not say. Talk about "preconcieved notions."

    "TPM was widely loved and accepted. The numbers don't lie. People saw it over and over because they loved it. Some did not, that's there right. Same with AOTC. Most love it, some don't. That doesn't mean it's 'wrong' because *you* personally didn't like it."

    In case you didn't realize it, the general population is stupid. Armageddon also made oodles of money, and that was an artistic nightmare. TPM had redeeming moments, but the repeat box office for that was based STRICTLY on nostalgia. I and many others were so happy to see lightsabers swinging around that we would go back to see it again and again. When the novelty wore off, TPM quickly fell below the rest of the saga in even the general public's eyes.

    It's very likely that AOTC will have the same problems. Some people still, for whatever reason, are so happily tied up in nostalgia (as made obvious by what they LIKED about the movie), that they excuse and justify all of the flaws just because of the broad story being told, or Yoda swinging a lightsaber around. The difference between this and TPM on first viewing is that a lot of people's nostalgia has already worn off, and KEWLLIGHTSABERACTION doesn't fool us anymore, especially when it isn't even choreographed as intricately as the lightsaber battle in Jedi.

    Watch the reactions in a month. With the intitial "wow" factor gone, many opinions will change on the movie.
  17. son_of_the_tear Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    First, The Jedi cannot go to a planet in which the Republic has no control or say and free slaves.

    Qui Gon made it quite clear he is not there to free slaves.

    Padme thought slavery was illegal, but is told that Tantooine does not operate under the republic.

    Second, Watto was not going to sell her out of pride. Qui Gon tried to buy Shimi her freedom, but Watto would not have it. He simply would not. And after his losses, he could have gotten back on his feet if he let Qui Gon buy her freedom. He chose not to.

    It wasn't until much, much later that he sold her, because as we see, he hit rock bottom.

    Jedi cannot go to another planet that does not operate under the Republic and start freeing slaves. They are keepers of the peace, not soldiers, not cops.

    Qui Gon tried, he couldn't.
  18. MoonMan080 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 3
    Watch the reactions in a month. With the intitial "wow" factor gone, many opinions will change on the movie.


    I'm sure thats EXACTLY what you WANT to see...
  19. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    They dont like it because they are ignorant or dont understand the stories. I feel sorry for them. I like Star Wars and it's their loss that they don't.
  20. son_of_the_tear Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    In a month our reactions will change?

    Christ, why the hell is your problem?

    Does it really bother you that much that we love this movie?

    Man, get a a damn clue.

    You didn't like it? Fine. No one is forcing you to.

  21. Sapno Krei Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 1999
    star 3
    "Watch the reactions in a month. With the intitial "wow" factor gone, many opinions will change on the movie."

    That's what people said in 1999. "Don't like TPM now? See it again and again until you *do* like it!" I was let down by TPM the first time I saw it, and the film got "better" with subsequent viewings during the first few weeks. And a month later, I had convinced myself that the movie was great. By the time it was out on video, that initial reaction -- that the film was disappointing -- had returned.

    I had a great first impression of AOTC, and I think that that impression will remain with me long after the excitement over the film has faded.
  22. VladTheImpaler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2000
    star 4
    I can accept that it took 10 years for Anakin to go back to free Shmi.

    After all, why did it take Han so long to pay back Jabba? He had three or four years between ANH and ESB...then all of a sudden "oh I gotta go now"?

    If you want to be nitpicky and hold Star Wars to real life, then this makes no sense. He could have paid back Jabba years before, and still joined back up with the Rebellion. But you have to give the movies some artistic leeway...so what if nothing happens for years at a time, and then all of a sudden every major galactic/character event occurs in a two-hour time span? It's a movie, accept it or stop watching.
  23. Sapno Krei Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 1999
    star 3
    I don't always agree with the guy, let alone find any of his opinions quote-worthy, but this statement by Harry Knowles pretty much sums it up for me:

    "...sure there are those out there that were disappointed or hated this film, but ya know what? It must suck to be you, because I saw STAR WARS: ATTACK OF THE CLONES and I can?t wait to see it again."
  24. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    Sapno, Harry's statement means nothing. Replace "ATOC" with "Battlefield Earth," and the same point is made, which is "Well, I liked the movie, so there!."

    If you want to use quotes how about:

    "AOTC is the Armageddon of Star Wars movies. Put enough big explosions and CG graphics in a movie (not to mention a typical nostalgia-induced crowd pleasing sequence at the end), and the audiences will eat it up. Meanwhile, those that enjoy art, even the simple but effective artistry of the original trilogy which focused on human emotions and themes, will wonder what went wrong."
  25. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    LOL, my impressions of the original films back in the day was that they had state of the art special effects, aliens and environments. The actors have always come second.
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