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AOTC is a phantom movie: Why some people don't like it.

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Storm5, May 19, 2002.

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  1. DAK52476

    DAK52476 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Aug 21, 1999
    "Um, Mark Hamil's acting is FAR better than Jake Lloyd's. If you can't tell that, you know nothing about acting.

    Someone said that the NT is paced the same as the OT. Wrong. TPM has the same pacing and structure, but not ATOC. The OT doesn't cut away for two minutes, cut back for two minutes, and cut away for two minutes again. Common editing sense tells you not to do that. "

    This is what I meant by nostalgia. You've grown up with Hammil so you accept his perfomance. But that doesn't his acting in ROTJ any less bland.

    As for the editing, yes the OT did cut back and forth a lot, particularly in ESB. Admitedly I haven't sat down with a stop watch and timed them to see EXACTLY which one does it more often, but they both do it quite a bit. And neither is as choppy as, say, Dark City.
  2. abmccray

    abmccray Jedi Youngling star 2

    May 16, 2002
    No, Hamill was "stiff" in RotJ because he was supposed to have matured into the "stiffness" that Mace Windu and Qui Gon show NOW. And he was still a bit looser than them.

    In other words, he was supposed to have matured.

    I don't really have a problem with the acting (I have a problem with the writing), and am a firm defender of Jake Lloyd. However, comparing Jake Lloyd's acting to Mark Hamill's is just dumb. Jake Lloyd's line delivery is at times rushed, he mashes sentences together, etc. etc. etc. I defend him because he is a kid and a lot better than others (Including the kid that played Boba Fett). Haley Joel Osment couldn't make "yippeee!" and "are you an angel?" sound right. However, he's still a mediocre child actor, and his performance was nowhere near the level of even Billy Dee Williams' in Jedi.
  3. Telemachos

    Telemachos Jedi Youngling star 2

    May 21, 2002
    I'll defend Jake Lloyd too, but I thought the kid who played Boba did an excellent job. Of course, his part was also written better.... ;)
  4. Saffsmale_uk

    Saffsmale_uk Jedi Youngling

    Mar 9, 2002
    We cant really judge the acting capability of a child can we??i mean they are kids for gods sake....I guess you all saw the beggining of documentary in the TPM DVD lucas picked Jagke Lloyd because he was the most natural at acting compared to the other child actors & i agree-he was miles better than those other 2 kids shown on it.But i would also go as far to say that he was just as good as Mark Hamill was at acting out emotion in the original EP4 ANH....which says alot considering there was like a 10 year gap between the two of them.....Mark Hamil should of been better-alot better,but he wasnt....So hands up for Jake Lloyd for if not bettering Mr Hamill's performance then at least equalling it...congratualtions to him i say.
  5. DAK52476

    DAK52476 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Aug 21, 1999
    I know he was supposed to be 'serene' but he seemed more...I don't know...disinterested. There are ways of pulling of 'calm and focused', and then there are ways of sounding like you're reading off of a cue card.
  6. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jun 20, 2001
    SAFESMALE-- You're right. AOTC was much more serious and less cheesy than TPM. But I think that above plot hole we were discussing seriously took away from the movie. It just came off as a pretty illogical ending.

    But to compare say Jar Jar to C3p0 and R2, the main comic relief in the OT, I don't think it's even close. The droids blew him away. I don't even find the droids in the OT that cheesy or corny at all. I thought they were funny! Although now that I think about it, Chewie's tarzan yell was a little silly.

    Again, it's all a matter of opinion, but I think there is much more of these issues in the PT.
  7. Count_Vince

    Count_Vince Jedi Youngling

    May 20, 2002
    Hi ppl,

    first of all: Great to be here! I'm hoping to have loads of fun -- and heated discussions :) -- with you guys!

    Secondly, concerning the actual topic of this thread, let me say that I'm one of those who did *not* enjoy AOTC. However, the reason for this is not all the subtle stuff going on behind the scenes! Having seen the OT, I know how many things will work out anyways, I like mysteries in general and I do realize that AOTC is only the 2nd part of a triology. No problems there.

    I also enjoyed the plot idea. There are, after all, two very solid seperate storylines in this movie, namely the Anakin/Padmé romance and Obi-Wan's hunt for her assassin. Nice plot points indeed!

    So, what the heck is my freakin' problem? Well, to me, this just ain't SW. I'm only 17 - I didn't grow up with the OT, but I fell in love with it the first time I saw it. The OT is a well-built and well-executed epic with lots of emotion and action.

    In comparism, the prequel triology -- and, IMO, ATOC even more so than TPM -- is shaping up to be a bag of fancy computer tricks and a crapload of explosions, with only very few well-developed characters thrown in. GL's simply trying too hard, IMO. The fact that, "thanks" to CGI, he isn't restricted in his actions anymore is turning out to be a curse; a curse that clearly influenced AOTC. No matter what scene you look at, you'll usually find lots of CGI-animations surrounding our human heroes. Countless backgrounds, aliens, vehicles and action scenes are done in CGI. I honestly don't think there is *any* scene left in this movie that is *not* computer-enhenced.

    And THIS is what I'm complaining about. As I said, I didn't grow up in the "good ol' days" -- so it's not an issue of age --, but I just don't dig all this CGI-stuff. Why did GL have to fix something that was not broken? Why did he have to plaster those impersonal and unreal effects all over AOTC? Why didn't he do things the same way he did them in the OT, making only a few neccessary changes (e.g. in the animation of certain *special* creatures or explosion effects)? Why didn't he use his high-tech equipment to *enhance* real stuff instead of creating thousands of unneccssary effects that accomplish only one thing: Taking the "special" out of "special effects"?

    Why, GL, why? :( Why fix something that's just fine... Forget all your computers, man, work on the beef! The drama! I'll take the final duel between Luke and Vader -- from ROTJ -- over the arena battle -- of ATOC --any given day!

    There are other issues I have with this movie (namely the obvious cuts, the music, etc.), but since this is not a review thread and the problem mentioned above is my main concern, I decided to go with that.

    Whadda y'all think?

  8. Boola Cronk

    Boola Cronk Jedi Youngling star 2

    Apr 5, 1999
    Count Vince I can explain that. GL has always been the one to break new ground in movie making. Do you actually think that with all the tools at his disposal, he would go back to the basics and use models and firecracker explosions? You have to think with the times, we are in the new Millenium. Can you imagine what would happen in the media if GL DID do as you suggest? He probably would never be taken seriously again as a movie maker.

    What about the cost involved with those early effects? Its far more expensive to have to MAKE every single vehicle, ship, set or environment by hand, especially for what was required in AOTC. In fact that is ONE of the reasons why the PT could not be made first, there were just TOO MANY visuals that could not be reproduced at that time. With ANH he only had to worry about building set pieces as most all the action took place aboard star ships, rebel bases, the death star and a couple of 'on location' sets for the Tatooine scenes. Whereas in TPM, you have Coruscant and the underwater city, both of which were virtually impossible to create back then.

    And if you think about it, back when the OT was made there was STILL some who were saying the same thing you are saying about CG. You have to accept the fact that CG is here to stay and IS the state of the art. In a few years it will be so common place in movies you will hardly be able to notice.
  9. Darth_Morfyus1999

    Darth_Morfyus1999 Jedi Youngling

    Mar 16, 2002
    "with only very few well-developed characters thrown in."

    Star Wars is plot driven, not character driven. Characters never were and never will be the focus of Star Wars. The plot is the central focus and the characters are only there to move the plot along. It's not drama. It's 50s serial, matinee, popcorn, blah, blah, blah. Not Citizen Kane, not Godfather, not Gone With The Wind.
  10. -Madcap-

    -Madcap- Jedi Youngling star 3

    Jun 9, 2001
    I defend Jake Lloyd because he's just a kid, not every kid is Haley Joel Osment and you can't expect him to be.

    For an 8 year old he was fine.
  11. abmccray

    abmccray Jedi Youngling star 2

    May 16, 2002
    Uh, Darth Morfyus, Star Wars was ALWAYS about the characters. Perhaps that is why you fail to see our problems with AOTC.
  12. Darth_Morfyus1999

    Darth_Morfyus1999 Jedi Youngling

    Mar 16, 2002
    Ah, GL has said himself that the characters come second and serve to move the plot. Besides, there is character development in all 5 of the films, just not as much as a character driven movie.

    Again, your nostalgia blinds you. Which is why you fail to see that AotC is no different than the other episodes.
  13. topgoalscorer_no11

    topgoalscorer_no11 Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 23, 2001
    Star Wars was never really about the characters.

    But AotC is just as character driven as ESB, if not more so.

    I'm afraid Star Wars characters have always been limited to simple archetypes. Anakin is probably more complex than any character in the OT. Other than himself, perhaps, although that complexity derives from the new films.

    There are many great films with wonderfully complex and interesting characters. Star Wars is not about that.

    Sci-Fi. Adventure.
  14. dmodog

    dmodog Jedi Youngling

    Mar 1, 1999

    check out this thread. it's about the nature of the negative criticism. the guy (darth corky) speaks the truth.
  15. Hanze

    Hanze Jedi Youngling

    May 24, 2002
    Firstly I just want to outline my views on the movie.
    * Poor characterization
    * Overusage of CGI
    * Weak, weak, weak did I mention weak

    If you compare the prequels to the originals its obvious how star wars has changed. There is no doubt,that what made the OT so good was the characterization. Lucas immersed us in the adventures of Luke, Han and Leigh and it was done so well. It wasn't the FX and lightsaber duels that made Star Wars great, it was the characters who we began to love as we followed their journey through the world of star wars. An obvious example is that of the comparison in relationship between Han and Leigh and Anakin and Padme. I think that the main problem with the prequels is the poor characterization.

  16. insseuv

    insseuv Jedi Youngling star 1

    Nov 6, 2001
    hmmmm, in fact......

    AOTC is awesome and i enjoy that the prequel is different than the OT !!

    Only old people think all must be the same, any 20 years after ;)

    I'm not a younger fool, i'm 27 and fan since 1983 so... i imagine this prelogy since i'm 8 and i'm happy to tell you that i think that this prelogy will be awesome when it'll end !!! :):):)
  17. Tar-Jinn

    Tar-Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Apr 23, 2001

    For me, part of the appeal of Star Wars is actually the richness of this world. It's like... well, there ARE the main characters. But there are also thousands of little details that make the world believable. In TPM, on Naboo, Qui-Gon and Sabe discuss going to Coruscant in front of a door. The door has a button/lock next to it. Well, I want to press that button! To see what a Naboo house looks on the inside!

    And well, because of the technical restraints the OT is very much human-dominated. Take ANH: the only scene where there are as many aliens as humans is the Cantina.
    The PT has - I don't even know how many - alien species. This gives you a total change of perspective! It's a rich, rich world, in which there are many humans, but also many Twi'leks, Gungans, Niktos, Aqualish, Weequays, Yoda-species, Zabraks, Rodians, Wookiees, Dex' species, Kaminoans, and so on. The aliens are no more just an oddity in a sea of humans. They are simply there. They are something normal.
    And even the humans are very diverse. The gritty life of a Tatooine moisture farmer is totally different than that of a Naboo Queen! In the OT, even an Alderaani princess and a Corellian spice smuggler are forced to live the same life. In the PT, they perhaps would have met, as Amidala and Anakin did, but perhaps not. This galaxy is just so big, just as a galaxy should be.

    And instead of a uniform lifestyle to which people are forced - those awful, angular starships (mind you, I'm not saying they suck, they are awesome, just without aesthetical value) - we have the Gungans and their underwater cities; the Naboo, a utopia based on aesthetics; Coruscant, with its sleek speeders and never-ending traffic jams; Kamino, whose white, pristine walls are actually covered with a multitude of colours, just none of them visible to the human eye. People in the PT are able to look not only for the utilitarian values in vehicles, also actually for style.

    So well, of course this is all useless without a plot. Of course. And yet, this attention to detail, which is visible in all those costumes, models, and, of course, CGI... I find it actually endearing, to see not only the life of a couple of people, but the life of a whole Republic! I mean, for instance, Coruscant. This is supposed to be the centre of a Republic that spans thousands of systems. How can it have only humans, and the occasional alien on it, like for instance ESB? It has to be full of life: human life and alien life.
    The PT is about the fall of Anakin Skywalker. But also about the fall of a whole Republic. Thanks to the PT I see what Obi-Wan mourns in ANH. I can feel for him more.

    Take, for instance, the TPM Sith Infiltrator vs. the Millennium Falcon. Yes, the Falcon is awesome; yes, it did save the lives of Leia and Luke many times. But it is basically just a delapidated, old ship, ready to break down any second now. The Infiltrator is a customized, sleek, state-of-the-art ship. Comparing the Falcon to it would be like comparing an old mass-produced car to a James Bond BMW. Yes, Han may love the Falcon; but Han was never given a chance to see the Infiltrator. I don't mean to say that Han would choose the Infiltrator over the Falcon - I don't really think he would, he loves the Falcon too much - only that he never saw it. Never had a chance to see those sleek, beautiful, if less functional, PT ships.

    You are complaining that GL isn't re-using normal/real stuff. Well, I personally like it. For a change, I don't have aliens behaving as Earth humans in a film. I even don't have humans behaving as Earth humans in a film! That's good, because it again shows how big that Galaxy is. That not all the intelligent species live in families: some form hive societies (Geonosians). That not every human believes that the best way to show your emotions is putting them on your face: some prefer to show it through the clothes they wear (Naboo). That there may be aliens who actually use cloning to create future generations (Kaminoans).

    And well, the Geonosians are like termites.
    Amidala is
  18. Count_Vince

    Count_Vince Jedi Youngling

    May 20, 2002
    Thanx for the comments everyone! :)

    Boola Cronk, Tar-Jinn,

    of course I was never expecting GL to produce the PT in exactly the same manner he did the OT. As I said, some CGI was to be expected; heck, actually, *a lot* of CGI was to be expected. But what Lucas ended up doing still took me by surprise. yet I *was* hoping that he would limit CGI to special locations (e.g. Gungan City), creatures and vehicles or use some tricks to enhance backgrounds and such. Instead, it's CGI all - the - way. And this is what ticks me off, the fact that the line between "detail" and "overkill" was so carelessly crossed.

    I *know* that CGI is the name of the game in today's movie world - and I really have no problem with it, as long as the stuff isn't shoved down my throat every two seconds!

    Let's take my all-time favorite movie (please don't cry blashempy ;) ): Lord of The Rings. It simply blew me away - and it definitely had CGI. I know that and I noticed it. Look at Mordor, the caverns of Isengard or Gollum -- CGI, obviously.

    So what made me devour LOTR and groan at ATOC? Simple. It was the fact that, in LOTR, the computer animations were not so blatantly overdone; the viewer could still view them as "wonders" (i.e. special effects). GL on the other hand is making wonders the rule rather than the expection, and while I'm sure this may excite some people, I'm definitely not one them... Sorry. :(

    Now, I'm sure some people would love to jump me here and point out various othe rcases in which CGI was during LOTR, thus showing, well, how much I know, basically.

    If you're thinking about that, don't bother, though. The effects I mentioned above are the ones that I noticed to be computer-generated in a heart-beat, and I remember them. If there was, in fact, much more CGI used (I honestly don't know), then, well, I *didn't* notice it. Which means I don't care. As long as the effects don't jump off the screen, grab me by the collar and scream "CGI" in my face, I don't care. :D Simple as that.

    As far as characters I concerned, I simply don't want to believe that they dominated the OT merely because GL didn't have thousands of gigabytes at his disposal back then! I want to see it as the story of Luke Skywalker -- a farmer boy who went on to become the last Jedi --, of the evil Darth Vader -- the monster that turned back to humanity in the end -- and of Han Solo and Leia Organa, whose love blossomed despite the turmoils of the time and their different backgrounds. All this may happen in a galaxy far, far away, but what's important is not that galaxy, IMO. It's the people.

    Similarily, the PT should not be about said galaxy, either. It's not a documentary about the way GL imagines life there. It's the story of Anakin Skywalker's fall and the events surrounding it. Again, only IMO, of course.
  19. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jun 20, 2001
    TAR-JINN said: That's the beauty of this: Jango is such a scum that he might well be working for both sides independently, profiting from both sides.
    It's kind of like Dooku telling Obi-Wan the truth about Sidious controlling the Senate.

    Jango IS working for both sides in this film and this is precisely why the mystery is over 3/4 through the film. We know Jango tried to kill Padme. We know he tried to kill Obi Wan. Yet, he is the template for the Clone Army. How does this not raise suspsicion??
    After he fights Obi Wan, why would Jango be going to Geonosis? As soon as Obi Wan sees the droid foundry and Count Dooku with the CIS, the suspicion is raised. Once Jango and Dooku are in the arena VIP box together, the mystery is over.

    And besides, it's not only the Jedi who learn about the droid army, it's also the politicians. What would they do if they saw the Jedi see the army and not do anything?

    I am not saying the Jedi should do nothing. But Mace makes it clear from the beginning that the Jedi will not be figting in any war. Thus the Military creation Act. If the clones never existed, what was the Senate going to do? Most likely make an army through the draft and conscription.

    In any case, what you are forgetting is that by the time Obi-Wan saw Jango on the Arena, it was already too late, the Jedi were on their way. And that Mace, our Jedi Leader Extraordinaire, killed the only person who could definitely solve this mystery.

    Even if it was "too late" in the arena, by the time the battle of Geonosis is over, the Jedi know that the assassin was the template for the clones that were ordered under the name of a dead Jedi. This same template, who tried to kill a senator and a Jedi is working with Count Dooku, who they know is a Sith and just happens to be the leader of the CIS and their droid armies. And it also happens that the clones were ordered 10 years ago, the same time Sifo-Dyas was killed and also the same time that Dooku left the Order. AND also the same time the Sith re-appeared on the scene (Darth Maul). And of course the same time the Chosen One happens to show up.

    This is not rocket science. There is no mystery. It is obvious that the Clone War is being orchestrated by the Sith with help from the Senate. The clones should not be used. The smartest option for the Jedi would be to never use the Clones in the war since it is clear that the Sith want them to. They could also examine who gained the most from the series of events: the Kaminoans, Dooku and Palpatine. The Jedi should have figured this out without Jedi sense. It only takes common sense.
  20. Tar-Jinn

    Tar-Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Apr 23, 2001
    First, Count. Funny. I actually groaned several times during LotR. I don't think the Balrog and Galadriel's Big Speech were intended to be funny. Luckily for my audience I don't usually laugh aloud in a cinema.

    What I was just trying to say is:
    Take Kamino.
    We can have the Kaminoans as humans, or as aliens.
    If they were human, I would be somewhat disappointed. Because if we have them as aliens, I can start to imagine how they see humans, what their society is like etc. Yes, I know this may mark me as having no real life, but I like to imagine such things. For instance in traffic jams.

    The thing is, I actually like making up stories, and thanks to CGI, Lucas offers me a really big world. My sister likes Dex, I don't like him. She likes the Falcon, I like the Infiltrator. She likes Coruscant, I like Naboo and the Jedi Temple. And so on.

    It's a rich, rich world in which you can make up your own stories... See the multitude of fanfics, fan films etc. And much of it is special effects. Well, if it be so, let it be so. I have no problem with suspending my imagination. On the contrary, seeing so many "alien" details, I feel less like on Earth, and more like there, in the GFFA.

    I wasn't trying to insult the OT. It's just that for me, as opposed to you, the galaxy itself is just as important as what's happening in it. So I like to see what George's and those art folks' imagination brought us.

    I mean, the shot in the TPM trailer that hooked me for TPM wasn't Maul's lightsabre, but the Theed vista. I mean, from the moment I saw it for the first time, I was like: "I want a house on Naboo!"

    I knew I would get berated for that Jango thing several seconds after the editing time was over. Alas.

    This has actually a lot to do with Jango's motives. The guy behind the mask is tougher to crack for me than Padme Amidala, actually. ;)

    I mean, let's take things chronologically:

    10 years ago, hired by Tyrannus for Kamino
    a couple of weeks ago, I guess, hired by Dooku for Padme's assassinations

    Now, I don't believe that he knows that Tyrannus is Dooku, because I don't see Sidious allowing for that kind of info to reach a third party. I think he was hired twice.

    Escapes from Kamino for fear of Jedi investigation into the Padme assassination attempt... actually, not even for fear of Obi-Wan, because he might even think he killed him, but in general for fear of Jedi. Perhaps he suspects (correctly) that Kenobi sent some message out.
    Escapes to Geonosis, to his second employer.

    Obi-Wan knows that he is the donor, and that he is implicated into the assassination attempt.

    Thinks Kenobi is dead after the Rings Chase. No one knows where Kenobi went to, so he thinks he is safe.

    After listening to Dooku, Kenobi knows Jango was working for him. But he also knows that Jango is working for the Kaminoans. But since Jango is a bounty hunter, he could be actually working for two employers simultaneously. Two employers with conflicting interests, of course. Not enough incriminating evidence, alas.
    See, if it were anyone but a bounty hunter, Obi-Wan would probably assume that the things were somehow connected. But since Jango is a bounty hunter, and by definition has a certain type of amorality, Obi-Wan probably assumes those two things aren't linked.
    And also, he might for instance think that Jango, in addition to coming to Geonosis to take further orders from Dooku, could be a spy planted in the Trade Feds by this Tyrannus guy. Or something.

    And then, Jango is dead, Boba is let loose, and Dooku escapes after spilling some things that the Jedi assume to be lies.

    You write:
    Even if it was "too late" in the arena, by the time the battle of Geonosis is over, the Jedi know that the assassin was the template for the clones that were ordered under the name of a dead Jedi. This same template, who tried to kill a senator and a Jedi is working with Count Dooku, who they know is a Sith and just happens to be the leader of the CIS and their dro
  21. ECM_Boba_Fett

    ECM_Boba_Fett Jedi Youngling star 3

    Feb 16, 2002
  22. ECM_Boba_Fett

    ECM_Boba_Fett Jedi Youngling star 3

    Feb 16, 2002
  23. BannedJedi

    BannedJedi Jedi Youngling

    Nov 25, 2000
    Attack of the Clones parralled the Empire Strikes back too much. The should of just cloned Empire. I think they could have picked a better actor than Christian to play Ankain. Don't get me wrong he is good actor, but in some parts of the movie it was like he was just remembering lines.
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