AOTC is a phantom movie: Why some people don't like it.

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Storm5, May 19, 2002.

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  1. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    SAFFSMALE-- If what you were saying is true, then as an adult now, I would not enjoy any Star Wars movies because the movies did not "grow up" like I did. But I love the OT and I still love watching it now. I also like ROTJ. I did back when I first saw it and still do now. I don't think any of my issues have to do with growing up save for the fact that I can easily judge a movie on its merits now than when I was 10. There were many aspects of TPM I did not like and yes, if I was a child, I am sure I may have overlooked much of it. But I think that as an adult, I should enjoy the movie without having to pretend I'm a different age. For example, I love the Lion King. It's a kid's movie (much moreso than say a movie like Shrek--which I also liked, but clearly had lots of adult-oriented humour). It's a cartoon. I think it's a great movie. I don't mind childish themes or characters. I don't mind goofy sidekicks. But the movie itself still has to be good.

    And I am not saying AOTC was bad. I DON'T think it was bad. But I do think that Jedi should have figured out the so-called "mystery". It's obvious by the arena scene as to what is going on. It's hard to believe that between all of them, they could not figure out that the Clone War was a sham.

    I think you're right that these movies do return us to our childhood and should be enjoyed that way. But we can still ask questions and point things out about the films that we have issues with. I just don't think we can go ahead and tell people who criticise AOTC why they think the way they do. Just like I would not say that anyone who loves the movie is "just pretending" or something like that.

    Anyway, I don't think we are really at odds here. *turning saber off* PLUTONIUM-- I do think you're being very civil and I understand your opinion on TPM. I'm glad AOTC renewed your love for the saga.
  2. p1ut0nium Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    It's cool amigo. I respect your opinion too. I'm not the kind of person that normally debates things in forums. But I really loved this movie and when I saw all the negative reviews, I just had to defend it. :) It's like Saffsmale_UK said. No one should be judging this movie as if it were supposed to be the next "Forrest Gump" and sweep the oscars. The OT wasn't like that, so why should these movies be like that. Mind you, the critics felt the same way about the OT. They all changed their tunes though once the dust settled and started calling the trilogy a "classic". Love those movie critics.

    Again, my main rant is with the pros, not the "common viewer that didn't like it". These professional critics need to get a real job. I think the typical movie buff doesn't listen to them anyway.

    I would like to open a little debate on your not understanding why the Jedi couldn't figure out the mystery.

    Seems to me that they DO know something is up at least. And they are totally against the war, but just as law enforcement must comply with elected officials judgements in real life, so to the Jedi must comply with the Senate. What they do not know is who the main Sith guy is, because their force powers are weakened and "the dark side clouds things". That is my understanding.
  3. Saffsmale_uk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2002
    The reason why the we all still love the originals is cos they are part of our childhood memories.....like a brilliant christmas....memories that we cherished.....thats why they did exceedingly well when the originals were re-released.....it was like we were welcoming back old friends......cos thats what we were doing....but we coudlnt pick fault with these cherished memories now......that would be blasfamy for us.....but the origianls are far from perfect......can you honestly say that you dont cringe at all or feel embarressed when you see a corny or cheesy scene in the originals???& dont say there arnt none, cos there are pleanty.....i remember when i went to see the special editions as much as i loved & wanted to go see them on the big screen....they were superb.....but some scenes that contained cheeseness & cornyness, & some of the bad acting made me cringe with ebarressment to the point where i just wanted to crawl under the seat......but it didnt make me love them any less....i love them......cos they are part of my childhood memories that i cherish EP2 AOTC isnt.......thats why we view it differently.....we choose not to see bad in our cherished memories cos like i said its blasfamy....the OT is like a part of the family.....would you let anyone say anything bad about your mother???or your grandfather whom died when you were 12 even if things said about them were true.....no you wouldnt cos they are part of your family & you have cherieshed memories of them......we all view star wars OT in the same way.
  4. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    GDS: I'll try and reply when I get time...
  5. JarJarIsBoba Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    Nobody I know is saying it's a bad movie. A lot of the "negative" feedback says it's OK. They liked TPM better. Oh well, I know TPM was more the family movie than AOTC.
  6. Double_Sting Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 4
    My persoanl opinion is that the OT thrives on it's story; the PT thrives on it's visuals and action.

    If you look at them that way, you will learn to love the PT. Take it for what it is; not what it isn't. Enjoy what's there; not what isn't.

    Personally I love both the originals and the prequels. :D
  7. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    No offense, but if you can come up with so much greater ideas and editing capabilities, how come I haven't seen *your* movie in the theater ?

    Give me 115 million $ and I will show you how to make a good Star Wars movie.
  8. moby Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 1999
    star 1
    i think you've got it backwards double_sting. the PT has much more story-wise than the originals. after the first half of ANH, its basically one escape sequence after another until the end of ROTJ.

    i will grant that people seem to like the OT characters a lot more. and the story - what there is of it - is much easier to follow.
  9. Saffsmale_uk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2002
    Double_sting......Yeah right-the OT was based more on story than special effects....i disagree if you just look at EP4 ANH on its own as one film forgetting the others there is no way that film was based any more on story than PT no way at all.....it was pure escapism & one big rollercoaster ride thats all.Answer this question-which image sticks in peoples minds the most from going to see EP4 ANH for the first time when it was originally released in 1977 eh??The Star Destroyer going over at the beggining thats what,not the look on lukes face when he found his aunt & uncle burnt to a crisp & what about EP5 TESB? which scene out of that sticks in peoples minds??The asteroid field or the AT AT'S...& lastly EP6 ROTJ??the dog fight at the end-which was brill & you expect me to believe that OT was based more on story than effects-i disagree...i agree that EP5 TESB had the most depth but that had plaenty of escapism moments in it to-where it was nothing more than effects...but you seem to forget that its scenes like these that have made the star wars films such classics,because its pure escapism not citizen kain or shakespere.....they all pushed the envelope when it came to effects & each one as tried to top the previous one & in many ways they have.....like i said yes EP5 TESB had the most depth & i agree that that had to do with the director more than anything else.....but with EP6 ROTJ we were right back to square one....one big rollercoaster ride.......but thats what star wars has always been about ESCAPISM nothing more nothing less......star wars aint science fiction its a fantasy/fairytale set in outer space & on other worlds that dont exist.....in a galaxy far far away.
  10. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    The magic is there in the prequels. Many older fans just can't see it cause they've grown up. Adults enjoyed the originals, but they didn't love em like the kids.
  11. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Ree Yees...
    "Give me 115 million $ and I will show you how to make a good Star Wars movie."

    Drop off the "tens" didgit. $11M to $14M and I will show you how to make a good Star Wars movie.

    Star Wars (1977) was only made for that much money, and it is the best Star Wars movie by far. You don't need $115M to make a good Star Wars movie. You need $115M to make a "not-the-worst" Star Wars movie.

    With only $11M or so, Lucas went on to own the world.
  12. Saffsmale_uk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2002
    Duckman.......couldnt of put it better myself......infact i did.....i said exactly the same thing a while ago & further up the boared......star wars has to be viewed in a certain way.....star wars films are meant to entertain nothing more nothing less....thats what they all did if you look at them in the right light & with the right set of eyes.......the films havnt changed....its just we've grown up & some of us refuse to let ourselves be that little kid again we once were....& if you cant do that then forget it.....cos you aint gonna see a star wars film again like you saw when you were 10 yrs old....it aint gonna happen-so get over it...the films havnt changed your way of looking at them have thats all.
  13. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    "Kenneth Turan of the Los Angeles Times writes "We'll never see another Star Wars, no matter how much we want to."


    That's funny, because I've seen two great Star Wars films in the last three years. Shame the bashers missed them :)
  14. Darth_Morfyus1999 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2002
    I've noticed an interesting thing the bashers do:

    They criticize TPM and AtoC on the grounds that it's not a good movie. What should SW be? Spiderman? That piece of **** movie? Could be any bigger of a Batman ripoff? Guess what? That garbage movie will be forgotten LONG before summer is over.

    The bashers talk on and on about plotholes. Here's some excellent ones from the "sacred OT" they love to jack off to.

    Vader let Luke fly down the Cloud City pit. Why not use the Force pull to bring him back? Cause it takes concentration? If Vader's the strongest Jedi, he could do it no problem. Yoda lifted an X-Wing NO PROBLEM from the bog , and Vader is stronger than Yoda, so it shouldn't be a problem. And please, don't give me this: "He wanted Luke to join on his own." HAHAHHAAHAHA right.

    Again, some one mentioned the sand people not killing Luke, but what? Draging him to his speeder? How odd. Guess they over look that cause it's the "sacred OT", which is above reproach.

    Then the thing the bashers do will shine thru: They will NOT give 1 rebutled to my points; instead they attack a straw man. What's also interesting is how to claim to be fans and not bashers, but low and behold, they come out of the wood work and respond to claims directed at bashers, but they are not? Hmmm. Interesting indeed
  15. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    PLUTONIOM said: Seems to me that they DO know something is up at least. And they are totally against the war, but just as law enforcement must comply with elected officials judgements in real life, so to the Jedi must comply with the Senate. What they do not know is who the main Sith guy is, because their force powers are weakened and "the dark side clouds things". That is my understanding.

    I don't think the Jedi know much. At the end of the film, their only conlcusion is to "keep an eye on the Senate." I think if they were convinced a Sith was running the Senate they would tak emuch more drastic action. And moreover, as I stated before, they should have known that the Clone War was a phony battle that was orchestrated by the Sith (Dooku) with aid of the Senate. At the point, there is no reason to "follow orders" and carry out a war. I don't know why Yoda would allow the Jedi to go along with a plan that involved the Sith. It's too much of a risk to take in the name of protocol.

    SAFESMALE-- I do understand you rpoint about looking back on the OT now and seeing it as corny. but I really don't find it that corny now when I watch it. I still think they are very enjoyable films for adults in this day and age. And I am sure that the love that built up over the years has helped me overlook some of the flaws the films may have. But I still don't think the issues (Jedi ignoring the truth about the entire plot in AOTC) or corniness ("sand is rough, you are smooth"; Jar Jar; the 2 headed pod race announcer monstrosity in TPM) in the PT is the same as the OT's. I think these are much much more present in the PT.
  16. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    <<Vader let Luke fly down the Cloud City pit. Why not use the Force pull to bring him back? Cause it takes concentration? If Vader's the strongest Jedi, he could do it no problem. Yoda lifted an X-Wing NO PROBLEM from the bog , and Vader is stronger than Yoda, so it shouldn't be a problem. And please, don't give me this: "He wanted Luke to join on his own." HAHAHHAAHAHA right.

    Again, some one mentioned the sand people not killing Luke, but what? Draging him to his speeder? How odd. Guess they over look that cause it's the "sacred OT", which is above reproach.>>

    Even though my plotholes are quite different than the "normal" ones brought out here, I can easily answer one of your points:

    1) Yoda did concentrate when lifting the X-Wing. He stood there, clenched, closed his eyes, bowed his head, and moved his hand in the direction that the X-Wing went. Did Vader have time to do that when Luke fell? Nope.

    2) I don't know what you're referring to with the sand people thing (you didn't provide any direct quotes), but it wasn't in response to anything I brought out. My assumption when watching ANH was that the sand people were just planning to take all of Luke's stuff and leave him out in the desert. Any assumption would be correct, since no intent was given.

    People like you (the person who raised those questions) are the problem here. For some reason, you have embraced a movie so much, that any criticism against it is not met with a discussion of the logic behind it (sans those two questions), but is instead met with unwarranted attacks against the person giving the criticism, other movies, or random motives given for the criticism. Childish little brats like you are the ones that make this place a mirror of AICN, and make it nearly impossible to hold any sort of decent conversation without having to put up with tons of drivel in between.
  17. DAK52476 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 1
    "The original trilogy does not contain the same A)Editing mishaps, and B) Unbelievable "romance" that AOTC does. It does not contain Lucas quantifying modern technology and speech in Star Wars terms. And it does not contain some of the weird direction as this movie (in some of our opinions).

    The OT contains flaws, I don't see anyone who has complained about AOTC that has said that it doesn't. That's a typical defense that gushers have come up with, even though no one has even brought up the notion. I see plotholes in errors throughout the OT. However, AOTC COMPOUNDS errors to a degree where some of us cannot excuse them. As I said earlier, "cool action sequences" don't mean much to people who could care less about the characters due to their development, and the broad story means little if the intricacies are not handled well (in our opinion). I mean, really, what's so hard to see about that? "

    If it's a typical defense that the gushers come up with, it's probably because it's true. You may acknowledge flaws in OT, but you may also minimze them due to nostagia.

    No OT didn't contain an unconvincing romance. However, ROTJ contained mark hamil's debatably less convincing displays of concern for his father (which were equally important to the plot I might add).

    Editing flaws? Well, that one scene in TPM where Jar Jar tells padme that he's 'berry berry scared' had no reason to be left in (or even shot for that matter). But other than that both movies are cut in the same 'saturday morning cartoon' fashion that the OT was. Hence the scene where anakin decides to go to tatooine was set up with a 'waking up from a nightmare' scene, and lukes conflicting thoughts about vaders revaltion were conveyd by that cheesy wipe effect("join me luke, it is your destiny"..."ben why didn't you tell me.") Not as subtle something Kubrick might use, but it's the way Star Wars works.

    Plot holes? Obi-Wan saying "only imperial stormtroopers are so precise" is still the biggest one in the whole series so far.
  18. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    It's not because of nostalgia than any "questionable sequences" in the OT are defended more heavily than similar or, more often, worse sequences in the prequels: The ORIGINAL TRILOGY *did* come FIRST, so it's not strange to discuss things from that point of view is it? It is "TPM" and "AOTC" that should adhere to the original films, not the other way around.
  19. HBMC_Kloon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2002
    star 2
    Strange thing.

    In 50 years, after GL is dead and buried, they'll make a clone of him from some frozen DNA. He'll go ahead and make three new episodes, and the critics will drill into them saying:

    "Episode 7 is a total waste of time and makes you wish for the class days of Star Wars when The Phantom Menace was released! Where's Jar Jar? Where's the poodoo jokes? This is not Star Wars anymore! This is blasphemy! The real George Lucas will be rolling around in his solid gold coffin!"

    And instead of threads like "I miss Han Solo!" it'll be "I miss Dexter Jettser!"

    I love AOTC. I like TPM. I like TPM more now that AOTC is able to branch from it and flesh it out a little. Some people see that as a fault, that TPM requires another movie to make it "good", but I think that's crap. ROTJ doesn't make a whole lotta sense without ESB, and ESB's ending is kinda lax without ROTJ. Neither of them make sense without ANH.

    The same applies to the PT. TPM and AOTC are the first 4 hours of a 6 hour story. Stop trying to see each one as a complete story, as it's not. The only complete SW movie is ANH, as Lucas didn't know he was going to be making any others.

    BYE

    (EDIT: Think before you type! AHHH! :D)
  20. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    If all the bashers had seen AOTC in 1977 they would have worshipped it. Shame they are too cynical to enjoy Star Wars films now.
  21. Saffsmale_uk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2002
    The problem is....the time & age we live in-thats what....& what bothers me is these fans on here whom are saying the PT star wars films are more special effects orientated movies than the originals which is complete crap....The problem is that you are comparing them to the OT films & you just cant do that.These films were made way way before CGI was invented....so you have to look at them in the context of when they were made....All three of the OT films had just as many special effects in them as the new PT films have BUT FOR WHEN THEY WERE MADE..do you understand what i mean.You have to take into account budget,cost & overall capability....For 1. gorege didnt have the funds he had back then-hence the special editions,2.the cost for effects back then-even stop motion was huge-the original cost 10 million to make,10MILLION that is peanuts now but back then it wasnt..& 3. capability-(hence the special editions again)they couldnt do anything back then-they were very limited in what they could do-they could achieve very little indeed & the things they did achieve in the OT films pushed the special effects envelope & were things that had never been done before-Which wowed people of all ages & the star wars films are the reason why we now have CGI & if it werent through the star wars films we wouldnt of had groundbreaking films like jurassic park.The ILM company was created by lucas to create all the effects for star wars...But going back to my original point the originals had just as many effects as the new PT films when you comapare them in the context of when the films were made....each star wars film had more special effects in them than any other sfx film up to that period of time....they all pushed the envelope of effects & thats just what the new ones are doing exactly the same as what the originals did except its 20 or so years later & the technology & methods have changed big time & i think for the better.

    & Once again i have to agree with Duckman...can you imagine if somehow lucas had done the saga in chronological order???starting with Ep1 TPM in 1977 & us now getting Ep4 this being Ep5 with Ep6 to come...can you imagine..we would all consider these films as classics & we would all be complaining about the Sequel Trilogy especially the part where Darth Vader turns back to the good side(ohh we wouldnt have that yet would we).
  22. Saffsmale_uk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2002
    Green_Destiny....i have to say that i agree & dissagree with what you are saying about-the cornyness & cheese in the embaressing moments of these films...i agree that the new PT films have there fair share of cornyness & cheese,i dont think that the new PT as any more or any less cornyness & cheese compared to the OT films....infact i think when you compare them it ballances out....yes i would probably agree that EP1 TPM had a fare bit of that cornyness & in alot of ways id say it is the most imature Episode of the 6 parts,but what can you expect?the lead role was a 9yr old-even though saying that i didnt think that EP1 TPM was that much more imature & kiddie orientated than EP6 ROTJ was....& speaking of comparrisons EP2 AOTC didnt have any where near as much cheesyness as EP4 ANH had-any where near,infact so far this is how i would rate the films in order of maturity....the most mature being first to the most imature being last.

    1.EP5 TESB
    2.EP2 AOTC
    3.EP4 ANH
    4.EP6 ROTJ
    5.EP1 TPM

    Saying all that & taking that into account...i think that there is a huge leap of maturity from EP4 ANH to EP2 AOTC....EP2 AOTC didnt have any where near as many embarressing scenes that were corny or cheesy as EP4 ANH had in it.

    And im guessing & hoping that EP3 will either be more mature that EP5 TESB or at least equal it.

    Just my opinion.
  23. DAK52476 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 1
    "It's not because of nostalgia than any "questionable sequences" in the OT are defended more heavily than similar or, more often, worse sequences in the prequels: The ORIGINAL TRILOGY *did* come FIRST, so it's not strange to discuss things from that point of view is it? It is "TPM" and "AOTC" that should adhere to the original films, not the other way around."

    But you said yourself, that the PT has sequences that are 'often worse.' What makes the officer from ESB saying "good, our first catch of the day" better than Panaka saying "you can kiss your trade franchise goodbye"? What makes mark hammil's acting better than jake lloyds?

    I would say it's nostalgia. Because side by side, these things are actaully quite similar.
  24. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    Um, Mark Hamil's acting is FAR better than Jake Lloyd's. If you can't tell that, you know nothing about acting.

    Someone said that the NT is paced the same as the OT. Wrong. TPM has the same pacing and structure, but not ATOC. The OT doesn't cut away for two minutes, cut back for two minutes, and cut away for two minutes again. Common editing sense tells you not to do that.
  25. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Um, AOTC had the same editing style as ESB - cutting between two parallel stories. The cuts may have been quicker in AOTC, but that's only because there was a lot more story to get in.
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