AOTC is a phantom movie: Why some people don't like it.

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Storm5, May 19, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4

    Someone please explain this.

    Why do the Jedi would not suspect some thing is afoul when the clones being used for the Republic army were made using Jango Fett, who the Jedi know tried to assasinate Padme and kill Obi Wan (several times!!). That alone should have alerted them to some double-dealing or evil lurking. Then they find out the clones were ordered by Sifo-Dyas, a dead jedi, who the Kaminoans think is the Master of all Jedi. Clearly a lie. And let's not forget that the Sith are also present still. And just happpen to re-appear around the same time Sio-Dyas was killed.

    Then on top of all this, the Clones are now ready at the same time that Count Dooku and his CIS just happen to be ready to fight a war with all of their newly-made droids. And it just happens to be the same time as a vote is taking place for a Military Creation Act.

    It is also known that Dooku was using the dark side while he was still in the order. AND it's also known that the source of the clones, Kamino, was removed by "someone" from the Jedi archives.

    All of this makes it very obvious that there is some grand scheme going on. The Jedi should have figured this out easily. Obi Wan sees the clones for himself and fights Jango. And now he suspects nothing when the clones just happen to be ready for the Jedi to take?? And not to mention that Dooku tells him that the Republic is being run by Dark lords of the Sith (now I would not expect Obi Wan to take Dooku at his word, but once you see in the gladiator arena "VIP" box, Jango--clone template and Dooku, droid leader, standing together, it should be clear that someone is playing both sides.)

    I had all these questions before seeing the movie and was hoping that the film would resolve this. The Jedi not need to use their force snesitivity to know what it is going on. They just need common sense. I just don't see why Yoda would ever use the clones or at least know that someone in the Republic created them 10 years in advance specifically for this war, which would mean that it's all phony. Everyone is in on it except the Jedi.

    2) Why is Shmi kept alive for the Tuskens for a month? How does she live? Was she fed and given water? How is it that hse happens to die at the exact moment Anakin rolls in?
  2. lono Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 1
    "So to the lovers of AOTC stop bashing us"

    Sigh...
    You're getting bashed because you're telling people what to do. You post an unpopular opinion and then complain and complain and complain when people bash you. If you think someone has stepped over the line, contact a mod. If not, then you're just going to have to learn to take it.


    I've seen thicker skin on a bowl of pudding.

    Lono
  3. AmeiaSkywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2001
    star 3
    Maybe there were some plot-holes, but isn't SW sort of a mystery.
    I don't think we'll find out everything we could possibly know about TPM or AOTC in Ep. 3. I think more things will make sense however.
    Some of the people I've talked to don't like it because they think the whole dialogue/love thing with Anakin and Padme is cheesy. But think about the old trilogy.
    The whole Han/Leia/Luke is rather cheesy even though I love it.
    Even Han and Leia's dialogue could be thought of a goofy.
    " I love you"
    " I know"
    Of course they know. :D
    And what is with them calling each other names like they're children or something?
    I'm not saying anything bad about the OT in any way.
    Just think about it.


  4. DarthMalifluous Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2002
    star 2
    It's not that the movie is bad! It's more the fact that George, unlike any other person in movie making history, has the unlimited resources to make an truely spectacular film and he chooses to make a sometimes brilliant film surrounded by some the most mundane, ill-conceived scenes and missplaced dialogue in a Star Wars film (i.e. "I'm sorry your Majesty. I failed you!"... and this is one of the first lines uttered. How did Corday fail Amidala? Isn't that her job? To be her decoy and die for her?). Above all other Star Wars films, this one had the chance to elevate SW from just great B-movie status. It had a strong group of actors playing interesting roles (yes Ewan looked like he was having far more fun) but on a whole, it felt like they really weren't all that comfortable in their characters "skins".

    When you've got poor editing you lose the rhythm that is so essential to making an enjoyable film. A small example of this is Anakin's nightmare sequence; what a useless scene. It's already been established that he's not sleeping well because of nightmares by his conversation with Obi-wan in Amidala's apartments at the beginning of the movie. We then have to see this "lack of sleep scene? And then we've got to discuss is further on a balcony the next morning? There are so many little scenes like this that could have been easily excised and yet Ben Burtt chose to keep them in. Remind me cause I can't remember. Did he edit any of the other films? If he did, why does he seem so off in this one. If he didn't, I can forgive some rookie mistakes, but Star Wars films of the past have always relied on uncanny editing in order to tell an effective story, but the "beats" are all over the place on this one which leads to very little dramatic tension.

    One last thing. Why did Zam have to take pot shots at Obi-wan on the assassin-droid? We already saw that she's got a remote for the droid, why not just shut the thing off, or blow it up (it is an assassin-droid after all... now that would've been much better. Obi-wan heres the droid go into some "countdown sequence" or something; maybe not quite so blatent... and he's got to let go of the droid right before it detonates)? It's all the little choices that George has made that make up for an okay film, but not a great one IMO and it's just too bad when you begin to think what could've been.
  5. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    I'm sorry but I find it so amusing how people just suggest a change here and another there telling George how to "do the movie right" ?

    I don't mind criticism, but little things like "the assasain droid destroy mechanism" and such other non-sense just pushes it beyond laughable.

    Please.

    No offense, but if you can come up with so much greater ideas and editing capabilities, how come I haven't seen *your* movie in the theater ?
  6. DarthMalifluous Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2002
    star 2
    Actually, we're just in the pre-pro phase of 2 films and the production phase of 1.

    I'm not trying to completely bash the film. On many levels it was great, had some great moments. But when you have a 7 minute conveyer-belt sequence that could have been edited to a fraction of that, allowing for possible dramatic tension to build elsewhere in the script you lose the cohesiveness of a good story. AotC has a great story to tell, and it gets damn close. George is an editor at heart, he's stated so on many occasions. He is recognized by many to be one of the best in the industry. He knows all about pacing, and intercutting. His intuitive feel for "the board" is uncalculable. So why does this film not resonate? It squarely misses "beats" left, right, and center. George never made such mistakes in the past SW films (yes even TPM was paced well... awful story and awful acting, but that's beside the point), so why start now?
  7. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    Got to agree with AmeiaSkywalker. Heck, even the Han and Leia "flirting" was corny. To me, the Anakin and Padme love story was less cheesy than Han and Leia's.

    As for plot holes, even the OT had plotholes! Someone on some other thread pointed out many of them. As long as the big pieces fit together, then I am satisfied. Every nook and cranny does not have to be explained.
  8. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    ""So to the lovers of AOTC stop bashing us"

    Sigh...
    You're getting bashed because you're telling people what to do. You post an unpopular opinion and then complain and complain and complain when people bash you. If you think someone has stepped over the line, contact a mod. If not, then you're just going to have to learn to take it.


    I've seen thicker skin on a bowl of pudding.

    Lono"

    No, he was just bringing out how ridiculous some of you are and bringing out the irony of many of you "bashing the bashers."

    It's the gushers who are starting threads with "why I don't think people like AOTC" or "why don't people like AOTC" or "PLEASE STOP CRITICIZING GEORGE LUCAS I WORSHIP HIM!!!!" Therefore, they are more guilty of "whining" by default.
  9. funky-gonk-droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 1
    I liked the conveyer belt sequence. Any other movie would be proud to have that as their final action setpiece, but after that we get the Arena monster fight, Jedi arena battle, Clone battle, Dooku chase, Dooku vs Anakin vs Obi Wan and, gasp... Dooku vs Yoda. The editing in the final part of the movie is just awesome, it teases you, and gives the movie replay value. So I don't think it's fair to complain about pacing or editing because Lucas can direct action better than anyone. I respect people's negative issue's with the movie, Of course you are intitled to dislike the movie and still be a fan of Star Wars. Some of the dialogue was bad even for a Star Wars movie, but there was also some of the best acting performances of any of the OT.
    As for this continuing plothole nonsence, there can only be plotholes if the story is complete, and it's not.
  10. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Why do the Jedi would not suspect some thing is afoul when the clones being used for the Republic army were made using Jango Fett, who the Jedi know tried to assasinate Padme and kill Obi Wan (several times!!). That alone should have alerted them to some double-dealing or evil lurking. Then they find out the clones were ordered by Sifo-Dyas, a dead jedi, who the Kaminoans think is the Master of all Jedi. Clearly a lie. And let's not forget that the Sith are also present still. And just happpen to re-appear around the same time Sio-Dyas was killed.

    Of COURSE they suspect something. The entire last scenes of the movie are of them suspecting things. But there are greater concerns: if they begin wallowing in suspicions now, the entire war effort might fall apart before it gets started, which is exactly what Yoda is talking about when he refers to Dooku 'sowing distrust'. The Clone Army is more than a little suspicious, but it's too late to do anything about that now. and it is not a forgone conclusion that the Jedi are NOT investigating this to some degree.


    Then on top of all this, the Clones are now ready at the same time that Count Dooku and his CIS just happen to be ready to fight a war with all of their newly-made droids. And it just happens to be the same time as a vote is taking place for a Military Creation Act.

    Actually, they're not. They catch the majority of the robots on the ground. However, if you're talking within a window of months, then yes. But again I ask you, what is it exactly the Jedi can do at this point? Stop using the clones?


    All of this makes it very obvious that there is some grand scheme going on. The Jedi should have figured this out easily. Obi Wan sees the clones for himself and fights Jango. And now he suspects nothing when the clones just happen to be ready for the Jedi to take??

    Again, you fail to mention what more the Jedi can do besides stand around and be suspicious. Should they not take the clone army and allow the seperatists to walk over them? Should they keep the army out of the hands of the rightful government?


    And not to mention that Dooku tells him that the Republic is being run by Dark lords of the Sith (now I would not expect Obi Wan to take Dooku at his word, but once you see in the gladiator arena "VIP" box, Jango--clone template and Dooku, droid leader, standing together, it should be clear that someone is playing both sides.)

    First of all its is a pretty outrageous claim, second of all, I again must repeat my question: what is it exactly the Jedi are supposed to do? How do you know acting on thier suspicions is not precisely the excuse Palpatine needs to crush them?



    I had all these questions before seeing the movie and was hoping that the film would resolve this. The Jedi not need to use their force snesitivity to know what it is going on. They just need common sense. I just don't see why Yoda would ever use the clones or at least know that someone in the Republic created them 10 years in advance specifically for this war, which would mean that it's all phony. Everyone is in on it except the Jedi.


    And who would the common sense lead to? Palpatine? What can they do against him after the battle of Geonosis? Why should they suspect him either; he has no force powers. No doubt Yoda has looked him over many, many times.

    2) Why is Shmi kept alive for the Tuskens for a month? How does she live? Was she fed and given water? How is it that hse happens to die at the exact moment Anakin rolls in?

    Captives are sometimes kept by tribes like these for many months before dying. The real question is why did Anakin come upon her right when she was ready to die. The answer to that, it would seem to me, would be the "will of the force". Just what way is it the force is looking to balance things, hm?
  11. lono Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 1
    <<< No, he was just bringing out how ridiculous some of you are and bringing out the irony of many of you "bashing the bashers." >>>

    I happen to know what the word irony means and don't understand it's use in this context.


    <<<<It's the gushers who are starting threads with "why I don't think people like AOTC" or "why don't people like AOTC" or "PLEASE STOP CRITICIZING GEORGE LUCAS I WORSHIP HIM!!!!" Therefore, they are more guilty of "whining" by default. >>>>

    That may be the case but for heaven's sake there are so many threads here! I only follow a small number of threads here that interest me. there's only so many hours in the day. Some people start dumb threads, others start intelligent ones.. there's no shortage of varied threads around here.

    Lono

  12. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    To all the "bashers":

    Put the original trilogy under the same microscope you're using to nit pick the prequel trilogy and I guarentee you, the orignal trilogy films will "fall apart" every bit as quickly.

    You say that it's simple minded nostalgia that keeps us from seeing the flaws in the new films when in fact it's that simple minded nostalgia that causes you to see flaws in the prequel films while being blind to the same flaws in the original films.

    Frankly, if you're going to enjoy Star Wars then its best to enjoy it for what it is instead of picking it apart for what it isn't. This goes for the entire Star Wars saga.
  13. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    The original trilogy does not contain the same A)Editing mishaps, and B) Unbelievable "romance" that AOTC does. It does not contain Lucas quantifying modern technology and speech in Star Wars terms. And it does not contain some of the weird direction as this movie (in some of our opinions).

    The OT contains flaws, I don't see anyone who has complained about AOTC that has said that it doesn't. That's a typical defense that gushers have come up with, even though no one has even brought up the notion. I see plotholes in errors throughout the OT. However, AOTC COMPOUNDS errors to a degree where some of us cannot excuse them. As I said earlier, "cool action sequences" don't mean much to people who could care less about the characters due to their development, and the broad story means little if the intricacies are not handled well (in our opinion). I mean, really, what's so hard to see about that?
  14. funky-gonk-droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 1
    The special editions have some terrible editing mishaps. In TESB The whole Darth Vader getting in the shuttle sequence kills the finale as it's cut right in the middle of the footage of the Millenium Falcon escaping Cloud City. There I'm no Lucas gusher, credit where it's due and critisism when it diserves it. I think people look at the OT with rose tinted glasses they are good movies but not without their flaws. I see little argument to support that AOTC was editted any worse than any or the other SW movies. IMHO
  15. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4


    Nobody is perfect.
    That includes Lucas, bashers and gushers.
  16. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    "but why can't you people just admit that 'ATTACK OF THE CLONES' is a bad movie? That doesn't mean you can't love it. I love a lot of bad stuff."

    Maybe you enjoy watching bad movies, Ree Yees, but I don't. If AOTC had turned out to be a mindless, poorly made popcorn flick like The Scorpion King or Godzilla I'd be the first to criticise it. But it wasn't. It was a great film in my opinion and the opinion of many, many other fans. If we follow your argument to its logical conclusion, than all SW films are just stupid popcorn movies and we shouldn't even bother wasting our time here discussing them.
    The reason people are acting so defensive here is because for many this is their favourite SW film since Empire. I don't approve of bashing people for saying "AOTC sucked" but you should at least give some reason why it sucked, other than "it was corny", which has been true for all the films.
  17. kimyncgirl Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2002
    I'm sorry I just have to say that AOTC is one of the best movies I have ever scene! Sure it's not entirely perfect but what movie is? It sored beyond my hopes and dreams and impressed me to the point that I'm having trouble deciding.....Is ESB my favorit SW movie now or should I just admit it and say AOTC is....lol
  18. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    GONK-- You have presented some very good responses to my points. So I will try to address them. I put YOUR words in italics.

    Why do the Jedi would not suspect some thing is afoul when the clones being used for the Republic army were made using Jango Fett, who the Jedi know tried to assasinate Padme and kill Obi Wan (several times!!). That alone should have alerted them to some double-dealing or evil lurking. Then they find out the clones were ordered by Sifo-Dyas, a dead jedi, who the Kaminoans think is the Master of all Jedi. Clearly a lie. And let's not forget that the Sith are also present still. And just happpen to re-appear around the same time Sio-Dyas was killed.

    Of COURSE they suspect something. The entire last scenes of the movie are of them suspecting things. But there are greater concerns: if they begin wallowing in suspicions now, the entire war effort might fall apart before it gets started, which is exactly what Yoda is talking about when he refers to Dooku 'sowing distrust'. The Clone Army is more than a little suspicious, but it's too late to do anything about that now. and it is not a forgone conclusion that the Jedi are NOT investigating this to some degree.

    >>>>>>Well, I did not see much on the screen about any invesitgation. They just say they are going to "keep an eye" on the Senate. not much of a plan.


    Then on top of all this, the Clones are now ready at the same time that Count Dooku and his CIS just happen to be ready to fight a war with all of their newly-made droids. And it just happens to be the same time as a vote is taking place for a Military Creation Act.

    Actually, they're not. They catch the majority of the robots on the ground. However, if you're talking within a window of months, then yes. But again I ask you, what is it exactly the Jedi can do at this point? Stop using the clones?

    >>>>>>Well, I disagree. Palpatine is given emergency powers and authorizes the creation of a Grand Army of the Republic the same day Dooku lures the Jedi into the arena trap where he has thousands of droids redy to ambush them. Dooku knew the jedi would come and was ready with his droids. At this point it should be obvious that something is amiss. They don't know who actually ordered the clones, much less paid for them. And now the CIS has mobilized and Palpatine creates the army. And the one person involved in all of this is Jango Fett, since he tried to kill Padme who is anti-war, yet he is the template of the clones. <<<<<

    All of this makes it very obvious that there is some grand scheme going on. The Jedi should have figured this out easily. Obi Wan sees the clones for himself and fights Jango. And now he suspects nothing when the clones just happen to be ready for the Jedi to take??

    Again, you fail to mention what more the Jedi can do besides stand around and be suspicious. Should they not take the clone army and allow the seperatists to walk over them? Should they keep the army out of the hands of the rightful government?

    >>>>>Yes, they should not use the clones! What is the threat. The CIS wants to secede, they are not attacking people. The only planning we see by Dooku is where he is asking the various factions and political officals to sign a treaty not a military alliance. They want to make their own government, so what do the Jedi have to fear by not using the clones? If the clones did not happen to appear, what was the Senate going to do? My guess would be a draft and conscription. That can still be done. Either way, the most improtant thing is finding out who really ordered the clones. <<<<<


    And not to mention that Dooku tells him that the Republic is being run by Dark lords of the Sith (now I would not expect Obi Wan to take Dooku at his word, but once you see in the gladiator arena "VIP" box, Jango--clone template and Dooku, droid leader, standing together, it should be clear that someone is playing both sides.)

    First of all its is a pretty outrageous claim, second of all, I again must repeat my question: what is it exactly t
  19. deltau922 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 4
    LOL, what exactly does that mean when there are "mistakes" that you "can't excuse"? Seriously, how does this manifest itself? Certainly by not seeing the movie again or buying it on video, right?

    riiiiiiiiight
  20. Master-Douni-Bebro Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    I loved AOTC and can't wait to see it again! I'm really sick of the SW bashing since TPM and I really can't believe some of the people that call themselves fans.If you hate the Prequels so much why don't you forget about them? Watch the OT and pretend the new films don't exist.I've been a fan since 77 and while the new films are nothing like the OT,I don't care,because they're not supposed to be!! We're seeing everything that was alluded to in the OT in living color(Clone wars,the Jedi in their prime, the Old Republic etc).The arena battle was some of the most incredible imagery I've seen on screen yet.Ewan owns the Obi wan role....he IS Kenobi!! I thought the dialogue between Anakin and Obi Wan was beautiful.It really showed the strength of their relationship....Anakin feels stifled by Obi Wan, but he obviously loves and respects him.Yoda was incredible and seeing scores of Jedi igniting their Sabers and fighting was a childhood dream realized!! The Coruscant speeder chase was brilliant and I liked Obi Wans meeting with Dex(great character).To the true believers, I couldn't agree more....AOTC is everything I hoped it would be.May the Force be with you......
  21. Master-Douni-Bebro Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    BTW, in response to the above post I'd just like to point out that the Jedi were surrounded and about to be killed when the clone troops arrived, so whether they were suspicious or not(which they obviously are)they really had no choice....Use the Clones or die....
  22. Sidane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 1999
    star 1
    Ok I haven't read the entire topic as yet but I just want to make this point and if somebody already has, my apologies.

    Regarding the "plothole" of Sidious/Palpatine being surprised by Amidala's decision to return to Naboo in TPM..........did you not see the little smile on his face at the end of that scene as it wipes up the screen to the next scene at the Jedi Council? It's every so slight, but you can see the little curl of his lips that says "excellent, everything is proceeding exactly as I have foreseen it."

    Case closed on that one me thinks :)
  23. Ociredor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    The problem I have with bashers is that they tend to generalize everyone who liked the movie. For example, someone said that the bashers give concrete reasons and the gushers don't. Well, I'm sorry, but I have seen some ppl who liked the movie give some very concrete reasons why they liked it. I also didn't see any editing mistakes or flaws in the love story. So does that make me not a true SW fans. I just think that its possible for ppl to have different tastes on a subject.
  24. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    <<LOL, what exactly does that mean when there are "mistakes" that you "can't excuse"? Seriously, how does this manifest itself? Certainly by not seeing the movie again or buying it on video, right? >>

    Try READING my review in the review thread. I addressed most of the problems I had with the movie, and separated the "nitpicking" from what I felt were the glaring flaws.

    I've noticed that many of the gushers don't even bother to do research - how many "gusher" posts have started off with, "I didn't even bother to read..."?

    It's true - it's easier to fight a generalization that you created in your mind, but when so many are doing it, it makes your cause look bad to impartial viewers.
  25. Ociredor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    Abmcray, I read your review in the review thread, and while I honestly respect your opinion, I don't really agree with it.

    I, for one, really liked ATOC, and felt it had way more depth than TPM. The pacing may have been fast, but I used to seeing that in movies today. I didn't really have a problem with it. I also really didn't have a problem with the love story being rushed. And I did think that the acting in the movie was pretty good. If it seemed wooden it may have had to do with the characters.

    Look, I'm a second generation SW fan, I wasn't even born when Empire was released and was only 1 year old when Jedi was out in theatres. Maybe I didn't have a problem with the movie because I wasn't as emotionly attached as the ppl who saw it in a theatre back in 1977. I didn't have a problem with some of the flaws you found in the movie. If you did, thats fine, but please don't think any less of me. Maybe we just have different tastes, after all, you had no prob with the Ewoks(which are almost uni hated in the SW fanbase).

    Look I'm not saying that ATOC didn't have any flaws, because it did. And its not going to win any awards anytime soon. But I enjoyed myself and had a great time, and I tought the acting was pretty good. So I hope we can agree to disagree.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.