AOTC is boring compared to what?

Bresson,

I have a lot to cover here. As far as the flame that I posted, I don't care if that was directed at me,or a 15 year old kid, it was a self superior and totally insulting thing you said. Read your post, I did.

First off, the music score. that was a false statement. As a musician of 24 years, I know a thing or two about music and it's origins. There were many MANY innovative scoring techniques that came out before 1941. Where did you get your info on that? The score in Citizen Kane has no life when compared to John Williams' scores IMO. Music is emotion,and the techniques used in Citizen Kane fall flat. Todays scores are almost like another actor with it's memorable scores(and Citizen Kane's score is not memorable to the vast majority. Another part that doesn't hold up.) Music is also sound,and I won't even get into the way Lucas has revolutionized sound,techniques that he didn't pick up from Citizen Kane I'm guessing. Just a guess.

Did Citizen Kane have broad cinematic landscape to it? Lucas took that to a level that Welles could only look at and stare in amazement. A Galaxy was created on screen,with unique worlds and creatures,as well as pioneering special effects. I would call that about as deep and focused as cinematography can get. He makes you believe that fake things are real. That takes much more effort than a picture Like Citizen Kane does. And again, there were movies prior to 1941 that were innovative in this regard as well. Silent pictures come to mind.

You mention the influences that Welles had on the works of Hawkes and Altman.( I like Rio Bravo and Mash as much as the next),but the perfection of overlapping dialogue is not anything to do cartwheels over,or maybe you do. Lucas didn't influence any directors on that level,he only influenced hacks like Spielberg,Cameron,Scott, and a whole slew of VERY highly thought of directors.

"Did ANH fracture story structure in a manner that's still being felt today(Momento,anyone?Rashoman)"

I would say that LOTR is a perfect example of this.(Not to mention the sequels to ANH that are still being felt today)What were your examples again

As far as Citizen Kane being regarded as the greatest or one of the greatest movies,do you really believe this is the general consesus(oh yeah...we are stupid if we don't feel that way...I forgot) In it's time perhaps,but that day is long past in most people's(not all)eyes. The shelf life was nowhere near that of Star Wars or even the Godfather. As far as missing all of the hype surrounding it's DVD, it seems a lot of people did,and if you look at it's sales,you'll see that to be true. Sorry I missed it. Darn.

And I hold movies in a high regard as well, but like I said( and you apparently didn't get) I form my own opinions about what I think is a good movie,an art form,whatever...You have a real problem putting yourself above others. You don't respect opinions that aren't as "great" as your own. I didn't put down a great movie to build up one that I liked. Can you post a quote from me where I said I thought Citizen Kane was great? Oh yeah, I'm supposed to have your opinion, not my own. Next time I'll ask you what my opinion should be. I'm not wrong for holding a movie in high regard or holding a movie in low regard, no more than you are. If everyone loved a movie and I hated it,it's my opinion,and I'm entitled to it just like everyone is. I don't have to justify it, but if I choose to, I will. I'm not justifying my Star Wars opinion here,but if your interested(and judging from your posts,I seriously doubt it) they are all over these forums.

 

Right on Darth-Solo!

 

Thanks George

 

Darth Solo,

Your arrogance is getting the best of you.

"The score in Citizen Kane has no life when compared to John Williams' scores IMO. Music is emotion,and the techniques used in Citizen Kane fall flat. "

Watch the scene where Kane meets his mistress and walks into her apartment for the first time. That's not memorable scoring that's both subtle and evocative? Listen to the music in the opening Gothic scene, when the light goes out. Watch/listen to how perfectly the music accentuates the scene where the reporter invstigates Kane's childhood and the camera glides over the lettering in the diary, and how the music leads us into a shot of the sled. But I guess that's bad music scoring for no other reason than John Williams didn't do it.

As far as sound design, remember all the great sound cuts in KANE? When Kane goes on the campaign trail and they build the entire arc of his political rise in three simple cuts that cross months, by CUTTING ON SOUND! That was revolutionary and since has gone on to influence people like David Lean and Stanley Kubrick and Martin Scorsese. I've always said STAR WARS was a great and landmark sound film.


"Lucas didn't influence any directors on that level,he only influenced hacks like Spielberg,Cameron,Scott, and a whole slew of VERY highly thought of directors. "

I'm not here to bash Lucas. I've never said Lucas didn't influence a whole generation. I've said before and will say again, "Lucas deserves to be held in the same regard, technically, as Welles and Kubrick. And he matches Walt Disney and Melies in the scope of his visual imagination." My feelings about Lucas aren't at issue here. But your idiotic statement that Welles had no influence on anyone is so many shades of stupid I can't even begin to speak to it. Go learn your film history and we can talk some more. I noticed you casually didn't even comment on how Welles influenced the entire spectrum of film noir through his revolutionary techniques with camera, sound, and music. Don't care about that? How about KANE's influence on the New Wave generation, who unanimously picked it as the BEST FILM OF ALL TIME in Cahiers Du Cinema? I guess they were just intellectual snobs, too.


"Did Citizen Kane have broad cinematic landscape to it? Lucas took that to a level that Welles could only look at and stare in amazement. A Galaxy was created on screen,with unique worlds and creatures,as well as pioneering special effects. I would call that about as deep and focused as cinematography can get. "

You do realize that KANE wasn't a sci fi movie, don't you? It was a drama about a man's downfall through greed and ego. It was a very uniquely American story about capitalism. I don't think it required alien landscapes. This argument is utterly preposterous and, frankly, ignorant. How can you imply that Lucas is a better director than Welles on the simple fact that he created convincing aliens? Maybe if Welles ever did a sci fi movie they would be convincing, or if he had the effects available today. It's a completely ridiculous statement. By your line of thinking, I could say Welles is better than Lucas because Welles did a brillant recreation of 1900 America in MAGNIFICENT AMBERSON and Lucas didn't do that with ANH. You see how preposterous that logic is?


You would call that as "deep and focused as cinematography can get"? Well, after I stopped laughing hysterically and forwarded that statement to my cinematographer friends, I would like to ask: Do you even know what "deep focus" means? My guess is you have no clue, so I think you should stop before your foot gets any deeper.
(BTW, "deep focus" refers to a camera method where you overlight the set and stop down the focus in order to create spatial depth that's all clearly in focus)


"As far as Citizen Kane being regarded as the greatest or one of the greatest movies,do you really believe this is the general consesus"

Well, just three years ago, it was picked as the best film of all time by the AFI. Just two years ago, both LADY FROM SHANGHAI and TOUCH OF EVIL re

 

Please guys dont fight.

 

[EDIT - Looong post. I got carried away.
I agree with Bresson's post above -- he echoes many of my sentiments.]

Dath-Solo, you have every right to your opinion, but at the same time, we have every right to defend films/filmmakers we like as well. Just as if I criticized AOTC for this and that, one would have the right to step up and challenge my opinions.

First off, the music score. that was a false statement. As a musician of 24 years, I know a thing or two about music and it's origins. There were many MANY innovative scoring techniques that came out before 1941.

The problem here is the gap of 60+ years. Obviously, the scores of that era are not going to be as intricate, varied, and complex as today's scores. (though some came pretty close) Today, we have the advantage of over 100 years to perfect and expand on it. We have better equipment -- computers and synthesizers can write and edit notes for us rather than using paper and pencil.

As for the Bernard Hermmann score, I don't think Bresson was saying it easily TOPPED ANH. Both scores are amazing for how they lifted their respective pictures. What Bresson was saying was how influential and innovative Hermmann's score was for that era. In the age of the more bombastic, elaborate, louder and romantic film scores of the 1940s (Max Steiner, Miklos Roscza) Bernard Hermmann came along and offered something different for a change -- a score that sometimes bordered on the other spectrum. It's not supposed to be the in-your-face type of score, nor is it meant to be a score that uses "motifs" the way Star Wars does (to great effect btw). It was innovative for infusing darker, ominous tones, with surprising complexity and depth and subtlety. (Danny Elfman would be today's closest example of a Hermmann influence) It's the type of score you have to listen to closely, and hopefully those shadowy notes translate into a general mood. Also, notice in Citizen Kane the main theme (Kane's theme, if you will). Throughout the film it is played in different variations. Initially, during the scene with the parade of girls celebrating Kane's name, it is lighthearted and flashy, a reflection of the abundant wealth and arrogance of Kane. Later on, when Kane is walking the streets alone and depressed, the same tune turns more sinister and sour. Hermmann wisely and effectively altered the speed and tone of the main theme to reflect what was on screen. And that is a wonderful touch, something we see to this very day, even AOTC. (The brooding Emperor's theme that plays like heavy, slow thunder when Anakin confesses.)

I'm not saying one score is better than the other. I'm simply saying we should be a little fair to the films of that era. Of course, we all grew up with films from the last 10, 20, 30 years, so we're used to the style and will probably prefer it. But imagine if we were born in the 1900s, and we saw Citizen Kane as 30-40 year olds, I'd think you'll understand why Bernard Hermmann's score was so different and refreshing for its time.

The score in Citizen Kane has no life when compared to John Williams' scores IMO. Music is emotion,and the techniques used in Citizen Kane fall flat. Todays scores are almost like another actor with it's memorable scores(and Citizen Kane's score is not memorable to the vast majority. Another part that doesn't hold up.) Music is also sound,and I won't even get into the way Lucas has revolutionized sound,techniques that he didn't pick up from Citizen Kane I'm guessing. Just a guess.

We can't compare because they are not the same type of films. You shouldn't have even compared them because it makes it seem like a battle between the films when John Williams himself idolized composers of that era. Remember, the operatic score of ANH that splashed onto screens in 1977 was a throwback to the films of the 1940s -- the Steiners, the Alex Norths, the Korngolds...people in 1977 were not used to it, yet somehow embraced its vague familiarity. By praising ANH's score and downplayin

 

John Williams00

Perfectly and eloquently said. I was going to return and edit some of my comments towards what you're saying, but the sands of the hourglass...

Anyway, what I was referring to that made KANE's score revolutionary wasn't so much the music itself, but the application. There were great scores before 1941 (King Kong, The Sea Hawk, Gone with the Wind), but they used music much as silent films did: as wallpaper to background the drama. KANE and Herrmann added tones and mood. This was important in the development of film language as many of the farsighted filmmakers after Welles picked up the baton, so to speak.


And yes, KANE has a surprising number of effect shots. They're just not of the spaceship and alien variety. (And, to answer your question, movies like METROPOLIS and THINGS TO COME had generous use of mattes, etc.) Refer to the KANE DVD and Roger Ebert's excellent commentary. An example of a brillant matte shot: The scene where Kane fires his best friend for giving his singer/wife a bad review. Joseph Cotten is standing in the background talking to Kane who is in the extremem foreground. That is a matte shot! In order to give both actors in different planes of focus equal weight, Welles had to use a matte! For a simple dialogue scene. That's using special effects to serve the emotional life of the story. Ebert also points out all the amazing mattes and opticals used to achieve the fractured structure. He even points out that the movie is as "revolutionary for its time as STAR WARS was in 1977".

"For a movie like Citizen Kane to begin with the death of its main character, and to have his character expanded upon through innovative newsreels and other character point-of-views, THAT was innovative and bold. I don't quite get your LOTR example though."

Yes, KANE's fractured backwards structure has had no impact on film history, because movies like SUNSET BLVD, THE KILLING, PULP FICTION, AMERICAN BEAUTY, MEMENTO are movies of no significance whatsoever.


And as for Darth Solo's contention that KANE has a short shelf life and was of no significance to filmmaking, here is a quote in ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY, which picked it as the second best movie of all time:

"So entrenched is Charlie Kane at the top of the Greatest Movies lists that neophytes may come away wondering what all the fuss is about. But that's a measure of how thorougly Orson Welles' once scandalous movie debut triumphed over the system that destroyed its creator. KANE didn't revolutionize the way moveis were made--although deep focus camera work and overlapping dialogue acquired powerful artistic cache in Welle's hands--so much as he changed what KINDS of stories were told and how. Breezing into the toy train set that was Hollywood, the boy genius took as his first subject the life of a media mogul...and found behind the tycoon's facade a hall of mirrors that reflected the creative visionary, teh controlling lover, the blowhard politico, the lost child, and the tired old man. KANE is the first great work of pessimissm to come out of Hollywood..but what's remarkable 60 years later is the sheer, joyous verve of the thing. He was only 25..."

Yeah, I guess the world's forgotten about CITIZEN KANE.

 

because movies like SUNSET BLVD, THE KILLING, PULP FICTION, AMERICAN BEAUTY, MEMENTO are movies of no significance whatsoever.

American Beauty and Memento will be forgotten.

 

"Just as if I criticized AOTC for this and that, one would have the right to step up and challenge my opinions. "

Yes, JohnWilliams00, I love it when people have no factual basis for their posts so they go into the whole "It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it" rant. They completely forget that the reasons for internet chat sites is to discuss and express opinions...but you have to back them up for them to hold any weight.

 

this is what you get when you have critiques of AOTC and lucas in general by star wars fans who have absoluely no idea of cinema history.

well said folks.

im impressed.

 

"Memento will be forgotten." I respectfully disagree but an ironic statement nonetheless.

 

LOL...I had my long post all typed out,and was kicked offline while I was proof reading.Here's the quick jist of it,and then I'm going to sleep.

Bresson-please get your facts strait about what I say before you continue. You may need some reading and comprehension courses. I'm not quoting everything again,but go back,read my posts,and then read your responses.
one quote:
"but your idiotic statements on how Welles had no influence on anyone is so many shades of stupid ,I can't even begin to speak of it"

I found this funny,especially since you stated that right after you quoted me acknowledging the two you mentioned. Yeah ,that ignorant theme was there alright. Maybe you should have posted the quote where I said what you say I said. What...couldn't find it?. Nice way to try and post half of the quote for the effect you wanted.Oops...don't choke on your foot.

Actually, Deep Focus cinematography can be accomplished in many ways. Color is used to seperate the elements in a frame,selective focus can also do this,and supertight framing can give the illusion. More than one way to skin a cat. Tell your cinematography friends to stop laughing and they might learn something.

As far as comparing scores,Johnwilliams hit on my point about why it doesn't stand up by today's standards. As far as my preferences and opinion, the music didn't add any weight to the scenes,or at least not as well as I would have liked. My opinion, and I'll go with that, or should I have another's opinion. It's pretty sad that others can't express their veiws like you did Johnwilliams.

On to shelf life. When Citizen Kane came out, it was revered for it's achievements. Those achievements were eclipsed time and time again throughout the years,as would be expected. Nothing against Kane. Most of the movie going public has no interest in watching a black and white movie,with pacing that is slower than what is considered "popular cinema" This does not mean that they are not as intellegent as someone who does enjoy such movies. That was so pompus to even suggest such a thing. I don't think anyone would argue that a rerelease of Citizen Kane would generate the excitement or box office that Star Wars did in 1997. I'm also not veiwing Citizen Kane for anything but the entertainment value that I got from it. That should be enough, but then I'm told that I have to watch it for this,and it does this,and I have to love it as an art form because of this. Well I have news. No I don't. I'll decide why I have to love a movie,and what I consider art. I watch movies for entertainment. The art form stands better when it entertains. Citizen Kane didn't entertain me enough. Why that would be a problem with anyone is beyond me. Did it entertain you? Well then be happy about it. Can't imagine why someone wants to tell me what my opinion SHOULD be.My favorite band is the Beatles. They had more influence on music than any other performer in history,but if someone doesn't like them I don't need to defend them. I'm confident that the music defends it just fine,and if it doesn't, I'm not going to force it down someone's throat. That's called respect for individual taste. I pay my own bills thank you. It would be different if someone insulted my wife. I will defend her,but to foam at the mouth over a movie? Well, it takes all kinds I guess. I need sleep,but if you so desire,I will give you a detailed,scene by scene critique of Citizen Kane,but not tonight. BTW...what did GL do to revolutionize sound?(hint:THX)ESB and TTT is a better example of fragmented storytelling,although ANH and LOTR have those elements,just not as prominent. Here's a little something you can check out. go over to boxoffice mojo's forums and see how many people listed it as the most over-rated movie.Those opinions should not have any bearing on any else's,just like that EW quote shouldn't,and doesn't have any on mine. Hope I didn't forget anything,but I'm sure someone will remind me.goodnight all.Peace.

 

Darth Solo, I'm with you.

Bresson, you really are a stuck up individual. You can't stand the fact that the points Darth Solo makes are his opinion but are obviously backed up by evidence of why he feels like this. You are trying to shove your opinion down his throat as if Citizen Kane is "the best film ever made, FACT.". Its an opinion, but you are trying to make it fact. I think Kane is a brilliant film, but I don't listen to critics who praise it because its old and "classic". You sound like an old hack that can't really make up their own opinion and just type what they have read elsewhere. You don't back up what you say and you manipulate what Solo said.

Star Wars was a revolutionary film, and always will be, more so than Kane. Every blockbuster that comes out (gee, there aren't many of them, are there ) has been influenced by Star Wars. What does Citizen Kane have to offer these days??????

 

Thanks Darth_Fisto. You seem like a very level headed person. Well, my baby woke up,which means I'm up again. Johnwilliams, I'm sorry I forgot to give you a few early examples of deep focus. Nosferatu(shot using many different techniques) and Metropolis are the only two coming to mind right now. Also,if the truth be known, the guy that did the cinematography on Kane had been developing his technique of deep focus on his films that proceeded Kane. As a much high profile film,Kane gets the credit,but Welles hired him because of his previous work on other movies.

 

Citizen Kane is a movie only a critic could love. Everyone loves Star Wars . . .














. . . except the people who don't.

 

Cheers Darth Solo
I hope I didn't come off as a basher, cos that was not my intention. I love movies, its just that Star Wars has revolutionised the way films are made. I mean, what fifth film in a series takes (or will end up taking) $300m domestic?
Only Star Wars.

Kane will always be remembered as being a classic film. I hate the word "classic". When a film is really old, it is a classic in some peoples minds. It like in the 1940's and 1950's people never made bad films. Quite the opposite.

Still, I'm tired, so I'll be going to bed soon to get up for work in, oh, 6 hours.

 

No, you didn't come off as a basher,quite the opposite.

 

Hmm...this is interesting...no bashing/gushing about AOTC, just bashing/gushing about Citizen Kane. An interesting twist, I'll admit.
And here I was all excited to get flamed by the AOTC gushers.
Oh well, haven't seen Citizen Kane. Maybe another day.

 

I just want to discuss the phenomenon of why so many people are claiming AOTC is a boring film.

The fact is, outside of film critics and a few rotten apples on the internet, there aren't many people claiming AOTC is boring. I have yet to meet a single individual in person who didn't thoroughly enjoy the film. All my family, friends, acquaintences, and co-workers loved it.

I think a better question is, why are a minority of overly critical individuals trying to convince everybody else that AOTC was boring?

 

AOTC is a hideously boring film from the chase onwards. It picks up only during the lightsabre fight.

The arena battle is very badly executed.

 

"I think a better question is, why are a minority of overly critical individuals trying to convince everybody else that AOTC was boring?"

Because there are a lot of pricks in the world. They are probably sour Star Trek fans that scour these boards. "endboss" is one of them, a sour individual, an obviously young kid or immature individual that loves to put other people down. The world is a bad place, and Star Wars is the salvation.

 

Kerobi2, you would be surprised as to how many out and out gushers/defenders of the flick during its production phase came to realise how horrible it turned out in the end after watching it. Yours truly belongs to that category.

I am having a discussion, I have no reason to cause any uproar.

 

Re: Star Wars vs. Citizen Kane

There should be no doubt in anybody's mind that both films (A New Hope and Citizen Kane) are tremendously influential films in their own right. The primary difference is that Star Wars films can be enjoyed by the masses while fans of Citizen Kane tend to be more versed in the art of film. Sit down your average Joe Schmoe and he'd probably enjoy any Star Wars film over Citizen Kane simply because with Citizen Kane, if you don't know what you're supposed to appreciate about it, quite a bit of it can go right over your head.

But trying to determine which franchise is "superior" by checking off a list of influences is ridiculous. Has everybody forgotten that Citizen Kane was a momentous flop in its day? You can certainly make a good argument about the film's artistic merits, but I find it difficult to call one of the biggest flops of all time the best film of all time.

Now before anybody accuses me of bashing Citizen Kane, I personally think it is a great film. In my opinion it's not the best of all time, but that doesn't keep me from enjoying it and recognizing its undeniable influences on the world of cinema. But when it comes right down to it, I'd rather watch Star Wars over Citizen Kane any day of the week.

As for Citizen Kang, now that's what I call a classic!

"We could always vote for a third party candidate!"
"Go ahead. Throw your vote away! Ha ha ha!"

 

AOTC is Boring, Compared to What?
By Tokyo Xtreme


AOTC is a boring film written and directed by George Lucas. It stars Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christensen as two Jedi Knights, who are the guardians of peace and justice throughout the galaxy. Their adventures are downhill from there when a girl's ship blows up. This ship is Padme Amidala's ship, portrayed by Natalie Portman. Luckily, she was not in the ship but unluckily her decoy was in the ship. Her decoy died just outside the ship.

This was not so boring because the ship exploded very well and a droid fell down. The decoy's dying dialogue was not boring, but it was funny because it was funny words she said. Then she died and the girl whose ship it was ran off with Jango Fett's brother.

Next was Obi and Ani riding in an elevator. That was pretty boring, because their dialogue was self-aware referential banter that wished it was in The Empire Strikes Back. This is because Anakin Skywalker mentioned a "gundark", and because Han Solo once told Luke Skywalker that Luke looked strong enough to pull the ears off of one of those beasts. Apparently, Gundarks have nests, and Obi fell into one at one point during his Jedi career. Anakin saved him somehow, and they eventually made it to that elevator where they would later discuss the event. Ewan McGregor was thinking about the movie Pulp Fiction during this scene.

Next, Ani starts drooling over the senator girl whose ship exploded earlier. Anakin is a poor, pathetic little boy whom most women in the galaxy would consider to be creepy. But Ani has mind tricks and force chokes, so the girl starts falling in love with him. This is boring because I really don't care about creepy guys or the girls who fall in love with them. Ani and Obi drive around for a while in a yellow space-car, and then they have a drink. Later, Ani takes the girl on a date while Obi plays darts on Kamino.

The date goes pretty well for Anakin, and they have dinner and look at a fireplace and talk. This is boring because they only look at a fireplace and talk. Obi also talks on Kamino, but there's no fireplace. This part is pretty interesting because Obi and the guy Jango look pretty tense. Obi suspects that Jango is lying, but a Jedi should not be so impolite to just say it directly.

While Anakin has a special dream, Jango and Obi check out the Slave I's sweet sound system. Obi is pretty impressed by the total wattage of the unit, which is so powerful that nearby asteroids collapse. Jango tells Obi that there is a good deal on stereo parts on Geonosis, so they go there. Jango is so excitable though that Obi loses track of him and gets stuck on a mountain. This is boring because I don't care about stereo parts.

Anakin slices up a tent and then some desert people. He cries about it later, and then the girl starts to think the date is going badly. She doesn't say anything at first, because remember her ship blew up earlier and she doesn't have a ride home. Obi gets arrested spying on a members-only card game, and is sentenced to suspension in purple fuzz. This is boring because purple fuzz is inherently boring. The old guy with the beard repeats some dialogue from The Empire Strikes Back, and then Obi decides to join in on the fun. The old guy tires of the game and leaves, and Obi gets lonely. This is boring, because The Empire Strikes Back had a really cool carbon-freezing set and the set in AOTC is just purple fuzz.

Eventually, Anakin flies to Geonosis to post bail for his pal Obi, but instead gets caught trespassing in a factory. Fortunately for everyone, the old man is benevolent, and lets them watch this cartoon about swordsmen fighting with alien creatures. The cartoon is strange at first, but the girl gets bored. The old man smiles and a whole bunch of robots fight with the swordsmen and animals. Ani thinks it's cool, but Obi wishes aloud for armored people and ships to join in. The old man appears to shake his head in disappointment, but he is really chuckling to himself at Obi's frankness. A few moments later, armored people and

 

Thank you SO much for that failed attempt at a humorous-bashing plot summary. That wasn't a complete waste of space, was it? You really need to not post here anymore.