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AOTC is slowly becoming my favorite film. Is it for anyone else?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarkLordoftheSith14, Sep 13, 2007.

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  1. Darth_Laudrup

    Darth_Laudrup Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 7, 2004
    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] =D=

    so true so true
     
  2. DarthMatter

    DarthMatter Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 12, 2004
    Couple of thoughts...

    One, I wonder if those who hate-hate-hate the love story had actually hated the other one, in TESB? It was every bit as high school and cornball ("I don't know where you get your delusions, laser brain"). It was shorter and not tied in so strongly to the plot, but just as cheesy. Although, the "excited" and kissing scenes on the Falcon were great! I think both the love strories are kinda cheesy and cringy, and that is what they need to be, because that's what falling in love is, right? The AOTC one is romantic, but really it's guilty, forbidden, etc. The TESB one is much more standard, and doesn't really affect the plot, and has a predictable quality to it.

    Two, I've always thought the Padme/Anakin one was supposed to be awkward, guilty, full of stolen moments, and so forth. I think there is tremendous chemistry between the characters (and actors), but they are definitely unskilled in romance. More importantly, they each pursue something they know they aren't supposed to pursue, and the little wooing games they play work perfectly for the story to create dramatic, emotional and sexual tension. I mean, the fate of the galaxy is turned on their playing around - but even from their own points of view, they are doing what they know is kinda wrong and stupid while they see a run up to war going on around them. The undercurrent in watching Padme is that she is totally distracted from where she started in the film - being a vocal opponent of what was happening - but she's in love. Watching Anakin is seeing him go from a bored teenager to being super-charged by his feelings.

    I mean, for those of you who say you hate it, haven't you ever done anything in your life that was wrong, naughty, forbidden, or just out of reach, and for which you could pay heavily? Have you ever taken a big risk (or even a little one)? I know I have - so many times, in love and life - and I can tell you it's a rush all to its own. You feel more alive during that rush and resist any chance to stop it. That's what they are feeling, that they are coming back to life.
     
  3. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    As well as no jurisdiction to do so.
     
  4. GrandAdmiral_Frank

    GrandAdmiral_Frank Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 26, 2003
    I like AOTC a lot more nowadays. I think that Geonosis is hands down the best battle on the ground we have for SW>
     
  5. MN_JEDI

    MN_JEDI Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2003
    One reason why the love story in ESB is more believeable than ATOC is that Han and Leia actually were in each others company for the previous 3 years or so. And all their feelings towards one another (both positive and negative) came out in full force during the movie.

    In ATOC, Anakin and Padme were not in contact for the last 10 years and the last she saw him he was a little kid. Yeah I know it's a movie, but the whole idea of them together would have been a little more convincing if they had decent chemistry and dialogue.
     
  6. Darth_Laudrup

    Darth_Laudrup Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 7, 2004
    I like almost everything about AOTC, except for the "romantic" Padme/Anakin scenes & 3PO in the droid factory (In my book 3PO is not agile and able to hold on to a flying droid and his lines are not that lame).

    All the action scenes are great, I love the scenes were Anakin is on the conveyor belt fighting droids, I love Kenobi vs. Jango, I love the speeder chase, I love the battle in the arena even though Jedi tactics seem to be very very lousy, I love the origin of the storm troopers and I love the visuals of the movie. Planets, vehicles, ships, weapons, locations etc. are all amazing. The plot is even good.

    If only those horrible Anakin/Padme scenes had been done better, it would have been one of my favourite star wars movies.
     
  7. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    Morality trumps law, in my view. Especially the law of an oblivious, stagnating government that went on to welcome a dictator into office.

    But that?s all I?ll say on this issue. Lord knows I?ve debated the Jedi/slavery connection enough in the past (check my post history for proof, especially the epic thread from the prequel forum entitled "Lucas: 'The Jedi were corrupted' -- So then the 'bringing balance' door swings both ways??)

    Also, I agree with the notion that some degree of awkward anti-chemistry was essential to the Anakin/Padme relationship, as it makes sense from a textual standpoint that both characters are not exactly well-versed in normal, romantic interactions. Not that I?m giving the acting an Oscar endorsement or anything (indeed, I still think that Portman was by far the weakest link in the entire trilogy), but I agree that the ?love? scenes were not unwatchable. Truth be told, I prefer the Naboo romance to the opening action sequence of RotS, and its not-so-exciting escapades involving buzz droids, ray shields, and giant scaffolding sections that crush Obi-Wan like a bug without leaving so much as a bruise.
     
  8. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

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    Dec 17, 2000
    Here's my BIG problem with the "They're young so the romance is SUPPOSED to be awkward" argument: John Williams's score.

    The music underneath these scenes plays like big, epic, beautiful romance, with not a hint of the awkwardness that shows up in the actors' performances. Everything in the way those scenes are put together suggests that the audience is supposed to take every bit of this romance seriously, which tells me that the problem is not my (and many others') inability to interpret the film, but poor scripting and acting. If the lines they exchange are really supposed to be as comically bad as they are, then something in the music, cinematography, or editing should indicate that the movie knows this. Because as it stands, the movie seems to be saying, "Oh, isn't this the most romantic exchange ever? That's right, Ani, sand is awful. Why don't you just take her right here and now?"

    The 'laser brain' line does sound silly, but it's in a silly scene. Chewbacca even laughs afterwards. Anakin and Padme's goofiest dialogue happens when the romance is being played straight and serious. If you can give me other examples of places where the Han and Leia romance is awkward like the Anakin/Padme one, and where it's not intentional and played for comedic effect, please do.
     
  9. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 17, 2006
    That discordance is precisely what underlines the awkwardness.
     
  10. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

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    Dec 17, 2000
    Yes, but nothing within the film suggests that this is being done intentionally. If it was deliberate, it would be a break in filmic convention (and would support your 'epic theatre' theory), but nowhere else in the film (or saga) does this happen but the romantic scenes between Anakin and Padme.

    Airplane is an example of a movie where big music is used intentionally to great comedic effect. But that film is continuously and obviously winking at the audience, so that you know the contrast between the absurd action and dialogue and the actor's completely serious reactions to it all is deliberate.

    EDIT:
    I'm also curious about whether Lucas's whole "the acting is SUPPOSED to be bad" argument started before or after people started complaining about the acting. Because if I was making a movie that turned cinematic convention on its head by featuring intentionally bad writing and acting, I'd want to let audiences and critics know ahead of time, to avoid misinterprteing my work as just poor craftsmanship.
     
  11. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 17, 2006
    Intentional shmintentional. There is no single set of unifying filmic conventions. One of my other theories is that the score reflects directly upon the will of the Force. The awkwardness is evident in the acting--the couple obviously isn't fit for romance. But the Force (or the plot, if you buy that) is pushing them toward a romance regardless. They MUST fall in love because Luke and Leia (and the OT) "already" exist. It's going to be forced (pun sort of intended) no matter what Anakin and Padmé want to do, so the score (plot, Force) wants and needs one thing at the expense of the characters. There are other examples of deliberately ironic music, though. The most obvious one is the "celebration" music at the end of TPM, which is actually just the Emperor's theme. AOTC has a lot of triumphant, "happy" music playing during scenes of moral corruption. Some things in the prequels go with the flow of things set up in the OT and other things run completely against the inevitable grain of the OT, like the AOTC "romance." The music isn't always going to be ironic, but in this case, I think it obviously is.

    I don't see it in the same light as "cheesy cornball," even though it is cheesy. I see it as "courtly love" speak flailing miserably in its death throes. I still don't get that ANYONE could interpret the "love" scenes as failed attempts at portraying realistic romance. They are successful attempts at portraying unrealistic romance.

    Just WATCH the end of the scene where Anakin first kisses Padmé. No, really. Just LOOK at it CLOSELY, please.

    After that horribly awkward smooch, which Lucas does not say is "cool" or "romantic," Padmé ROLLS HER EYES and Anakin gives a clear "WTF?"

    It's an intentionally awkward "romance" that fails in the film because it is completely forced by the existence of the OT. There, I said it.
     
  12. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

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    Dec 17, 2000
    Yes you did. You finally admitted what I've suspected about many PT apologists for some time; that they think the franchise would be better off if somehow Lucas had been able to make the PT (as it exists, not with 70s constraints) first, and made episodes IV-VI in a mode more fitting with the nonsense of the PT.
     
  13. BaronLandoCalrissian

    BaronLandoCalrissian Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 14, 2006
    I get the intentional awkwardness, he's a teenage boy, blah blah, I can even appreciate it. But I've never heard a real explanation for Padme's side of things. Is she an idiot? Is she under a spell? Yes, guys say dumb stuff, but why does it actually work on this girl? And the guy going on a killing rampage usually doesn't help. It's a movie, it has to work cinematically, it's not enough to have deeper aspirations, Ed Wood had those too. I saw it three times in a huge packed theater and HUNDREDS of people laughed at those scenes each time, it was like a hit comedy. At the same place where Phantom Menace had a genuinely positive reaction three years earlier. Those scenes didn't work, whatever the intent. They make me laugh, and if Matrix were here, he'd laugh too.
     
  14. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 1, 2004
    First, I did not come across those Lucas quotes untill long after I saw the film so they did not influence me at all.

    Second when I saw the film I could clearly see that the film was trying to be in part, a mystery film but I felt that it did not do a very good job at it.
    One trailer is even labeled "mystery". Dooku is mentioned in the crawl as the "mysterious count Dooku". In the first part of the film you have the mystery of who is trying to kill Padme but that mystery has been answered almost before it starts with Padme naming Dooku.
    In the second part of the film you have the mystery of Kamino and the clone army and the dead jedi master Sifo-Dyas. That is not really resolved at films end but in RotS it is never talked about so that entire plot thread is left hanging.

    Yes one could figure that Palpatine used a dead jedi's name to order the clones and that Sifo-Dyas naver had anything to do with it. But then one would wonder why the jedi do not dig deeper as they seem to know that Sifo-Dyas was killed BEFORE the clones were ordered so he could not have been the one to place the order.

    Bottomline for me is that the film was trying to have some sense of mystery going, with Dooku, with the army but these elements were not done very well.



    I looked over the film and the dialogue is not exactly as written,

    QUEEN JAMILLIA: How many systems have joined Count Dooku
    and the separatists?

    PADMÉ: Thousands. And more are leaving the Republic every
    day. If the Senate votes to create an army, I'm sure it's
    going to push us into a civil war.

    SIO BIBBLE: It's unthinkable! There hasn't been a full
    scale war since the formation of the Republic!

    QUEEN JAMILLIA: Do you see any way, through negotiations,
    to bring the separatists back into the Republic?

    PADMÉ: Not if they feel threatened.
    The separatists don't
    have an army, but if they are provoked, they will move to
    defend themselves. I'm sure of that. And with no time or
    money to build an army, my guess is they will turn to the
    Commerce Guilds or the Trade Federation for help.


    The bolded words are rhoughly what is said in the film.

    So yes there is a conncetion between the TF and the separatists but lets look at this closely.

    Padme is clear that if the republic creates an army then Dooku, as the leader of the separatists, will feel threatened and will have run to the TF and commerce guilds for help and this will start a galactic civil war.
    Padme is less sure if war can be avoided with diplomacy but she has not given up.

    But lets look at the prospect of a galatic civil war and who would benefit from it from what Padme knows.
    Dooku? Only if the separatists win. Same with the TF and commerce guilds.
    So why then would Dooku want to force a war by attemtpting to kill one of the persosn that could stop it. From what is said it sounds like the separatists and thus Dooku have not totally alligned themselves with the TF and the others and perhpas they might not want to but if they are faced with an army of the republic they will have no choice. So the MCA will force the sep
     
  15. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2006
    That's not what I mean. I'm saying that the themes and structure of the PT actively riff on the fact that the OT came first.
     
  16. DarthMatter

    DarthMatter Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 12, 2004
    That proves little, other than it was intended to be goofy and cornball, which was part of my point.
    You never knew a girl who was attracted to the "bad boy"?? That seems to be Padme's weakness, and once she's attracted, she want's to help him. Happens all the time.
     
  17. RamRed

    RamRed Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2002
    I get the intentional awkwardness, he's a teenage boy, blah blah, I can even appreciate it. But I've never heard a real explanation for Padme's side of things. Is she an idiot? Is she under a spell? Yes, guys say dumb stuff, but why does it actually work on this girl?

    Are you projecting your own feelings upon Padme's character? It seems like it.


    As for the theory that Padme is attracted to "bad boys", I find it amusing. It's interesting on how so many people cannot accept that Padme had simply fallen in love with Anakin. They seem to have this need to find reasons that their feelings for one another was something other than love.

     
  18. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2000
    But you've been using those quotes to support your contention that Dooku is 'supposed' to be an ambiguous figure whose allegiance is unknown to the audience.

    The film inarguably contains elements of mystery; whether you find them effective is a purely subjective response. I personally find the mystery aspects of AOTC to be extremely intriguing and a big part of what I find so fascinating about the episode. Further, Dooku is mysterious in that we, the audience, can perceive he is an antagonist, but the Jedi themselves -- the protagonists -- do not know this. There is nothing unusual or erroneous about this cinematic cliche: the audience is privvy to facts to which the characters in the story are not. I readily concede that there is little mystery to the 'bad-guy' character of Dooku, but I simply fail to perceive this as a flaw in the film. You may employ all the trailers, interviews, and marketing materials you choose to further your contention that we, the audience, are meant to see Dooku as ambiguous; but within the film itself, his mysterious nature is obviously a problem only for the sight-clouded Jedi.


    This is another discussion altogether, but in brief, the mystery as to who ordered the clones is made all too clear when Sidious delivers Order 66 in ROTS. We don't know the details of the transaction, and indeed they do not matter; all we are given to know on this score is that 1) Dooku is Tyranus, whom Jango fingered as the man who contracted him as the model for the clones; and 2) Dooku/Tyranus works for Sidious. 2 + 2 = ?


    One does wonder that, yes. The salient point here is that the Jedi's ability to use the Force is diminished, including and especially their farsightedness when it comes to perceiving the Dark Side. They cannot see the hand of the DS in the ordering of the clones; they 'know' that a Jedi ordered them, and since the need to use the army is great, they accept the clones as a mysterious gift and get on with the business of defending the galaxy... or so they believe. Of course, the Jedi might have 'dug deeper' into the matter, but in the course of a 2+ hour film this detail is not pressing, and is best left to the EU and/or the imagination of the audience.

    Only because you are not willing to use your imagination to fill in the details. You are all too ready and willing to imagine all kinds of counter-scenarios that argue against what the film is showing us, but you are decidedly unwilling to use that same faculty (ie, your imaginative powers) to answer your own nitpicky questions. IMHO.

     
  19. DarthMatter

    DarthMatter Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 12, 2004
    I don't know who you're arguing with, but it isn't me. I think she fell in love, and it had started in TPM. I also think she might be attracted to the bad boy in Anakin - it fits the facts, but I'm willing to let it be as simple as love. There's even less reason why Han and Leia are attracted - oh right, there's that bad boy thing with them, too. She likes Han "because I'm a scoundrel", as he puts it. It's not so different with Padme and Anakin. She loves him partly because he's dark and troubled.
     
  20. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    I think the problematic nature of the Anakin/Padme relationship is deeper than ?they?re so young.? It?s not simply youth, but the holistic nature of their lives up to this point and time. Anakin was taken from his only real family as a ten year old boy, thrust into an environment that shunned attachment to such a considerable degree that he was essentially urged to forget his mother, and then all of a sudden in comes Padme, who simultaneously serves as a connection to the life he lost as well as a potential for a future source of emotional fulfillment. Given that Anakin could never completely integrate into the Jedi way, it makes perfect sense that even a relationship built on honest attraction is going to contain a considerable degree of possessive, even obsessive intent on his part. Hence the reason for Anakin?s ornate odes in which he show does show his interest, albeit in an awkward, extremely dramatic manner. The thing is, though, that from his point of view his words aren?t really over-dramatic, as his brand of severity is stemming from the very fact that the Jedi forbid the relationship he wants. As for Padme, well, she?s been heading governments since a teenager. When you?re carrying that much responsibility for so long a time (and at so young an age), I think it?s obvious that flirty, fun relationships with boys likely took a back seat to being responsible for billions of lives.

    Concerning the score, I myself can?t say that I ?hear? the music as signifying a single set theme such as true and absolute love coming to fruition. Perhaps if I listened to the score before ever watching the film, but seeing as I didn?t, pieces like Williams? ?Across the Stars? theme are inextricably linked to the relationship as portrayed on film. Sometimes a feeling of awkwardness is involved, like when the music abruptly stops after Padme suddenly rethinks the first kiss. Other times I appreciate the playful tone of the water scene, as well as a subtle but present undercurrent of tension as a conversation built on goofy flirting quickly transitions to a discussion of dictatorships. Finally, the love theme blares during the wedding scene, but for good reason here I read this scene more as epic tragedy than epic love, especially with the wonderful shot of Padme grasping onto Anakin?s robotic, skeletal hand. She?s marrying a man who?s already part dead. That is tragedy, and that?s what I think of when I hear Williams? ?Across the Stars.?
     
  21. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    There's a huge difference between a scoundrel and a guy who she knows mercilessly slaughtered women and children.
     
  22. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Yet it's not so black and white as that, because it's savage, animalistic, murderous Tuskens we're talking about here, as opposed to his fellow human beings. Anakin's (mis)deeds are therefore comprehensible, perhaps especially by Padme who has witnessed the slaughter of her own people and can empathize with his thirst for vengeance.

    Contrast her accepting reaction to the news of his Tusken spree with her rather more repulsed response, in ROTS, to Kenobi's account of Anakin's Youngling-o-cide.
     
  23. Jamiebacca

    Jamiebacca Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 17, 2003
    Just ask Cleigg Lars the difference.
     
  24. Darth_Laudrup

    Darth_Laudrup Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 7, 2004
    When in doubt you should generally ask the Lars family. Cliegg, Owen and Beru are all wise and down to earth farmers.
     
  25. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 17, 2003
    With all due respect, when did Padme witness this event?
     
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